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Thread: Brahman

  1. #1

    Brahman

    I hope you can help me,
    When you worship Brahman or Saguna Brahman and Brahman is everything, then you worship everything. So all Devas too. But do they know that? Do they know me?


    And when I pray to Brahman for rain... does the prayer go to Indra or does Brahman inform Indra or does Brahman Indra make it and Indra doesnt know why?

    Hope you know what I mean...

  2. #2
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    Re: Brahman

    Vannakkam: The answer will vary, depending on school. (as usual) In my school, they know me better than I know them, or I know myself. During darshan, they're looking back. A common vision in mystic bhakti Hinduism is to have the murthi wink at you. But then, there is less focus on the devas being Brahman than in Advaita.

    Aum Namasivaya

  3. #3
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    Re: Brahman

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    And when I pray to Brahman for rain... does the prayer go to Indra or does Brahman inform Indra or does Brahman Indra make it and Indra doesnt know why?
    Who is asking this question?
    Would it not be proper to introduce yourself before asking questions?
    Why don't you tell us as to what is your opinion about this situation?

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 01 May 2015 at 04:16 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Brahman

    Oh sorry,
    the non-english guy did overlook.
    I´ll do tomorrow

  5. #5
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    Re: Brahman

    Namaste PT,

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    I hope you can help me,
    When you worship Brahman or Saguna Brahman and Brahman is everything, then you worship everything. So all Devas too. But do they know that? Do they know me?
    "Sarva khalu idam Brahman" ==> This says that Everything is Brahman. If you and I are both Brahman, why don't you know what I know and vice-versa ? So, there is more to the Truth than only the above statement of the Vedas. When we say that "Everything is Brahman" .. we are talking about Nirguna Brahman which is the substratum of everything in this universe, per Advaita. However, that is the highest reality or the Absolute Truth. We cannot deal with the Absolute Reality i.e. Nirguna Brahman. Why ? No practical dealing is possible when there is no duality. So, when you are asking this question or praying to Brahman you are actually acting in Duality i.e. on the plane of relative Reality. Relative Reality is the plane where we all are and all devas are. ... and there as you and I act as different beings, devas too do. But in that case, what happens to Brahman ... has it got transformed into us and all beings and has lost its status as Brahman ? Advaita VedAnta says that Nirguna Brahman is changeless and it is the witness of everything in our relative plane of existence.

    And when I pray to Brahman for rain... does the prayer go to Indra or does Brahman inform Indra or does Brahman Indra make it and Indra doesnt know why?
    As soon as you pray, Saguna Brahman comes into picture because we cannot deal with Nirguna Brahman. .. and your prayer will be answered on merit. You need not pray separately to Indra / VAyu / Agni ... once you pray to Brahman, it is enough and sufficient as far as your prayer is considered and for any action needed on the prayer. Brahman need not become Indra for making rains ... Brahman is Indra, Brahman is VAyu and Brahman is Agni. It is One God alone which is worshiped in different forms and names.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #6

    Re: Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    I hope you can help me,
    When you worship Brahman or Saguna Brahman and Brahman is everything, then you worship everything. So all Devas too. But do they know that? Do they know me?


    And when I pray to Brahman for rain... does the prayer go to Indra or does Brahman inform Indra or does Brahman Indra make it and Indra doesnt know why?

    Hope you know what I mean...
    Namaste PestThurse,

    [My personal opinion as a polytheist, let no one take offense of it]

    That is an excellent question!

    Brahman is source of all and in all, but that does not make Brahman the most effective source to get something very specific. If you specifically want something for your pet, will you go the supermarket or a shop for pets? If you want help with school will you ask someone knowledgeable or pray to God?

    Brahman is non-specific, that means that Brahman is only the best source for non-specific things. For instance if you want Moksha, which lies beyond this world, you want to turn your attention beyond this world. Because turning attention to the world will bind you to the world. Nirguna Brahman would then be the logical choice. Saguna Brahman is the logical choice when you want Mukti, seeing God in every aspect of Nature.

    But If you want sunlight, it is more practical to open the curtains and let the Sun in than pray to Brahman. The Devas help us with practical things in life. It is best to see them as very honorable dear friends. If treated with utmost respect they will listen and help you. Devas are specialized sources as well. You do not go to the grocery for bread, that is the specialty of the baker. With the Devas it is the same. Your Isht-Deva is your most personal friend who will always try to help you, most willing, but not always most suited for specific requests.

    When you pray to Brahman directly the prayer does not go to any Deva as you surpass them. If your pet shop sells products from a factory, and you go to the manufacturer, you get it from where the pet shop gets it itself. The pet shop is however a more effective way of getting it, its very nature makes it a filter through which this particular thing expresses itself.

