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Thread: What is wrong with this forum

  1. #11

    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Avyaydya,

    This forum allows constructive criticism. You have only a very short stay here and you should agree that you need more time before you pass a judgement like this on this forum.

    What is the problem ? I have seen your posts and this is what I can say :

    a) You have formed some idea on what is right and what is wrong on the basis of your logical conclusions and based on experience with this world. Now, the same applies to members of this forum. They have their own ideas and in many instances, they need not match those of yours. Moreover, this is an area where you are new and the people who are long term members have more experience and knowledge of this specific field for which this forum has been made. It is like I go your country and as soon as I meet you I start giving you my piece of mind on what is right and what is wrong in your country. Will you really feel comfortable with me ? No. What is right and what is wrong ... is highly subjective. Anything which you may consider right may be absolutely wrong from my perspective. ... and we should be mature enough to accept this fact of life.

    b) Every organisation and group must adhere to some rules to be able to achieve its objective. What is the objective of this forum ? To understand Hindu Dharma better ... to discuss issues related with Hindu Dharma ... to help others in understanding things on the Hindu Dharma matters better. This cannot be achieved without following a strict code of conduct because religion/Dharma is not based on logic and science alone ... faith of the people / beliefs of the people also plays a major role. It is easy to discuss things on a Christian forum or a Muslim forum but it is not so easy to discuss things coolly in a Hindu Dharma forum. Why ? This must be understood well by all of us. This is because Hindu Dharma unlike other religions encompasses many different belief systems which may seem contradictory to each other. How ? I will tell you :

    My dear friend, the truth is not what you have imagined to be. It comes colored in different belief systems and biases. However, the unblemished, untainted Truth is the substratum of all such relative truths. Once we start accepting that the others' views may also be right from some other perspective, there won't be any need for most of our rules. But unfortunately, we are not yet there and so, the rules of this forum are required.

    OM
    Namate devotee,

    I only claim to give a opinion,
    it is simply feedback, what the administrator and others do with it is not up to me. Have no fear, I have zero power on this forum. It is meant well, but distrust seems to be one of the problems on this forum. People start to form opinions and make objections even before I have proposed anything.

    You are right that a forum needs to have rules and people applying rules, it is no different in democracy. I find it surprising that democracy is rejected out of hand. The problem of this forum is the lack of democracy and it is actually harming the forum. Patriarchal autocratic rule maybe right for a sect it is not the best choice for diverse community

    The challenge of diversity you describe is well solved on the forum by creating separate sub-forums for the different traditions and limit discussion within them. The same kind of system is also used on other forums. That I do not see as a problem of this forum.


    Is it the master that chooses his disciple or the disciple that chooses his master? Should we approach new members as their masters? I am not imposing any view. It is not me you should be looking at. I do not have the power or the wish to impose any view. It is this forum that does that. It is most blatantly clear when people start speaking in terms like, if you do not like it, then leave. That would make sense if this is a sect, but it is not a healthy attitude for a forum that claims to serve Hinduism at large. Hinduism that is diverse and renowned for its tolerance is not done justice by such high-hearted attitude.


    Last edited by Avyaydya; 26 May 2015 at 07:20 PM.

  2. #12

    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam all: I see it very much as all things come to pass. There were a few years there when HDF was at it's posting peak, lots of topics, lots of posters, lots of active discussions. But it you look at the sheer volume of posts here, we pretty much ran the gamut of ideas. For awhile there, myself and others tried to dream up new topics, just to keep the activity flow up. But even that became arduous.

    Still, all those discussions, all that knowledge, makes HDF one of the most vast resources of Hinduism going. Look at the daily readership.

    It has always been the most pro-Hindu of any forum I've ever been to, and I'm on or have been on several. Some others are sectarian, others allow insulting back and forth, and still others are full of sensitive people so much that if one expresses an idea of any sort, someone will surely get all angry about it, and start attacking or other such nonsense that's not conducive to spiritual discussion. A couple of forums are places of wholly sectarian ideas where you'll get banned 10 times quicker than here. Others are anti-Hindu, or stuck in British interpretation of Hinduism, and I spend all my time defending Hindusim on ideas such as the lingam is not a phallic symbol. So in summary, my view is that HDF has been the best Hindu forum over the years - by far. Thanks, Satay, for this service you have provided for us, fee of charge, as seva for the Hindu internet community.

