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  1. #31

    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Namaste Ram Ji,


    What is the exact reason,why are western Vaishnavas not allowed inside?Did Sri AC Bhaktivedanta Swami speak with them when he was alive?
    Yes he wrote a letter but was denied. Its not just western Vaishnavas, or non Indians who not allowed in, even Gandhi was denied access, when I was first there I was told a story of one of the pujaris who went to America and when he came back he was not allowed in as he had become infected with the deadly virus of living in the same place as Mellechas and there was a big uproar, not sure how it ended.

    But it is what it is.....

    I joined ISKCON in Soho Street London they have installed Deities of Jaganatha Baladeva and Subrada, so I built my relationship there. For the Bhakta when in Puri it will only increase the longing and devotion in the mood of separation, so there is no loss. Srila Prabhupada was very keen that Jaganatha was installed in many temples and the tradition of Rathayatra was held around the major cities, an act of defiance perhaps or just to show that God is equally accessible to everyone.

    Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja had problems with the Brahmins at Puri and his disciple had to dress as he did so he could escape because they were out to kill or beat him because he opposed their caste based regime.

    It can be a fine line of protecting something sacred and allowing people of all creeds to visit the temple, some have good reasons while others may not, some temples allow Photos others do not, some maybe tourist who have a cultural fascination and dont fully understand the profound nature of the Deity but may have good intention. The main thing is who ever approaches even if there are rules is to leave a good impression, even if that means denying the person entry. A local Hindu may go to the temple with a shopping list, or want the Diety to help him with a curse to harm his neighbor, who knows what goes on in peoples mind but a westerner may have true fascination and wonder and awe of an ancient tradition, some may go and ask only to serve him, who can tell anything from the outside.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 18 July 2015 at 12:45 PM.

  2. #32
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    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Namaste Ram ji,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    I'm trying to see these issues from your perspective.I understand your disappointment and sadness.
    I appreciate that. It's true, our perceptions and experience are subjective, partly due to culture/country, but also partly due to age. You are still very idealistic, and if you'll forgive me for saying a little innocent. I hope you keep that. Do you honestly believe there is no racism within India aside from the issue of temple entry? I love India as much as my own nation of origin, I am not trying to bash or criticize, it's not like it's not a big problem everywhere else in the world too. Look with open eyes and take away all the filters of cultural and nationalistic programming.

    I don't agree that only Vira Shaivism would suit, there are still many wise people and it seems each tradition has a range of all types. But thank you for your thoughts. At the time of Sri Adishankara, did those philosophers consider themselves so great? Truly great people rarely think such of themselves. In each era we make our own great minds and great philosophers by progressing society and social customs based on the work of prior great minds, not by staying stagnant in the past. Those philosophers expounded and improved upon their predecessors in such a way that it made a great mark and step forward for Sanatana Dharma and India. That can happen again at any time, we just will not realize it until it's over and our children's children recognize revere such people as great souls. We all have a part to play in that.Stagnancy and sloth are not good qualities, they're problems in Kaliyuga.

    Not sure about the part that only a certain portion of India is meant for Prachaara
    I am not sure what you mean, if you are asking for a quote or not, so just in case: Pay particular attention to verses 21 through 24.
    Manu Smriti Ch2:
    17. That land, created by the gods, which lies between the two divine rivers Sarasvati and Drishadvati, the (sages) call Brahmavarta.

    18. The custom handed down in regular succession (since time immemorial) among the (four chief) castes (varna) and the mixed (races) of that country, is called the conduct of virtuous men.

    19. The plain of the Kurus, the (country of the) Matsyas, Pankalas, and Surasenakas, these (form), indeed, the country of the Brahmarshis (Brahmanical sages, which ranks) immediately after Brahmavarta.

    20. From a Brahmana, born in that country, let all men on earth learn their several usages.

    21. That (country) which (lies) between the Himavat and the Vindhya (mountains) to the east of Prayaga and to the west of Vinasana (the place where the river Sarasvati disappears) is called Madhyadesa
    (the central region).

