Sanatana Dharma questions

[knowThyEnemy]

Thanks for posting the excerpts explaining how to achieve Mukti. I am more comfortable with the teaching of BG- that living (and dying) by dharma is the best way for a human to live (and die). The teachings regarding Moksh should be studied and practiced only if we still have time after having performed the dharmic duties.

Pranam

[follower12]

Namaste riju ji & knowthyenemy ji & devotee ji,


I have read many websites and original literatures too on meditation where the meditation process has not been properly elaborated as whatever content they have written is right ,but it is very limited and does not covers all aspects.


For example: Lord Rama never did any pranayama or such yog hat is prevalent today but still got Liberation.
As it is said, "Dissolution of consciousness into emptiness can lead to liberation or nirvana". Actually & factually, it leads to inertness. Person is stuck in that state. The experience is highly soothing in that state as practitioner does not experience any happiness or suffering. That particular form of meditation (which finally leads to awakening of Kundalini) is for coolness which yogis enjoy & also evolve. I think that this is not the purpose what meditation is meant for. It is for self realization or Atma-sakshatkaar. Few yogis achieve it, those who do not get deluded by the coolness of yoga, which is very rare in Kalyug. Most run after siddhi or occult powers.


I think there are direction given above that Buddhism can be discussed in another sub part of HDF.

knowthyenemy ji wrote:
I have come across two primary definitions of Moksh. The popular one is that when a person gets out of the cycle of birth-death-rebirth, s/he has attained Moksh. The other is that when the veil of ignorance is removed and the person realizes that s/he is none else but Sat-Chit-Anand Brahman, s/he has attained Moksh. I prefer the latter one, and it appears that you do too. ("When ego is destroyed or get purified, it attains liberation.") Hence we shall use this definition of Moksh in our discussions.

I think this is the essence of Moksha concept that you are very nicely put together here. Moksha occurs in stages. As degree of awareness rises, Moksha is experienced accordingly. Soul remains in state of moksha and paramanada always whether there has been realization or not. The jiva cannot experience it. The jiva (relative conscious +antahkaran+ bahyakaran) is not aware of it.


For the first time, when self realization is attained, then it is said " Ignorance about Self" has been destroyed. Ego can be present as well as absent after it. This is the first state & person experiences state of Moksh while carrying out his worldly duties.
After a number of stages, the final destruction of all karma occurs, ego gets annihilated completely and soul frees itself from birth-death cycle forever.

Let's take a hypthetical situation where a person achieves Moksh at the age of 50, but he stays alive till 85. What should that person do for the 35 years after liberation?

The moksha attained at age of 50 is Atma drashan or self realization & that which happens after 35 years is final or Atyanik Moksh. But it is not necessary that one who has attained realization will definitely get Atyantik moksh in that birth. He might go through another series of birth burning heaps of karma accumulated. The maximum limit of birth after self realization is 15. For 'real' Saints, it is limited to 3, like Shri Sai Baba or Jesus Christ who are currently in Heaven (Swarg).

He already achieved the goal that everyone told him is "the highest goal"! Should he visit temples on a weekly basis and worship there? What for? He already got the highest reward that God can give someone! Should he read religious scriptures? What for? He already got the highest knowledge! Should he start a business and make money?

That whole part is relative or Vyavaharik. It unfolds itself & then ends too itself. After Atmadarshan, the being attains state of Purush & the real Purusharth starts. Without becoming Purush, there cannot be Purusharth.


Lord Krishna had to go through worldly affairs though he attained supreme state of soul & also the position of Vasudev. Still, he has one birth left before final Moksh. No one can avoid karma and its results.

Bhagavad Gita strongly emphasize the importance of dharma and Nishkam Karma. Moksh is a reward that is only
for God to give to people. God controls Moksh, whereas we control dharma.

Here, I would like to recall a shlok of Shri Gita, part of which is " Swabhav vastu Pravartate" in response to who runs the world, who is doer. Lord Krishna clarified that there is no one in the entire Universe who controls or does anything. It all happens on its own "Swabhaav" through laws of Natue.