    I realised just now I've been posting here nearly 8 years. Long time. But oldies like me have seen many many people come and go. We've made internet friends, lost intense friends, seen long winded posts that we couldn't grasp, and wise short posts of high quality.

    The one strong thought that occurs to me after all this experience is that the internet and what's said on it has a far greater importance given to it by the individuals that post than what it actually is. People believe that what they post here has power. In reality it has little. We posters suffer from a delusion that this stuff actually counts.

    When Modi or Obama speaks, millions listen. When Swamis who head large organisations, people listen, are affected, perhaps changed forever. Those people have power. Internet posters rarely change peoples lives, although that would be hard to judge.

    All things here on this plane are temporal. There is only one permanent reality, and I'm afraid this isn't it. We all tend to forget that.

    Icy, when you get your forum going, let me know.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Namaste Eastern Mind,

    I think these are very valuable thoughts. What we write here has limited value. Much more important is what it does for us and that it creates a good atmosphere. I have visited forums that were actually better in that respect. I have been here for two and a half years and I think it is declining. Too much good, even excellent people being banned for futile reasons, it is actually bleeding this forum dry.

    People here do not seem to be aware that deleting someone's posts and banning members are hurtful actions that should be done with great care. That members should not be treated as passers-by, but as members of a community. Family members of the wider Hindu community. Also contributors who invest time, creativity, energy and love in their posts. The administrator says, I do not have time for talk. That is like a doctor saying, I do not have time for a proper diagnose, I'll go straight to the operation.

    Hurting people will not remain without consequence, the karmic effects destroy a forum. I saw these kind of things happen before on other forums. When members get banned that does not only hurt that member, it also hurts other members that empathize with them. Then the more sensitive people will start to stay away. When people are not allowed to protest, they will vote with their feet. Even worse is when others suggest that if you do not like it, you can take a hike. What kind of atmosphere is that? How fake is love and respect on a forum if that is how people feel. It is cold, unfeeling and respectless. The same kind of thing I see in some sects and I totally abhor it.

    Respect is dead word if it is demanded but not given. Love is a dead word if it is preached but not practised. We can do this much better, much more democratic, much more loving. We can make this forum more loving and more interesting. But it depends on the people in power. If they rather want control and power than build and serve a community, then things will not change.

    The administrator says he can not do the moderation properly because he has neither time nor energy for it. So why does he not limit himself to the technical side of things and let the community run itself? In most western forums moderators are chosen and they work as a team. They take team decisions. No person is banned when there is no consensus of the whole team. On their own they only do small changes to posts. If posters have problematic behaviour they deliberate how to best handle it.

    They allow people to discus but have clear rules. They are not afraid of discussion like on this forum where the word jalpa (discussion) is used like it is something bad. How can it be bad? It is a girls name. The Gita begins with a discussion between Krishna and Arjuna. Arjuna bringing his arguments and Krishna his. Krishna uses arguments to convince Arjuna, not authority! And it is an uneven match. Arjuna the warrior is discussing with his charioteer, his servant. Or you can say Krishna is discussing with his devotee. But it is allowed from both sides to go against each others ideas.

    Yes discussion must be led. And that actually takes people with a satvic mindset, people with a great amount of respect and love, not people who swing with axes. To "moderate" does not mean to extinguish the fire, but to temper the fire. The fire must be kept alive. The fire of discussion is a joy, not an evil thing. It should not burn down the house, only kept under control. And that actually takes very mature people. There are enough people here who feel very mature and learned. They can prove their qualities in real life by becoming moderators. Yes it can take great patience, but a satvic person has that.

    In the best of forums moderators are very respectful in their actions (ahimsa). They understand that people can make mistakes in the heat of discussion, in the same way that sportsmen make mistakes in the heat of the game. After all discussion is very much a game in which people learn but also develop skills. A moderator should "moderate". He can only do that well if he is moderate person himself. A moderate person does not want to punish and dislikes extreme means.

    In the best of forums people are allowed to attack each others positions, but never the person. They can say: "what you say is nonsense". but "not you are a fool". That is where the border lies. If people overstep they are in a friendly way asked to rectify their own post. Which is less intrusive and much more effective than others deleting. If people do not react (they may be offline, moderators do it and leave a note). If the person has little control over himself at some point his posts may be removed. If he has become overly emotional a cooling ban is given. First a few days, then a week, then a month and at some point a permanent ban. But people can reapply after a some period if they excuse themselves. When people behave well for a while moderation also becomes less intrusive again. This kind of moderation actually shows real love and respect for members. If it is done with wisdom, there will be a lively but pleasant discussion. And yes it takes time and effort. It can not be done by the administrator. You need a team of people for that. People that also take time to instruct people.

