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Thread: What is wrong with this forum

  1. #21
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Namaste,

    Whereas the current moderators, Satay, Eastern Mind, Yajvan and Devotee are doing a fine job and the general membership seems to be appreciative of and pleased with their service to the HDF community, there is a hint of discord. Is it to elevate the level of discourse that needs to be raised or personal preferences that may drive some to question everything about the forum? I believe that the amount of time spent on this thread is fruitless and if the same effort were diverted instead to making meaningful posts, it would bring more harmony to the forum and move us in a positive direction. Demanding/requesting that everything be a mirror image of one's personality is a bit of a strain on others. Perhaps the four moderators may see if there are any valid complaints to be addressed, any accommodations to be made or any refinements to be implemented. If none, then they can keep marching and the general membership has their full support.

    As is often said, be the friend that you would want to have and people will start liking/respecting/loving you. Show them to be otherwise and there will be no end to negativity. I do hope that we can end this discussion and move on with our lives/endeavors/aspirations. Perhaps other forums, finer than the lowly HDF can serve some needs better.

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 01 June 2015 at 09:07 AM.

  2. #22

    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    Whereas the current moderators, Satay, Eastern Mind, Yajvan and Devotee are doing a fine job and the general membership seems to be appreciative of and pleased with their service to the HDF community, there is a hint of discord. Is it to elevate the level of discourse that needs to be raised or personal preferences that may drive some to question everything about the forum? I believe that the amount of time spent on this thread is fruitless and if the same effort were diverted instead to making meaningful posts, it would bring more harmony to the forum and move us in a positive direction. Demanding/requesting that everything be a mirror image of one's personality is a bit of a strain on others. Perhaps the four moderators may see if there are any valid complaints to be addressed, any accommodations to be made or any refinements to be implemented. If none, then they can keep marching and the general membership has their full support.

    As is often said, be the friend that you would want to have and people will start liking/respecting/loving you. Show them to be otherwise and there will be no end to negativity. I do hope that we can end this discussion and move on with our lives/endeavors/aspirations. Perhaps other forums, finer than the lowly HDF can serve some needs better.

    Pranam.
    Namaste Believer,

    Discussion about the system itself is never wasted, but essential in my view. A system that does not allow that, easily gets corrupted. We are not wasting valuable resources here, people are freely giving their contribution. In my impression, you seem to be against discussion, your idea of a forum rather seems to be holding monologues in which you preach to others.

    A good discussion is not only valuable, it is a joy to watch, like a good game of chess. Do not be a party pooper. Are you afraid your side will lose the argument?

    If Satay wants to leave the Kurukshetra he can do that at any time. I will allow him that and not use it against him. As the saying goes: Sometimes it is better to go away and live to fight another day. And of course as the administrator he can always intervene on his own behalf. And look at the amount of support he gets from people like you. His helpers are all here to support him.

    You worries are like a lack of confidence in your friend capacities.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 01 June 2015 at 09:53 AM.

  3. #23

    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Namaste Satay.

    Thank you very much for your extensive response. I find it no less than my duty to provide it with a reaction after haven taken considerable time to weigh your arguments. As in all good discussions you give arguments, and I will give you some counter arguments. I will do it in parts as your post is so large.

    In response to arguments under point 1
    On the argument of holding superior ethics:
    You believe that the forum is run unethically, in an autocratic fashion as opposed to running it with ethics and in a democratic fashion.
    ...
    In general I don’t need a lesson on Ethics and Democracy as I am student of both western and eastern ethics and democratic systems. You must know that the idea is not foreign to Indians, India and Hindus in general as well. The world’s best known strategist, Chanakya, founded the ideas of ethics and democracy two thousand years before ‘The Prince’ was written by Machiavelli, considered to be the founder of modern western ethics.
    Let us agree that being a student of ethics does not make one a master of ethics in real life. Nor do I question your good intentions or your extensive knowledge.