God also do not 'controls' Moksha. He has the power to grace Moksh to being. When being attains the purified state & becomes fit for it, the grace automatically flows. To become fit is our liability, its not God's responsibility. Religion, reading scriptures are all mediums to attain perfection & stick to His side. Infact, it can mislead us if we think that when God will wish, he will give us Moksha. Such attribute is only present when ego is there while God has none. (This is not to be confused with faith or Shradha towards him. )


It's like a student working hard to get good scores. Does that depend on his answers or teacher checking his answer-sheet ? (Oh, we have exceptions these days where teacher show partiality but consider here good teachers only). Students need to have faith in teacher and follow the way he guides.


God is devoid of opinions. Only we worldly people are full of it. If HE would have opinions, then he might have given Moksh to his favorable like those who prayed him all alone while rejecting opposers but that is not so. He loves & graces all equally.


Moksha is final target which is devoid of all causes, thus cannot be called an Effect or fruit. (Relatively, we may say that it is fruit of Purusharth ). The major part is journey which you have pointed out. It is rightly said that, to be over conscious about goal is not very helpful if process or journey is taken seriously.

That is exactly the attitude that we need to have.

Right. Personally, I have lost that attitude in realtime. I so much long for it as I had it till 16 years of age. But then I went through so much, I just gave up on all worldy aspects & strived only for ways to get out of the pains & sufferings.


I would like to understand more about Nishkama karrma though I will see more about it in Shrimad Bhagwad Gita. Hope so, I am not boring here & not over shadowing anyone. I just cannot stop myself from introspecting and reflecting these days. A very good group of people here. Awesome posts. This forum is really wonderful, a good platform to discuss dharm & adhyatm. I don't know where was I before I found HDF.


Pranam to everyone.

[riju]

Namaste Follower 12,

1)Lotus sutra by Burton Watson......

IN the introduction of this book, it is mentioned.
that an american university took up a project of translating 2000 year old manuscript in chinese language.
A committee of a number of persons (10-12) was appointed to translate this manuscript into English.
These members were specialists in Buddhism, chinese and english languages.
They took a few years to translate this book. They assure that they have taken extreme care in
translating each and every word.

2) I have used trap and fools for Arhats . They are my words and not of Guatam Buddha"s words.
Guatam at one place has used following words.
These Arhats are like chaff of rice and good that they have left this gathering.
Guatam has used words meaning REJECTION for arhats at THREE different places in these pages.
3) If you read these pages and then send back your comments, I will be thankful to you.

4) As per Lotus sutra ... Existence came out of Emptiness to flower through the process of CREATION AND WISDOM.
and to go back into emptiness (moksh) is of no sense without doing this work.

AND IT MAKES SENSE.

[devotee]

Namaste,

Most of the posts in this thread claim something without giving authority for making the claim. I would advise that we should either provide authority or say that whatever is offered is our opinion. This leads the discussion in right direction otherwise the whole exercise it just a clash of different opinions and that has no value.

OM

[riju]

Nameste devotee,

Brhaman who is only one (advait) came down or sent down many from this one.

Our body contains billion trillion of cosmic and physical atoms. All of them came from one Brahmana.
If we follow any one atom in our body , it gets somewhere connected to Brahmana, vedas, lotus sutra , in fact whole universe.

ONLY AND ONLY method is to get inside your body , meditate with AWARENESS, follow the connections and get the WISDOM
LOGIC or past memories,scriptures etc. AND THEY WILL BE ALL AUTHENTIC.

How ever hard you read it form books etc, it will be imperfect secondary knowledge.
Luckily for us there are thousands of well preserved original Guatam Buddha sutras available as a coroberator. USE THEM.
But Vedas have been transmitted to past saints in meditation and written down by them for our sake. I doubt if care has been
taken for their originality. In fact I am not so sure of some of vedas details that I read. Many many are absolute truth as well.
So veda details should be used carefully.

There are many many gods, saints in between Brahmana and humans.
Expansion of vedas by these gods may be partly correct.
I have evolved a method of hours and hours of meditation and then connecting the information retrieved from the body
to LOGIC. Each and every logic connects to WISDOM and each WISDOM gives benefits like peace, comforts, power etc.

