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Thread: Shastra is Pramana

  1. #21
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    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Quote Originally Posted by Sriram257 View Post
    Namaste Hinduism+Krishna,

    I like you quote from the Bhagavatha I think the Sanskrit text is "Ahameva Parabrahma Brahmaivaaham paramam matam". The Advaita Mahamantra.
    This is the Sanskrit Verse-

    अहं ब्रह्म परं धाम ब्रह्माहं परमं पदम् ।
    एवं समीक्ष्य चात्मानं आत्मन्याधाय निष्कले ॥ ११ ॥

    This is Atma-Bhakti that is none other than Vishnu Bhakti.

  2. #22

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Sri ramji

    Your messages were very illuminating.

    Somewhere in Sri Shankara Bhashyas I have read that the Pramanas are like the indriyas in a body - eyes͵ ears etc. Thus͵ Pratyaksha has validity independent of Anumana and Agama͵ also Agama (Sastra) has its own area of control where it exercises independence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sriram257 View Post
    Namaste Omkara,

    My only point is this, Shastra only comes into play when Pratyaksha and Anumana both fail, that is when we have Shastra. The Shastra's domain is not within Pratyaksha and Anumana but beyond it.

  3. #23

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Omkara,

    I agree that this is the position of all Sampradaya, but on the Apaurasheyatva of the Shastra there is a small disagreement. Why is the Shastra not of human origin, if a ritualist were asked, he would say that since it is given by the "Devas". If you ask an Iskcon member he will tell you, since it came from the mouth of Vishnu. Hence mostly "dogmatic" statements.

    But when Shankara was asked why the Shastra is not of human origin he replies "Jnapakam tu Shastram na tu karakam" this means he says the Shastra is there to reveal that which you have forgotten but not to create something.

    For if the Shastra was created by human authorship it would be "Purusha Buddhi karakam", in the sense it would be a product of human intellect, hence it would fail to reveal the truth, but since the Shastra reveals the truth viz "Vastu Tantra" it is not a mere product of human intellect. This is the reason we say that the Shastra is "Apaurusheya" or not of human origin.

  4. #24
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    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Sriram257 View Post
    ...........he says the Shastra is there to reveal that which you have forgotten but not to create something.
    The above statement has nothing to do with the origin and everything to do with their purpose. I see a disconnect that I am unable to resolve.

    As an aside, if we disagree with a Hindu sampradaye, must we belittle it by branding it "dogmatic"? Austerity of speech - BG 17.15 - requires us to do otherwise!

    Pranam.

  5. #25

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Dear SriRam ji,
    Namasthe!

    Shastras are pramana - when we say this, we do not mean they reveal the Self. Self is "Self Evident" ... Ever Revealed.
    Self cannot be revealed by any shastra.

    shastras knock off the wrong notions ... Ajnana... and the Self evident Self, shines forth.

    So Shastras do not reveal self... they knockoff Ajnana or ignorance [see Shankara commentary on Bhagavad Gita 2.18 -- if i remember correctly, where apaurusheya is mentioned].

    The guru / shastras present a vision ... a way of looking so that the "Self Evident" Atma may be not missed. We miss Self because of our preconceived ideas and notions about ourselves. This is what is step by step revealed to be untrue. That process of Revealing our own wrong identifications to be wrong is called "Teaching". The methodology applied may vary.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  6. #26

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Believer,

    I don't understand how calling certain statements dogmatic is belittling the Sampradaya.Ok in that case let me reconcile the statements with 2 things Literal meaning (Shabdaartha) and Implied meaning (Lakshyartha).So when we merely take Shabdaartha things like Devas giving the Vedas sounds silly but when we look at Devas as nothing but forces within Nature through which divinity is expressed then yes the Devas giving the Vedas makes a lot of sense. Hence on your request I reconcile this with the lakshyaartha but I am sorry I cannot accept merely the Shabdaartha.

  7. #27

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste,

    I do not disagree with you however you seem to be fixated on reveal. So let me use another word which would be "recognition" the Shastra provides me recognition of the Atman. I think this word should not be a problem.

  8. #28
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    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Sriram257 View Post
    I don't understand how calling certain statements dogmatic is belittling the Sampradaya.
    dogmatic - adjective - inclined to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true.

    Now every sampradaye has principles that are non-negotiable. That is what separates it from other schools of thought. Even you apply 'your logic' to everything and come up with a conclusion on every issue. So, why say that such and such sampradaye is dogmatic? They are no more dogmatic than your "firm" positions. I am also firm on certain issues and would not even allow anyone to try to convince me otherwise. So, I am also dogmatic. The only reason anyone would use this word on me would be to portray in a negative way. That is my line of thinking. Perhaps you have your reasons to use certain words which definitely are not flattering by any stretch of the imagination. BTW, this post is to clarify word usage and to learn if my understanding is flawed; and is not intended to hijack the thread.

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 10 June 2015 at 01:46 AM.

  9. #29

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Dear Sriram ji,
    Namasthe!

    We changed the world "Reveal" to "Recognize" ... how do I recognize and what ?

    Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi tells of the story of a person who looked into a well and seeing his reflection in the well thought that his head has fallen into the well.
    The teaching is to negate the wrong notion.
    Neither to help one recognize the Self nor reveal it.
    when the notion that my head has fallen into the well is negated, one need not be told that he head is "here" !


    Head here is ... "Self" ... the well is "Mind" !

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  10. #30

    Re: Shastra is Pramana

    Namaste Silence Speaks,

    When you change it to recognition it makes a lot of difference, since you are merely recognizing something which is already cognized by you. Classic examples given here is like a king who forgot his kingship and then later recognized his own kingship which was never lost in the 1st place.Similar case is told here so recognition does make the difference Shankara also acknowledges recognition he calls it Pratyabhijna. A classic example is "Soyam devadattaha" that devadatta is this devadatta.

    Also in the example of the head fallen in the well, the person had a prior state of cognition that his head has not Fallen into the well. When his ignorance of his head falling into the well is removed he recognizes his original state. He has regained the knowledge that he had lost viz that his head never fell into the well. Hence recognition.

    Of course I agree that the recognition is done by the seeker himself but the Shastra helps the person in this recognition.
    Last edited by Sriram257; 10 June 2015 at 06:44 AM.

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