    But I hope you are not offended if I remark that Machiavelli is in the West regarded as a very unethical person not a source of ethics, but of unethical pure ruthless power politics. Chanayaka teachings also comprises advise that may well be regarded as unethical. Besides saam, daam, dand and bhed he also advises things like chhal (cheating). It makes me wonder why you choose to found the ethics of a religious forum on power principles? What kind of religion are we talking about here?

    On the Argument of not having made the rules:
    You say that any system that purposely tries to create a situation in which people are made powerless against rules is unethical, while I agree with you completely on that; you wouldn’t be saying that here if you had comprehended my previous post in which I explained that the forum rules were created by the forum members and not by me.

    The forum rules are not my creation. They are the creation of the senior forum members. Since you did not comprehend it last time I wrote this I now add the members’ names in the hopes that you may relate to their names and remember. The forum rules were created by the following members: sarabanga, BhaktaYogaSeeker, yajvan, Eastern Mind, GaneshPrasad and Arjuni.
    I hope we can agree, It does not really matter who made the rules, but what their actual content is. Autocratic rules are autocratic rules. Often autocratic rulers follow in the footsteps of other autocratic rulers. It would be ridiculous if they would claim not to be autocratic rulers because they did not create the rules. Any system that purposely tries to create a situation in which people are made powerless against rules is unethical. If members did that, than those members may be used to autocratic rule. A lot of sects are ruled this way. But as wrote before, membership of a Hindu forum should not be like entering a sect.

    The argument that it is more ethical because of having counselors:
    What you see on HDF is application of Chanakya niti. He recommends that a person with responsibility must have advisors, those who are qualified to give instruction and those have proven themselves to be worthy of trust. Following this ethic, I have advisors. I rely on the counsel of Yajvan, Eastern Mind and Devotee when it comes to matters of moderation, administration and upholding the rules. I trust their expertise in their fields; trust their judgement and life experiences. In the early days of the forum when these individuals were not around, I relied on the judgement of Sarabanga and BhaktiYogaSeeker (Ex-mod of Hindunet). Both of these members are long gone and I had to acquire new advisors.
    That you have counselors does not change that. All autocratic rulers rely on loyal helpers. No king can do without court dignitaries. Does Dhritarashtra not have the noble Vidur to advise him? And what good does that in the Mahabharata? That having counselors has little to do with ethics is best shown with the Mafia. Mafia bosses have counselors too, they call them consigliere. I have yet to meet someone who claims the Mafia uses an ethical system because the Capo di Capi uses counselors.

    On the contrary, keeping decision-making out of the view of people concerned makes it nontransparent and further lowers democracy.

    On the Argument of just being a janitor:
    I am only the upholder of the rules. Think of me not as a ‘ruler’ but as a ‘janitor’. Think of HDF not as a ‘country’ but as a temple. Now think that the temple members have created some rules and I have ‘volunteered’ to help enforce the rules and keep the temple clean of garbage, pests, junk and all nonsense.

    Now, as a janitor, my dharma is to keep the forum clean. I follow the ethics of saam, daam, dand and bhed given to me by Chanakya, not because he was Indian and my forefather but because his ethics are a thousand times more practical than the ethics the west parrots about.
    A Janitor? A janitor with counselors and absolute power, that is a whole new concept. All autocratic rulers however describe themselves as servants of the people. They base their legitimacy on that, it is also their self-justification, and it is the only thing that people will accept. Because especially an autocratic ruler needs to massage the ego of his servants to strengthen his position. Even the megalomaniac mangod washes the feet of his disciples to prove his humble servanthood, while the rest of the time he is ordering them around. Yes all autocratic rulers serve too. If you autocratically rule a Forum, you also serve the community, but it does not make you a mere janitor, and the suggestion creates a false picture of your real position.

    If you were a mere janitor, people would take offense of the tone you use here and the actions you take to destroy their posts and close threads and ban people. They would say: What is this janitor allowing himself? So let us at least agree that you are not a janitor, except maybe in your own imagination. If you however want to express that you feel the work you do is hard and unrewarding then that would only be a good reason to let the community take care of it. Then you can be our highly appreciated technical administrator and the great benefactor of the forum. A position in which you will receive only praise.