    Because we only have one administrator who has limited time he quickly bans people, but actually is keeping this forum down this way. And as he is banning more and more people. and soon only the regulars are left, and then discussion becomes predictable and of little interest, because everybody knows each others viewpoints. For the administrator is not very rewarding to ban people either. When you hurt people you will feel the negative results. That is why people blow up the forum after a while, it no longer gives them satisfaction. Because all people whether masters or servants want appreciation and conflicts undermine the feeling of appreciation.

    Now discussion is repressed (It is jalpa, that is bad) and it only leads to frequent bans. By delegating moderation to members, the administrator will feel more reward and have more time for other things. At the same time it makes the forum more democratic, more of a social community and less of a one man's show. A team of moderators has more time to do moderation in a good and more effective way. And the members will feel more respected. That creates a better atmosphere. We may even be inviting people back that are banned, because now it is manageable.

    And maybe we can have some good exiting discussions again. Discussion is not bad. Like a good football game a good discussion has positive effects. People will be looking for the best arguments. Democracy thrives on discussion. It also has other benefits. Without discussion differences much easier escalate. The extremists we see doing terror acts never discuss their ideas. They are only self-pollinating themselves, getting more radical all the time. They never have their ideas discussed. The idea that discussion is wrong exists in autocratic relationships. People are not allowed to talk back, only to listen and obey. Do as you are told.

    When we use autocratic rule and ban people a lot for breaking rules, than people go away from a forum with deep negative feelings. That is no promotion of Hinduism, on the contrary. Hinduism like all religions will be challenged in the new era. Religions that in reaction start to repress people in submission will lose. People will simply turn away from religion and become irreligious. It will lose its attraction. You do not build attraction with repression. That may seem to work when people live in confined environments like isolated villages or sects, but communication and transport is rapidly changing that. Only living religions that can adapt will survive and thrive.

    Christian churches understand that. They see a massive exodus of believers, but also that people are seeking more earth-like spirituality. They are now creating Pagan churches to accommodate them. Hinduism has more to offer than any other religion. But the same autocratic power structures that preserved traditions can now become an obstacle to new generations thinking more free. They want to discuss things, question things.

    It is good to discuss things, to think about the future, not just the past. The whole war of the Mahabharata is about the future. It is a new generation bringing a new era revolting against a older generation that had become corrupt. A renewal. The old generation is always led by fear. Fear of change. Fear of change is self-defeating. To control the future one has to lead the change not fight it. The revolution that happened to the west will come to the East. It is coming over the whole world. My country was very conservative and patriarchal society sixty years ago, it was swept away by the tides of change. Nobody could have anticipated such a change, but it came like a tidal flood. There is no dike high enough to prevent that. One should anticipate that. Technology will make it happen. Look at China, they have their gaze firmly fixed at the future. Things may be hard, but they are creating themselves a better future. Look at Japan, a very traditional society, but they have always embraced change without fear. It is not threat to the Japanese soul.

    I think we can do better, but the choice is not mine, the choice yours.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 26 May 2015 at 07:28 PM.

  3. #13
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Namaste Avyaydya,

    I admire your good intentions. See, members on this forums are not selected by anyone on any fixed criteria and therefore, all members cannot have same traits and temperament or even value system.

    When I was new on this forum, I too faced difficulty while dealing with some members ! I still don't respond to posts of some members whose views or tone of posts I don't like. Even though it is a virtual meeting place, it has all the characteristics of any real-life meeting place or social gathering. The newcomer may have to slowly adjust to some strange behaviour of some members gathered there. Time is required to create this understanding. You and this forum needs time to understand each other.

    I, personally, like your posts and feel that the forum will be benefited by your presence.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #14
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Vannakkam: I believe that far more people just stop posting than get banned. I've only been around to see the banning of maybe 5 people who were constantly causing mischief. Of course some get banned almost immediatley, like the fellow who got past the 10 post rule and then spammed every thread he could with strong Hindu hate. I spent the better half of an afternoon deleting his posts, as that's one Moderator power I do have.

    But yes Avyayda, I like your posts too.

