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Thread: Shastra is Pramana

  1. #11

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Amrutji,

    Till now I was satisfied with your answer but I feel you have deviated a little, so let me give the answer if you don't mind,

    We ourselves cannot simply approach the Shastra directly, we require the Shastra to be unfolded to us by a Guru. Who is both realised and at the same time knows how to present the subject.

    The Shastra will only become a Pramana through the teaching methodology adopted by the Guru. This teaching methodology helps us in bringing clarity about ourselves, that we are the whole.

    How is this clarity brought in, it is done by the teaching methodology where Brahman's Svarupa Lakshana of Sat Chit and Ananda is explained, at this point we form an idea of Brahman as Sat Chit Ananda. This idea is called Brahma Kara Vritti. The unfolding of the Brahman is done in a 2 fold way one is Neti Neti, and the other is an investigation into the Svarupa Lakshana of Brahman. Once this is done the Brahman is unfolded to us in a crystal clear way as ourselves. At this point of time the Brahmakara Vritti disappears into the knowledge of Brahman.

    The Guru with the help of the Shastra and the traditional teaching methodology imbibes the Brahmakara vritti into the student. This helps the student in realising the Brahman as his self.

    For exemplars like Ramana Maharishi, Dattatreya and so on, the Brahmakara vritti is already present to them without any teaching and hence are ready to grasp the knowledge of "I am the whole".

    But this Brahmakara Vritti is not easily formed for ordinary mortals hence we definitely require 1stly the Guru who knows both the Brahman as well as the way to present it.

  2. #12
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    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Sriram,

    However how does the Shastra serve as a Pramana, that is the question.


    Is it not sufficient what I gave in my earlier post :

    "Why Shastras/Sabda are considered a valid Pramana because they are brought to us by seers who had direct perception of the reality. It is like this : I and you have not gone to moon but Neil Armastrong has gone there and seen what it looks like. So, we accept his Sabda i.e. his word."

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #13

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Devotee,

    I completely agree with what you say, you have taken the notion of Agama and Agama is what you say about Neil Armstrong going to the moon which we believe based on the words of Neil Armstrong since we ourselves have not gone to the moon, so this is also called Apta Vakya, however till this point I have provisional faith in the Shastra but merely having provisional faith in the Shastra is not going to reveal Brahman to me. The Shastra is talking about Brahman and giving me the idea, but I need to have enough clarity which makes me realise that "I am Brahman" so the intention of the question is that how is this clarity of "I am Brahman" gained through the Shastra.

    How does the Shastra provide me that clarity is what was the intention of the question. This itself shows that Advaitins treat even Pramana in a very different way when compared to other schools of thought. Satchitanandendra Saraswati makes the same point in his Vaak Jyoti series, this is where we get the notion of "Apoorvata" which literally means that it is revealing a very unique position by bringing in clarity.

    From my own understanding other schools of thought treat the Shastra as a Pramana since it is not of "human origin" or "Apaurusheya", hence devoid of all faults, where as Shankara treats it in a very unique way and says that if there are words in the Shastra that tell you ice is hot , you reject it since it is not within your experience. He also insists that Shastra while talking telling you something must tell you that which is not cognised through any other means. Due to the notion of "Apoorvata" Advaita is completely "Vastu Tantra" means looking at the object as it is.

    Now what actually is sad that people want to make objections on Advaita viz in fact about revealing a unique position that one realises as a fact.

    I invite the objections to Advaita and ask them to deconstruct it, however till now unfortunately I have seen a very superficial deconstruction of it.

    Since Advaita is seen as a mere philosophy, but not as a methodology which reveals a unique position about myself viz "I am the whole". People in general I observe are not willing to go through this methodology and then see it for themselves. Instead they just say you can keep your truth to yourself I don't require it.

    No matter how many times I tell people that this is only known post realisation they are not willing to leave there own position and are interested in merely intellectualising and are satisfied. Someone claimed that Advaita is based on certain assumption on which a rational system of thought is built.

    The problem is that people do not want to mind their own business, it seems as if there is a lot of hatred towards Advaita Siddhanta from what I observe.

    Apologise for digressing.

    Good Day.

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    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Sriram,

    I fully agree with you. In fact, in Advaita Saadhana there is more thrust on experiencing the Reality through Yama, Niyama, Meditation / Kriya etc. and theoretical knowledge which is called Aparoksha Anubhuti which comes through scriptures and teachings of Gurus is only the first step towards Realisation of Truth.

    Sabda and other Pramana help you in the beginning but imo, they cannot take you to the ultimate reality. It is only through practice like meditation etc. which stills the mind and underlying Vaasanaas / impressions.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #15

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Devotee,

    Not quite, this will mean that the Shabda Pramana is giving me theoretical knowledge and that for practical verification I will have to practice meditation to realise it. Not quite, otherwise there will be no need of the teaching methodology of the Guru, it will become redundant completely. In such a case merely hearing Tatvamasi will be more than enough and after that we must start meditating. All meditation will do is cleanse the mind. But to know the Brahman Shastra becomes a Pramana through the teaching methodology used by the Guru. This teaching methodology gives us enough clarity to understand that we are the whole.

    Coming to experience, I take very careful steps while considering the term Brahmic experience since if I had Brahmic experience for half an hour , I was whole for half an hour and that experience I am again limited. This will be the status.

    We need to realise that we are the whole. Coming to Anubhava or Brahmic experience, I reconcile it with the ideas present in the Tripura Rahasya, where Janaka suggests stopping the mind you get to know the Atman. Later in this book they discuss the difference between the Yoga Samadhi and the Jnana Samadhi using the example of a mirror. Thus confirming that Yoga Samadhi does not give you any knowledge of Brahman.

    Knowledge or understanding is not different from Anubhava. The easier path I see this through the teaching methodology of the Guru, where as stopping the mind is a very tough task, i.e the space between the thoughts, noticing it is very very ardous. But even if done for a second transforms the person.

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    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Quote Originally Posted by Sriram257 View Post

    From my own understanding other schools of thought treat the Shastra as a Pramana since it is not of "human origin" or "Apaurusheya", hence devoid of all faults, where as Shankara treats it in a very unique way and says that if there are words in the Shastra that tell you ice is hot , you reject it since it is not within your experience. He also insists that Shastra while talking telling you something must ths not cognised.
    Not true. That scripture cannot be inerpreted in a way that would contradict pratyaksha/anumana is the common position across trafitions.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    That scripture cannot be inerpreted in a way that would contradict pratyaksha/anumana is the common position across trafitions.
    Paradox ! This statement itself is against Anuman. That will make Jiva's bondage state as his real Swarupa?
    Hari On!

  8. #18

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Omkara,

    My only point is this, Shastra only comes into play when Pratyaksha and Anumana both fail, that is when we have Shastra. The Shastra's domain is not within Pratyaksha and Anumana but beyond it.

  9. #19

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Hinduism+Krishna,

    I like you quote from the Bhagavatha I think the Sanskrit text is "Ahameva Parabrahma Brahmaivaaham paramam matam". The Advaita Mahamantra.

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    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Quote Originally Posted by Sriram257 View Post
    Namaste Omkara,

    My only point is this, Shastra only comes into play when Pratyaksha and Anumana both fail, that is when we have Shastra. The Shastra's domain is not within Pratyaksha and Anumana but beyond it.
    Correct. My point was that this is the position of all sampradayas.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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