    The task of a moderator is not one of a janitor cleaning up. indeed I get the idea you seem to see yourself more as a terminator. The superior force that ends all discussion by irreversibly deleting posts, closing threads, and banning members at the slightest opposition to your rule.
    Now for a moment ask yourself, how do people like mafia bosses react to disrespect? Zero tolerance! They too are real terminators. It is not the people wandering in low consciousness that hold high the high ideals of humanity and democracy. They are not people of moderation. I think your study of Machiavelli and Chanakya provide you with the wrong idea of true ethics.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 01 June 2015 at 09:56 AM.

  4. #24
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    namaste

    For clarity, the current mods are: Yajvan, Eastern Mind and Devotee

    In the past there have been other members who were part of the moderation team but they are inactive at the moment.

    I have tried to write in simple english so that the sentences above are easily comprehensible.

    If anyone has questions about the forum rules, please let me know.

    Thanks
    satay

  5. #25
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,
    Perhaps other forums, finer than the lowly HDF can serve some needs better.

    Pranam.
    Vannakkam: Indeed, many of the religious and interfaith forums have large sections on Hinduism, and are moderated by group consensus. Must be a hassle to be a moderator, not to mention quite the commitment, having to discuss all things of moderation, trivial and otherwise. Still, the idea of 'forum' period is overplayed as only a tiny percentage of people on this planet participate in them. The real religion is out there in the world.

    Aum Namasivaya

  6. #26
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Namaste Avyayada,

    The forum rules are created by the forum members. In my view it is a democractic process to involve members who are like minded in the creation of the rules and in moderation.

    I think your problem is the 'like-mindedness' (?) You are not in alignment with the theme of the forum and that's fine. Not everyone has to be. The forum is not meant for everyone only like minded people that are in alignment with the theme of the forum. As a result, a large number of memerbship requests get turned down.

    Calling me mafia boss doesn't help as I don't know anything about how to run a mafia. I only know how to keep the forum clean of pests and people who are not like-minded.

    Please read the forum rules and let me know if you have any specific question about a rule that's bothering you. Complaining just for the sake of it will accomplish nothing and will only lower your conciousness.

    Start making good quality posts as members are supposed to and you will gain the respect of other members that you crave so much.

    Thanks,
    Last edited by satay; 01 June 2015 at 10:13 AM.
    satay

  7. #27

    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste

    For clarity, the current mods are: Yajvan, Eastern Mind and Devotee

    In the past there have been other members who were part of the moderation team but they are inactive at the moment.

    I have tried to write in simple english so that the sentences above are easily comprehensible.

    If anyone has questions about the forum rules, please let me know.

    Thanks
    Namaste Satay,

    Suddenly moderators are invented, that you did not mention in your earlier posts. Moderators, Satay are well recognizable on forums. In no way has it been made clear that these people are moderators. You yourself gave the impression that you do all moderation yourself in your earlier post.

    In a discussion one has to stand by ones words Satay. Otherwise one loses ones honour. Your self-respect is at stake here, if nothing else.

  8. #28

    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: Indeed, many of the religious and interfaith forums have large sections on Hinduism, and are moderated by group consensus. Must be a hassle to be a moderator, not to mention quite the commitment, having to discuss all things of moderation, trivial and otherwise. Still, the idea of 'forum' period is overplayed as only a tiny percentage of people on this planet participate in them. The real religion is out there in the world.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Eastern Mind,

    Let no one make a mistake about it.
    You really are a team!

  9. #29
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Vannakkam: I'm a member of 6 other forums, actually, and post semi-regularly on all of them. I've been moderator on one of them, but couldn't keep up to moderator expectations so resigned the position. As with here, I was invited to do moderation.

    Aum Namasivaya

  10. #30
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    Re: What is wrong with this forum

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Avyaydya View Post
    You really are a team!
    This forum is all about Satay. Oh no! wait a minute, there really is a team - A team of like-minded people!

    Pranam.

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