    Aum Namasivaya

  5. #15
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    I've been on forums (mainly Buddhist) for very many years and I've even moderated on a few. Unfortunately I've never seen the ideals in the OP actually manifest to anything like that extent. You get the whole range of people on forums and moderators are not infallible. I don't think there can be such a thing as a perfect forum but they have their uses, mainly for sharing information. Most people who frequent forums seem to be "full cups" ie. they are not there to take any more information, you can't help them and they don't want you to either.

    I my experience, meditation will always be your best resource and the further you progress, the less anyone out there can help you, which is tough if you are on your own.

    Namaste

  6. #16

    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Namaste Devoteeji,

    Could we have a separate forum for discussions and debates within the Hindu Dharma forums however, the rules are that all debates must be had only in that forum.
    We can put rules like when you are actually refuting an opponent's view you will need to give logic that is universally accepted by others but not simply something like "Oh that is my opinion".

    When ever any objection is raised against any school of thought it should be based on the some type of reason that is universally acceptable or the person has to quote scripture or his or her own Sampradaya. Anyone breaking such rules will be moved to the jalpa forum and so on.

    Is this possible, that way we can limit all objections to any school of thought to the debate forum. I believe in this way Avyadyaji should have no complaints.

    Do let me know if the idea appeals to you.

  7. #17
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Namaste Avyaydya,

    Thank you for the feedback. When I said in my last post that you may ask questions in the feebdack forum I meant regarding the forum rules or the post. I did not expect pages worth of feedback. Anyway since you have put in the time to give valuable feedback I can only return the favour and address it. Most of what you posted has already been addressed in previous threads and discussions in this subforum. I will try to address your points but if I miss anything please feel free to read other threads and responses on similar topics under the ‘feedback’ forum to get a better understanding on the topic.

    First let me summarize your posts and repeat back to you my understanding of your problem with the forum:

    1. You believe that the forum is run unethically, in an autocratic fashion as opposed to running it with ethics and in a democratic fashion.
    2. You suggest that people’s freedom of speech is being suppressed, discussion and critique is not allowed.
    3. You feel that certain members are ‘after’ you and out to ‘get’ you; you feel harassed and not trusted.
    4. You get the impression that the forum is admin’s ‘play-toy’ and his ‘thing’ to destroy as he wishes.
    5. You suggest that the forum is promoting Hindu Nationalist ideas.
    6. You feel that forum members and admin should not point out colonialism ideas; doing such makes you uncomfortable.
    7. You feel that the forum is an ego-project and should adhere to your higher values and standards
    8. If it were up to you, you would create a better forum for all from a community view point, not from the sole viewpoint of the owner
    9. You suggest that in India maybe things are done by suppressing other people’s ideas but you are not sure if that’s true as you are a westerner.


    I hope that I have understood all of your problems with the forum.

    Now, let me first address the cause of your problems first, as I see it. I believe that most of your problems with the forum are due to misunderstanding or not comprehending the forum rules. I don’t think that you have read the rules of the forum, if you have then you have not comprehended them. However, since you have not asked me a specific question about any of the forum rules I assumed that you have comprehended them yet your posts here on the feedback forum suggest otherwise.

    Therefore, I think most of your problems are comprehension related. The rest are due to not knowing the history of the forum and yet some are related to your own sensitivities to other members’ posts but since I am not a psychologist, we won’t get into psychoanalysis. Yet recall what I said in my previous post, your ‘head’ literally seems to be stuck in a place where sun don’t shine, part of your problems with the forum are due to that.

    1. You give us (the members, admin and mods) a lesson on Ethics and Democracy and blame the admin and mods that we are unethical and autocratic. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In general I don’t need a lesson on Ethics and Democracy as I am student of both western and eastern ethics and democratic systems. You must know that the idea is not foreign to Indians, India and Hindus in general as well. The world’s best known strategist, Chanakya, founded the ideas of ethics and democracy two thousand years before ‘The Prince’ was written by Machiavelli, considered to be the founder of modern western ethics.

    You wrongly understand the purpose of the forum and suggest that HDF is ‘defending a religion’ yet the purpose is clearly stated in the forum rules as
    Hindu Dharma Forums
    is an open forum for constructive discussion on all aspects of Indian culture and traditions and the positive presentation of Sanatana Dharma (the Eternal Religion, known as Hinduism or simply as Dharma, the spiritual Duty or universal Law).

    You say that any system that purposely tries to create a situation in which people are made powerless against rules is unethical, while I agree with you completely on that; you wouldn’t be saying that here if you had comprehended my previous post in which I explained that the forum rules were created by the forum members and not by me.