    22. But (the tract) between those two mountains (just mentioned), which (extends) as far as the eastern and the western oceans, the wise call Aryavarta (the country of the Aryans).

    23. That land where the black antelope naturally roams, one must know to be fit for the performance of sacrifices; (the tract) different from that (is) the country of the Mlekkhas (barbarians).

    24. Let twice-born men seek to dwell in those (above-mentioned countries); but a Sudra, distressed for subsistence, may reside anywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    To the original post and one thing that concerns me about Hinduism in general is about its future identity. I agree with Shiva fan and many of
    the posts that I read about Hindu way of life through external influence has been put under threat. No easy solution, but some of the chanting I am Hindu makes me think at some point Hinduism will be seen like the other religions, seems some type of fanaticism is creeping in, especially online, not on this forum though thank God. In England its different, Hindus have a good reputation and there is a lot of religious freedom, nobody here would need to hide their faith, in fact more and more people are taking interest, but what worries me is that interest maybe short lived because whats happening with Hinduism at the moment.

    I dont want to sound critical as its a complex situation, while its essential to for natural born Hindus to absorb and defend their own culture, some of the tactics concern me, and it feels like that they are creating a hostile space, even moderate Hindus are condemned and criticized, all books written in English on Hinduism are to be considered Adharmic, where will all this lead, it doesnt feel good, I hope a good solution will evolve.
    Thank you for bringing it back on topic, and +1, well said.

    ~Pranam
    Last edited by Aanandinii; 18 July 2015 at 03:03 PM. Reason: formatting
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  3. #33
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    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Vannakkam: Regarding any kind of invalid or stereotyping discrimination, my belief is that the perpetrator has yet to fully cognise karma. Karma means it WILL come back. Therefore we are the students of life ... learning what not to do, stepping in when we are able, and trying are utmost not to not fall into that pit.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Namaste Ram Ji,



    Yes he wrote a letter but was denied. Its not just western Vaishnavas, or non Indians who not allowed in, even Gandhi was denied access, when I was first there I was told a story of one of the pujaris who went to America and when he came back he was not allowed in as he had become infected with the deadly virus of living in the same place as Mellechas and there was a big uproar, not sure how it ended.

    But it is what it is.....
    Namaste Ji,

    Even Gandhi was not allowed!!

    I joined ISKCON in Soho Street London they have installed Deities of Jaganatha Baladeva and Subrada, so I built my relationship there. For the Bhakta when in Puri it will only increase the longing and devotion in the mood of separation, so there is no loss.
    Nice to know this.

    (Sorry for this deviation from OP
    I haven't read about Bhakti in the mood of separation,I came across a somewhat similar form of Bhakti in verses of Saiva Saint Sri Akka MahaDevi.

    "The buffalo has its own concern
    The goat yet another.
    Followers of Dharma have their own concern,
    Karmi has another.
    I have my own concern
    you have your concern for last
    Chi, fool leave my saree, get away
    I am concerned only whether my lord
    Chenna-Mallikarjuna* loves me or not."

    *the beautiful Lord Siva, pure as Jasmine

    She uttered the above verse when an evil king tried to molest her.

    “Like treasure hidden in the ground,
    like flavour in the fruit,
    like gold in the rock and oil in the seed,
    the Absolute is hidden in the heart.”

    “Shoot the arrow so forcefully that while penetrating the target, even the feathers go in.
    Hug the body of the Lord so tightly that the bones crumble…”

    “Like the peacock that dances on a hill,
    like the swan that splashes around a lake,
    like the cuckoo that sings when the mango tree bursts into bloom,
    like the bee that enjoys only the fragrant flower,
    I will enjoy only my Lord Chennamallikarjuna.”

    This seems like Madhurya Rasa/Nayaka-Nayaki love but it is said that MahaDevi Akka's Bhakti was actually quite different in nature and the object of her devotion was formless Lord Shiva.This may or may not be in the mood of separation.