    My very personal view: Though some people only want to pray to Brahman directly, I think there can also lie a certain vanity in directing only to the highest. Something like: I will not speak to lower dignitaries, only the King alone! Of course we are deep down Brahman, but so are the dignitaries. We must not forget that. We should not put ourselves above others. Going past your boss to his boss, thus ignoring you boss, this may be effective, but you should not be surprised your boss will no longer help you.

    There is a story from Ramakrishna about a student who was taught by his guru that Brahman is in all creatures. Walking home, he was deeply impressed and delighted by that idea, reminding himself continuously that in everything he saw was Brahman. Then an elephant keeper came running towards him shouting: Danger danger, elephant on the loose. The student so full of love for everything in Nature carrying Brahman walked on and was trampled by the elephant. When he lay there fumbled in the bushes his master came along and asked him, why he did not flee to the side of the road? He said to his master: After your words I could only see Brahman in the elephant. Then the master said: But Brahman was also in the keeper warning you, why did you not listen to Brahman in him?

    As I see it: We may or may not want to understand that to want things directly and not through the proper channels signifies greed. When a thief sees something beneficial with his eyes his hands want to take it. He does not want to go to the slower process of first doing hard work earning money, then use that money to go to a store looking for the thing, buying it and transporting it home. He wants instant satisfaction. We want to ask ourselves in each case what is the proper channel for what we want.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 01 May 2015 at 10:03 AM.

  7. #7

    Re: Brahman

    Done.

    These answers are very helpful. Thanks to all!
    But a little bit more would be pretty cool ...

  8. #8

    Re: Brahman

    Namaste All,

    In my opinion "Avyaydya" has given the best answer to "PestThurse 's" question.

    Avyaydya I simply love your answer.

    Namaste PestThurse,

    I would like to add one more thing, your question seems to be more focused on Advaita, however please do not take Advaita to be taken as the sole philosophy in Hinduism. There are many philosophies within Hinduism.

    Even Madhva believes that everything is Brahman but he interprets it as everything is dependent on Brahman. So this world according to him is dependent on Brahman.
    Jiva's are a part of Brahman, according to him Brahman is Saguna and there is no Nirguna Brahman. So even though Brahman is Saguna the world is still considered as a part of Brahman.

    Jiva Goswami from the Bhedabheda point of view says that this whole world is an infinitesimal part of Brahman.

    As per the Bhakti schools in general Brahman is Saguna not nirguna as Advaitins describe, hence Brahman is the locus of all Auspicious qualities.

    All the Devas such as Indra, Varuna and so on are treated as parts of Brahman, there is also a Vedic basis for such a view.

    From the Bhedabheda point of view Prabhupada(founder of Iskcon) puts it beautifully he says that in order to get all your desires satisfied you need pray only to Lord Krishna, reason being that all devas are a part of Krishna itself. If we take a tree and want a branch to give us a fruit, we need to only water the roots of the tree. Similarly he says to get the favour from any Deva it is better to pray to Krishna, you will get the favours from all the Devas automatically.

    Another question of yours is that do the Devas know that there are Brahman. As per the Bhedabheda view knowing Brahman is to know the relationship between Brahman and yourself. Since although you are Brahman you are not the complete Brahman but a part of Brahman.

    The Devas as per this tradition are also Jivas who have come to this post, very few Devas or even human beings realise there relationship with Brahman, post realising themselves are parts of Brahman they are suppose to become devotees of Brahman.

    Your next question will be if every one is Brahman then why do we not realise our relationship with Brahman, the answer is that all Jivas are deluded by Saguna Brahman's power viz Maya. Maya is not illusion or delusion, it is the power of the Saguna Brahman. This is the reason why all Jivas do not become devotees of Brahman.

    I have explained this to you purely the view point of the Bhakti tradition. Since it is easier to understand conceptually as well.

    Now when you pray to the Saguna Brahman do the Devas know that you are praying to the Saguna Brahman, the answer is yes since as per hindu tradition the pancha bhutas(five elements that is earth, fire, wind, water and ether) observe your every act, since the mind is nothing but a subtle component of the pancha bhutas, the Devata's are present there, for eg the mind is empowered by the power of Chandra Deva or Moon Deva. Hence whatever one even thinks is known to the Devas.

    When you pray to Brahman(I am assuming Saguna Brahman) for rain where does it go ? It goes to the Saguna Brahman itself and by the order of the Saguna Brahman the Deva that is responsible for rain is commanded to bring rain.

    When worshipping Saguna Brahman you are worshipping the source of everything. Not necessarily everything.

  9. #9

    Re: Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    Done.

    These answers are very helpful. Thanks to all!
    But a little bit more would be pretty cool ...
    You really do have a thirst for knowledge.

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