    The forum rules are not my creation. They are the creation of the senior forum members. Since you did not comprehend it last time I wrote this I now add the members’ names in the hopes that you may relate to their names and remember. The forum rules were created by the following members: sarabanga, BhaktaYogaSeeker, yajvan, Eastern Mind, GaneshPrasad and Arjuni.

    I am only the upholder of the rules. Think of me not as a ‘ruler’ but as a ‘janitor’. Think of HDF not as a ‘country’ but as a temple. Now think that the temple members have created some rules and I have ‘volunteered’ to help enforce the rules and keep the temple clean of garbage, pests, junk and all nonsense.

    Now, as a janitor, my dharma is to keep the forum clean. I follow the ethics of saam, daam, dand and bhed given to me by Chanakya, not because he was Indian and my forefather but because his ethics are a thousand times more practical than the ethics the west parrots about.

    What you see on HDF is application of Chanakya niti. He recommends that a person with responsibility must have advisors, those who are qualified to give instruction and those have proven themselves to be worthy of trust. Following this ethic, I have advisors. I rely on the counsel of Yajvan, Eastern Mind and Devotee when it comes to matters of moderation, administration and upholding the rules. I trust their expertise in their fields; trust their judgement and life experiences. In the early days of the forum when these individuals were not around, I relied on the judgement of Sarabanga and BhaktiYogaSeeker (Ex-mod of Hindunet). Both of these members are long gone and I had to acquire new advisors.

    You say that the forum is undemocratic; again not true. Even the structure of the forum, names of the forums, their description, names of sub forums, which sub forums to create and delete were all done by the members. The initial structure, sub forums etc. were all suggested by my then advisors sarabanga and BYS. If you are interested, I can post their email conversation here.

    HDF has been a democratic and ethical since its inception. The problem you have is because you are only parroting impractical western ethics and democraziness and are not familiar with the practical stuff. Please educate yourself on the eastern stuff.

    2. With one stroke of the brush you say that People’s freedom of speech, discussion and critique are suppressed. I am unable to understand how one can say that when it says clearly in the rules that
    This is a Sanatana Dharma Forum for the constructive discussion on all aspects of Indian culture and traditions.
    Core Intentions
    Discussions on Sanatana Dharma
    While other ideas are welcomed and considered, the core of our thinking is Sanatana Dharma and its rich, vast offerings.
    2. Positive Presentation of Sanatana Dharma
    This forum is for the positive presentation of Sanatana Dharma and we expect your participation to be positive and uplifting. While curiosity about our tradition is welcomed, questions must be asked in the spirit of learning and the knowledge that our tradition offers. If these ideas seem foreign to you or if this will be a struggle for you, then HDF may not be a good fit for you. Moderators will direct you out of this forum, to other communities on the Internet better suited for your needs.
    3. Quality Posts Quality Members
    HDF's aspiration is spiritual upliftment through sharing and discussion of knowledge. We seek quality posts that bring value to the reader. It is therefore not our intent to have mass audience, mass distribution, or large membership. This forum exists for simple people who wish to share the beauty and profundity of Sanatana Dharma. Here is an example of what we think a quality post should contain





    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2550. We expect you to adhere to these goals when posting on this forum.

    Which part of the above is not clear to you? If you point out specific wording, I am willing to take to my advisors and get it changed. Do you think that we should think of translating the rules in other languages so people can comprehend them better? Would you like to volunteer your time to translate them into Dutch?


    Discussion and Critique are welcomed on HDF, however, there are specific requirements on how to do that. Those requirements are listed under the rules. Please ask me about a specific requirement you have an issue with that you think is not allowing discussion and critique.

    3. You feel that other members are ‘after’ you or don’t trust you. Let me ask, what have you done to earn their trust? Why should they or why should anyone trust you or anyone else? As I said in my previous post, you reveal about yourself only through your posts. People only know you through your posts, what you write on the forum. We have no idea who you are, what you do, what your intentions are, which organization or religion for that matter you belong to. We will form an opinion about you based on your posts. If members do not trust you it is not the forums problem, it is your problem. Please post in such a manner that creates trust among others. I really think that if you actually comprehend the forum rules that you will build such trust. Yet some members are not in alignment and they either don’t post or get redirected out as clearly stated in the forum rules.