    Could you write a short post about Bhakti in the mood of separation,how it is experienced.)

    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

  5. #35
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    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    Namaste Ram ji, I appreciate that. It's true, our perceptions and experience are subjective, partly due to culture/country, but also partly due to age. You are still very idealistic, and if you'll forgive me for saying a little innocent. I hope you keep that. Do you honestly believe there is no racism within India aside from the issue of temple entry? I love India as much as my own nation of origin, I am not trying to bash or criticize, it's not like it's not a big problem everywhere else in the world too. Look with open eyes and take away all the filters of cultural and nationalistic programming.
    Namaste Ji, Yes,there is discrimination in India,most visible is the rich/poor division,political oppression,gender inequality etc.
    I don't agree that only Vira Shaivism would suit, there are still many wise people and it seems each tradition has a range of all types. But thank you for your thoughts. At the time of Sri Adishankara, did those philosophers consider themselves so great? Truly great people rarely think such of themselves. In each era we make our own great minds and great philosophers by progressing society and social customs based on the work of prior great minds, not by staying stagnant in the past. Those philosophers expounded and improved upon their predecessors in such a way that it made a great mark and step forward for Sanatana Dharma and India. That can happen again at any time, we just will not realize it until it's over and our children's children recognize revere such people as great souls. We all have a part to play in that.Stagnancy and sloth are not good qualities, they're problems in Kaliyuga.
    I'll still say that only Vira Shaivism will agree with your ideals.No other tradition will reject or abandon the rules of the past.Only the Vira Shaivas did so. People follow what their Guru says and the Guru follows his Guru and so on,this is how traditions were formed.There may be few liberal persons now and then in other systems but most traditions are rigid and will remain so,if not in open,they will practice their rules behind doors.In my observation,the liberal streak exists as long as the person is there and once he is gone the tradition will return to its old self. Markandeya Ji gave an example.
    I am not sure what you mean, if you are asking for a quote or not, so just in case: Pay particular attention to verses 21 through 24.
    I was saying that many famous scholars lived in the south of the Vindhyas,they wouldn't have resided there if it was considered unsuitable.I think India covers more area than the place as defined by Manu Smriti.Thank you for the references.I will try to find views of other scholars on this issue. P.S. The black antelope is found all over India according to Wiki and it also the state animal of southern states of Andhra and Telangana.
    In the 19th century, blackbucks ranged in open plains from the base of the Himalayas to the area of Cape Comorin, and from the Punjab to Lower Assam. They were abundant in the North-Western Provinces, Rajputana, parts of the Deccan, and on the plains near the coast of Orissa and Lower Bengal. Herds occasionally comprised several thousand animals of both sexes and all ages.[2] Today, the blackbuck population is confined to areas in Maharashtra, Odisha, Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, and Karnataka, with a few small pockets in central India. It is also known as Krishna mruga in Kannada and as Krishna jinka in Telugu, it has been declared as the state animal of Andhra Pradesh and Telangana.
    Last edited by Ram11; 14 September 2015 at 06:41 AM.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

  6. #36

    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Namaste Ram Ji,

    Sorry to go off track and deviate from the original OP, but to reply to Ram Ji

    Could you write a short post about Bhakti in the mood of separation,how it is experienced.)
    There were only 8 verses that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu wrote, here are the last 3 verses of
    Shikshashtakam


    (6)

    nayanam galad-ashru-dharaya

    vadanam gadgada-ruddhaya gira

    pulakair nichitam vapuh kada

    tava nama-grahane bhavishyati


    O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?


    (7)

    yugayitam nimeshena
    chakshusha pravrishayitam
    shunyayitam jagat sarvam
    govinda-virahena me


    O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence.


    (8)


    ashlishya va pada-ratam pinashtu mam
    adarshanan marma-hatam karotu va
    yatha tatha va vidadhatu lampato
    mat-prana-nathas tu sa eva naparaha


    I know no one but Krishna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally.