    4. You feel that the forum is a ‘play-thing’ of mine and mine to destroy as I please. Let me tell you something very clearly, HDF is not a ‘play-thing’ for me. I have spent countless hours supporting it but I do that with my own choice. No one asked me to do it and no one paid me to do it. I do it because I want to and the effort is rewarded by years of dedication and super quality posts from members like sarabanga, yajvan, eastern mind, atanu, devotee, ganesh Prasad, arjuni and many countless others. Such effort could not be destroyed even if someone wanted to and believe me a lot have tried yet HDF prevails due to the efforts of the members.

    5. You feel that the forum is promoting Hindu Nationalist ideas. Let me ask you what is ‘Hindu Nationalist’ ideas? I have no idea what that is. I don’t know what their ideology is nor do I care. I know the ideology of HDF. It is listed under the forum rules. That’s what I uphold. If that makes me Hindu Nationalist in your mind then that’s not my problem. That’s again your problem.

    And yet I must ask what’s wrong in discussing ‘all aspects of Indian culture and traditions, the very purpose of the forum? Does that make me and the other mods Hindu Nationalists?

    Did you know that in the past on HDF, I have been accused several times by different members of the following -


    • Being a hindu nationalist
    • Being supporter of westerners
    • Being supporter of ‘whites’
    • Being supporter of ‘advaita’ and ‘advaitins’
    • Being supporter of ‘shivism’ and ‘shaivas’
    • Being a (bad?) Vaishnava
    • Being a ‘foreigner’ or non-Indian (as I am a Canadian)
    • Being supporter of the West, in particular of US
    • Being support of ‘christianity!
    • ​Supporting westerner hindus like sarabanga, yajvan, eastern mind instead of loving my own kind, atanu, devotee, ganesh prasad, believer


    Isn’t it laughable, the range of things I am accused of durig the years? Do you see a common thread there? That’s democracy.

    Yet I have never taken any of the accusations to heart as I focus on my dharma, the duty of the janitor and am here after nine years. Now, if someone accuses me of anything as you are doing, I just laugh out loud at their stupidity.

    6. You feel that forum admin, mods and members should not point out colonialism ideas. Making such makes you uncomfortable. Why? Are you a colonialist? Why are you uncomfortable? You have given one aspect of colonialism, and pointed out that it wasn’t good for Europe either. So? If it wasn’t we or the Indians should be fine with it? Did you know that colonialist used the same methods that you are trying to use here to rule the colonies? First, they had the impression that they were better than the ‘uncivilized’ people, then the proceeded to tell the ‘uncivilized’ people how to behave, what the ethics of their country should be, how the government should be done, how trade should be done, then they divided them, then they claimed in the history books that they were only trying to ‘educate’ and make those people ‘better’.

    Sound familiar? If not, let me clearly draw a parallel so that there is no doubt left. You come here to HDF, ask to be a member, accept the forum rules, don’t comprehend them, then you repeatedly tell us that ‘you are living in light’ that ‘this is how things are done in my country’, you educate us on ethics, and democracy, you tell us how to run the forum so on and so forth. You say that you have ‘higher values’ (than the rest of Hindus) that you want to uphold those values to make the forum better.

    See the parallels in colonialism and your approach? Don’t blame the members who point it out. The problem is not with them it’s with you and your approach which is in close parallelism to colonialism tactics.

    7. You feel that the forum is an ego-centered project and that you would run it with higher values. Let me clearly state here that the forum is not an ego-centered project. It has never been. It is already running on higher values that are listed in the forum rules section. Those values were created and suggested by senior forum members in a democratic process. Don’t blame the admin for upholding the rules.

    8. You say that if it were up to you, you would create a better forum for all from a community view point, not from the sole viewpoint of the owner. My question, "what or who is stopping you from creating such a community?" If you need help with technical setup, server space, database setup etc. I can offer my help. Please create such a community on the Internet. More communities as the ones you are dreaming up are needed on the Internet as most forums are simply chat lines for people to chat on whatever they want and denigrate other religions, especially, Hinduism. Please create a forum with the ideas that you have in mind. You may even post a link to it here on HDF under the Dharma Related Websites subforum. Let me know when it’s done I would love to visit and in fact promote it.