    Puri is in fact where Sri Chaitanya showed the more mature spiritual emotions of Bhakti and devotion, sometimes he was calm and peaceful, other times he collapsed in trance and was considered dead by some. He was seen running into the ocean thinking it was Ganga Ma and fishermen caught him while absorbed in deep trance like states of Prema Bhava, other times he hit his head on the wall till blood came when he felt intense separation and finally he merged into the Tota Gopinatha Deity.

    As with all shastra and higher teachings there is many things we can take from this, when the Jiva is feeling separation he yearns to be united, if we acquire a small taste of that union then we become mad after it, we become devoted in one way or another, we give everything although that union may not always be present. One has to develop a strong desire to reach the absolute level of full realization, nothing comes cheap. There are many levels of understanding in the Puri lila of Sri Chaitanya, when he was in union and separation both were considered the highest forms of ecstasy and the highest expressions of prem bhakti.

    Some say Bhakti is sentimental and that is one of the pitfalls of Bhakti, so Bhakti needs to be supported by Jnana, but once Jnana has served its purpose to rid one of avidya and come to the stage/state of brahma-bhutah prasannatm then the relationship with Sri Krsna Begins in rasa Bhava or pure emotions, there is nothing sentimental or mundane about it, as Jnana has already purified the mundane attachment to the body and anything that is considered to be maya or avidya.

    Some consider that it is Bhakti that gets one to the brahma state, some says that Bhakti only really starts once one has realized Brahma, never mind, just continue...... the destination is secured for those how are sincere in both paths. Jnana Marg and Bhakti marg are one and the same.

    Sorry for going off track, lets all try with good purpose in whatever ways we can to bring both Indian and non Indians into this wonderful culture and liberating path.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 19 July 2015 at 02:47 AM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Namaste Ram ji,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    Yes,there is discrimination in India,most visible is the rich/poor division,political oppression,gender inequality etc.
    Not what I asked. The topic was racism and racial profiling, not other forms of prejudice.


    I'll still say that only Vira Shaivism will agree with your ideals.No other tradition will reject or abandon the rules of the past.Only the Vira Shaivas did so.
    I'm willing to bet there are some Vira Shaivas out there who would take issue with your assessment. Regardless, let me be a bit more direct. This is your opinion and while I respect it is your opinion, I do not recall ever asking for your opinion about what Sampradaya would be best for me. You are not the judge of that, and again I disagree with your assessment.

    People follow what their Guru says and the Guru follows his Guru and so on,this is how traditions were formed.There may be few liberal persons now and then in other systems but most traditions are rigid and will remain so,if not in open,they will practice their rules behind doors.In my observation,the liberal streak exists as long as the person is there and once he is gone the tradition will return to its old self.
    Markandeya Ji gave an example.One of my friend's father is a temple priest and he would not allow my friend's classmates into their house,the visiting friends were told to sit in the veranda to talk but were not allowed inside.
    People will do what they do, most especially if they think it is in their best interest. If it is in their own home or on their land, then good for them, whatever. What is funny is how you go from "Most people are good" to the above, and waffle between agreeing there is prejudice and then defending it as okay in some cases. But all of this is beside the point, you have missed it entirely.

    What a Satguru taught/teaches and what people interpret/hear and follow are subjective and sometimes different things. Bigotry is not something that is native to Sruti, it sometimes exists in Smriti and when it does there is usually some reason that was a good one at the time - such as repeated attacks and invasions. Bigotry/prejudice is not native to the core of Sanatana Dharma, it is one of the key things that makes it so superior (yup, said it). It is a corruption brought in by the Abrahamics and other invading forces. The Vira Shaivas are not the only ones who recognize that - I have direct experience that allows me to say this with confidence.