    9. Using the undertone of ‘you are better because you are in light’, ‘that’s how things are done in your country, and questioning the integrity of Indians by suggesting that maybe things are done by suppressing other people’s ideas there only shows your ignorance of which you have already admitted. This is colonial mindset, "I am better, I am in light, I allow freedom of speech" etc. etc. might be tolerated by the politicians of India but such thinking is not tolerated by the new generation. Anyone that says such things should be ready to get slapped every time they say it and don’t be surprised about it.

    Elsewhere you also point out that the forum is ‘running dry’. So? As of this morning, there are over 115,700 posts. Have you read them all? Why not stop worrying about the forum running dry and increase your knowledge by starting to read what the members of the forum have to say. Did I mention – Read the forum rules?

    HDF has never looked for lots of members, expansion etc. Early on it was decided by the members that quality of posts is way more important to them than quantity. Also, since you don't actually run a forum you might not know that the large number of membership that you see on other forums is actually not of real members. There are bots on the internet whose sole purpose is to register randomly on Internet forums. I noticed that in the early days of HDF when the membership numbers were increasing exponentially everyday. There is no value in have large number of members especially bots. We rather have five members making quality posts on Hinduism than 5000 chit chatting about everything under the sun. Don't you agree?

    Please also read other threads under the Feedback section starting from the ‘Last’ or the earliest in time. The problem I see with members like you is that you don’t comprehend the rules and quickly forget your purpose on the forum. Your purpose as a member is to make quality posts on HDF. I am looking forward to reading your quality posts on HDF. Please make quality posts on HDF. Leave the moderation of the forum to the mods: myself, Eastern Mind, Yajvan and Devotee.
    If you have any questions about the rules of the forum after you have read them, please pm me or any of the mods, Eastern Mind, Yajvan and Devotee.


    I hope that I have addressed all of your concerns and that this is the last post on the thread. I am eagerly looking forward to your utopian forum on the Internet and quality posts on HDF.
    Last edited by satay; 28 May 2015 at 04:46 PM. Reason: formatting
    satay

  8. #18
    Join Date
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Sometimes, folks with sensitivities can become stressed over online venues such as this. Know that it isn't a problem with this forum, it runs as perfectly as any place with such a large group of people from various worldly locations and personalities...

    At some point, such folks have to just step back, breathe and go spend some time outside, praying or going to a Temple. If you know you have a tender heart or are sensitive to others words, then you owe to others, and yourself to do so.

    I have been a member for a very long time now, and I am a proud member always. Things said here may not always be in alignment with my heart, that's going to happen with such a diverse group of people. But, that is what makes this forum great, we can learn a lot about others, and ourselves...who we are, and who we definitely are not.

    If this thread is going to be about feedback, I will give also mine.

    It's perfectly goodly. Thank you so much for keeping this going for such a long time. As a ripple out into the universe...you have no idea the wonderful waves you are making on the other end. Keep up the awesome work. <3

  9. #19
    Join Date
    February 2012
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Avyaydya

    Your entire "what's wrong " with this Hinduism forum sounds like a political speech and not a discussion of Hindu topics. There are other forums which have both religious directories and political directories both in a single website, perhaps you would find them a better fit for you, you could enter the political debates directory and have at it, in fact I may join you there and get into how wrong you are on multiple fronts politically. But what you are demanding from this forum is a political stance where unless we all agree with your "defending the rights of people of less power to people of more power" sounds to me like the typical leftist demagogue where everything is "wrong" (such as you claim about this forum) unless everything is about your fixation on power struggles. I really do not see anything much about Hinduism in your screed and a lot about running for MP for the Labour Party. Power is more about internal power than what you think is power.


    I have been on other forums in Hindu sections where the "one note Charlie" comes along, "Hi, I am Hindu, but first let me tell you about the glory of Socialism and Communism." And the one note Charlie is always the biggest over sensative character who imagines all sorts of conspiracies that do not exist and the next thing you know they go crying to their "chill zone" of self-imposed persecution.


    Let me just cut to the chase. I like to get into politics, too, so if you want to get into it then join me in a political debates forum. Yes, there are politics in Hinduism. But not your politics, IMHO, Hinduism is bigger than your Voltaire and "ethics".


    Have a nice day. Oh, and Hare Krishna. And Om Namah Sivaya.


    Or should I say "Live Live Chairman Mao"?

  10. #20

    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Avyaydya

    Your entire "what's wrong " with this Hinduism forum sounds like a political speech and not a discussion of Hindu topics. There are other forums which have both religious directories and political directories both in a single website, perhaps you would find them a better fit for you, you could enter the political debates directory and have at it, in fact I may join you there and get into how wrong you are on multiple fronts politically. But what you are demanding from this forum is a political stance where unless we all agree with your "defending the rights of people of less power to people of more power" sounds to me like the typical leftist demagogue where everything is "wrong" (such as you claim about this forum) unless everything is about your fixation on power struggles. I really do not see anything much about Hinduism in your screed and a lot about running for MP for the Labour Party. Power is more about internal power than what you think is power.


    I have been on other forums in Hindu sections where the "one note Charlie" comes along, "Hi, I am Hindu, but first let me tell you about the glory of Socialism and Communism." And the one note Charlie is always the biggest over sensative character who imagines all sorts of conspiracies that do not exist and the next thing you know they go crying to their "chill zone" of self-imposed persecution.

    Let me just cut to the chase. I like to get into politics, too, so if you want to get into it then join me in a political debates forum. Yes, there are politics in Hinduism. But not your politics, IMHO, Hinduism is bigger than your Voltaire and "ethics".

    Have a nice day. Oh, and Hare Krishna. And Om Namah Sivaya.

    Or should I say "Live Live Chairman Mao"?
    Namaste ShivaFan,

    Thanks for your feedback. I think you mistake my plea (not demand) for improving democracy and humane values with leftist ideas. I think it is rather an attack on right wing ideas to suggest that democracy and humane values are not compatible with them. I do not agree with that. Further I consider communism as an autocratic rule, not a democratic rule.

    If there is anyone comparable with an all powerful leader, it is at present time our administrator. He has even more power than a communist party leader, as he not even has a party that can overthrow his leadership.

    I do not understand the fear. The owner of this site will always remain the owner of this site, and as administrator he will always have the power to delete posts, close threads, ban members, and shut down the site. No one is asking him to hand over his legal or property rights. What I suggest, not demand, is that moderation is done by the representatives of the members.

    This is not communism but how forums are generally run. And for good reason. It makes the job of the administrator a lot easier, it creates a more of a community spirit, with more hands you get a more tolerant better moderation, it creates more transparency, it allows for more free discussion. It is more in line with ethics, which seems to me very important for a religious site.

    Moderation can be done better, and it will actually alleviate the administrator and make his job more rewarding. With better moderation less people need to be kicked out, which creates a more thriving community. He himself writes:

    There are many posts on HDF. Several new ones are made each day. While I want to read all of them I simply cannot. I would love to spend all my waking hours on HDF reading posts and serving members yet that's not possible as I have a life outside of HDF and people to take care of. So which posts do I review as an admin? I review the posts that a member has reported, for instance, in your case, several of your posts have been reported in the past by other members.
    ...
    As I am the owner, I reserve the right to remove any posts or any member whose thinking is not in alignment with this principle. Many have left, many I kicked out. No hard feelings. People come and go and we are only a blip in the vastness of the universe.
    ...
    Regarding posts being deleted silently, in the early days of HDF, I used to do back and forth discussion with the member while reviewing their posts or before deleting them. I found that it wasted a lot of my time, unnecessarily. I say, unnecessarily as I don’t recall an incident where I was able to change their mind or attitude. After wasting a lot of time I ended up doing what I thought was best for HDF (keeping the no denigration rule in mind) anyway. I have learnt to not waste time discussing with anyone about their posts.

    To me that suggests that
    moderation can be done better if more hands helped. It is not communism, it is simply how most serious forums are managed. It does not in any way infringe on the rights of the administrator. And of course it will only happen if the administrator allows it.

    That is why I tried to find out whether the administrator has another agenda for running this forum. For if he has, then of course he will not want to give up total and direct control. He denied that in every way possible, and it is only after that, that I came with my suggestions.

    Personally I think that democracy, freedom of speech, tolerance, humaneness, all values protected by true democratic states and very much by the American constitution, are worth upholding and are not served well by autocratic systems, like for instance your communist party. It is these autocratic systems in which the individual has no rights and is at the mercy of the moods and interests of one person. I assumed that people devoted to the high ethics of Hinduism would welcome that.

    I did not foresee that Hindus would see a call for implementing more democracy as a threat and react so emotional against it. Now, even though Satay has denied this, it does make it seem that other interests play a role on this forum. How else am I to explain the total rejection I see here. But please understand that I created this feedback on the basis of Satay's assurance that this is not the case.

    I hope this helps you understand my motives better.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 01 June 2015 at 08:12 AM.

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