    Maybe I can paint a better picture of what concerns me, as you seem convinced I am talking about personal conflict with various traditions.
    Read this
    When you can see that then you know that the pain one being causes another is like cutting off your own limb.
    Now with these eyes, look around the world at what people are doing to each other, to other animals and to the world/environment.
    In the light of this greater truth, the rest is ash. This is what I'm talking about, not Sampradaya or Human Traditions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: Regarding any kind of invalid or stereotyping discrimination, my belief is that the perpetrator has yet to fully cognise karma. Karma means it WILL come back. Therefore we are the students of life ... learning what not to do, stepping in when we are able, and trying are utmost not to not fall into that pit.
    +1, thank you EM ji, this is it exactly.

    Ram ji, there have most definitely been great scholars, lineages and Gurus in the South and in other areas. The point is that at the time of Manu, this is where he drew the borders. Things changed, as they always do.
    P.S. The black antelope is found all over India according to Wiki and it also the state animal of southern states of Andhra and Telangana.
    Most of the native deer and antelope range all of the subcontinent - though most aren't found in East India and much of Nepal, or in Pakistan, which was once part of India. You are picking out one line from the whole passage, not regarding it as a whole.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  8. #38
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    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    .....You are picking out one line from the whole passage.....
    Because it is so easy to deal with one line at a time.

    Sorry could not help it.

    Pranam.

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    Re: Hindu or none ... the new choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    Namaste Ram ji,
    Not what I asked. The topic was racism and racial profiling, not other forms of prejudice.



    Namaste Ji,

    In the USA, there are people of different races and some races are discriminated against but in India there is only one race,so racial profiling may not exist in Indian context.Other kinds of discrimination is there.(It seems that there are some kind of racial discrimination protests going on in the US now,in is not covered deeply in local media here.Honestly,I know very little about this burning issue there.)


    I'm willing to bet there are some Vira Shaivas out there who would take issue with your assessment. Regardless, let me be a bit more direct. This is your opinion and while I respect it is your opinion, I do not recall ever asking for your opinion about what Sampradaya would be best for me. You are not the judge of that, and again I disagree with your assessment.
    Yes,you can disagree with my opinion.I am not telling you to follow VS.You have said you don't like prejudice in any form.Most traditional systems here will not meet your expectation,this is what I am trying to say.Modern organizations are different from orthodox ones.
    People will do what they do, most especially if they think it is in their best interest. If it is in their own home or on their land, then good for them, whatever. What is funny is how you go from "Most people are good" to the above, and waffle between agreeing there is prejudice and then defending it as okay in some cases. But all of this is beside the point, you have missed it entirely.


    I am not defending prejudice,I am saying it exists.Hmm,I missed something
    What a Satguru taught/teaches and what people interpret/hear and follow are subjective and sometimes different things. Bigotry is not something that is native to Sruti, it sometimes exists in Smriti and when it does there is usually some reason that was a good one at the time - such as repeated attacks and invasions. Bigotry/prejudice is not native to the core of Sanatana Dharma, it is one of the key things that makes it so superior (yup, said it). It is a corruption brought in by the Abrahamics and other invading forces. The Vira Shaivas are not the only ones who recognize that - I have direct experience that allows me to say this with confidence.
    (I will just say that Sruti is a mixture of philosophy and ritual.)
    Maybe I can paint a better picture of what concerns me, as you seem convinced I am talking about personal conflict with various traditions.
    Read this


    Thank you,I read it.
    When you can see that then you know that the pain one being causes another is like cutting off your own limb.
    Now with these eyes, look around the world at what people are doing to each other, to other animals and to the world/environment.
    In the light of this greater truth, the rest is ash. This is what I'm talking about, not Sampradaya or Human Traditions.
    +1, thank you EM ji, this is it exactly.

    Ram ji, there have most definitely been great scholars, lineages and Gurus in the South and in other areas. The point is that at the time of Manu, this is where he drew the borders. Things changed, as they always do.
    Most of the native deer and antelope range all of the subcontinent - though most aren't found in East India and much of Nepal, or in Pakistan, which was once part of India. You are picking out one line from the whole passage, not regarding it as a whole.
    Okay.


    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,


    Because it is so easy to deal with one line at a time.

    Sorry could not help it.

    Pranam.


    Namaste Believer Ji,

    Whatever.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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