I AM ALSO LEARNING.....learning from you , from sutras, from body, from internet as well and simultaneouly taking
advantage of these WISDOMS.
ARHAT (moksh) is a waste. This information has come to me form many many sources.
Hindus giving reference to vedas give highest position to Arhats.
I sincerely leave it you all to prove this veda ideal of Moksh or arhat to me.

Brhamana wanted to CREATE. And this creation starts from ONE.
All laws in formation of creation are CAUSE AND EFFECT (or law of karma...both have same meaning logically)
This law of karma is logical because from one to many and then the reverse from many to one.

All this is happening in SPACE and with fixed TIME.
PARALAYA and MAHAPARALYA are created between Brahmana and Gods and Humans with a PURPOSE.
And this PURPOSE dissolves ARHATS as they cannot cross these TIME SPACE bridge.
Only Buddhas have crossed this bridge.
Read Lotus sutra and you can get confirmation from it.
LOtus sutra extends VEDAS.
LOTUS SUTRA IS VERY MUCH PART OF VEDAS AND IT DEALS IN DETAILS OF THIS EXISTENCE.

[riju]

This universe is purposeless.......... It does not stand to the LOGIC.
The pain and sufferings are self induced etc..... We are born as ignorant child and mistakes will happen. Why should we suffer for these mistakes.
This universe is Maya /Mithya or ...etc........How can we agree when every moments it effects us.

[riju]

If we consider Brahmana having this whole universe as His body.
And we look inside our body, one will be pleasantly surprised that ones body is exactly like Brahamana body
only in minuscule scale. Our pain is Brahamana pain. Our creativity is Brahamana creativity.

Formation of our cosmic atoms in our body is just like milkiways, galaxis and stars in the body. Our body
universe is made of our emotions and desires and memories in one plane.
When we lift up from this one plane to another higher plane , we find different universe of our logic and so on of wisdom.
Our body is a miracle and this can be discovered by AWARENESS MEDITATION.

This process makes us see vedas or lotus sutra directly.The study of whole universe will take may be millions of years.
But any one statement like" what is Moksh "can be directly seen and it becomes the universal TRUTH, never to be shaken away.

[knowThyEnemy]

Namaste everyone,


I fall into the camp who believes that Brahman is fully conscious. I understand the idea of 'emptiness' but do not agree with it (sorry, riju). Brahman is conscious.... that is exactly why He wished and put this Leela of a world into action!


follower12 ji and devotee ji,


Before I thoroughly respond, I present another hypthetical case and some questions to ponder upon- Let's say you attain self realization and later on also attain Atyantik Moksh, which means that your ego is completely vanished and you are now one with Brahman. But guess what? Samsara (other people and their egos) would still be in existence and Brahman would still be doing leela in this samsara. Now since you and Brahman are one and the same, you (Brahman) are the one would still be present in this samsara and be doing your leela. So how exactly would you have freed yourself from the birth-death cycle?


Now some readers might say that Brahman has both a Nirguna component to Him and a Saguna component, and that the freed soul would become part of the Nirguna. But believing such a thing would be conjecture. Since there is only one soul named Brahman and He is the one who is manifest everywhere, you (Brahman) would very well be manifest in this Samsara.


In fact, you might already have attained Atyantik Moksh and might be present in this world as a manifestation of none else but Brahman doing the Leela . Do you have any reason to believe that this is not the case?


If it is the case, what should your goal in life be? Should it be 'Moksh' again, after you have already attained it?

[devotee]

Namaste Riju,

I would like to bring to your notice the following things :

a) I have a copy of Lotus Sutras and whatever I have read in Buddhism, I have not read that Buddha condemned Arhat or Arhants. Buddha himself has called an Arhant. An Arhant is one who has shattered all the ten ""fetters"". In the first chapter of Lotus Sutras itself, Buddha is among twelve thousand Monks who were all Arahats.
I have quoted from Lotus Sutra's first chapter first paragraph :

Thus have I heard. Once the Buddha was staying in the city of Rājagṛha, on the mountain called Gṛdhrakūṭa, together with a great assembly of twelve thousand monks, all of whom were arhats whose corruption was at an end, who were free from the confusion of desire, who had achieved their own goals, shattered the bonds of existence, and attained complete mental discipline. Their names were Ājñāta kauṇḍinya, Mahākāśyapa, Uruvilvakāśyapa, Gayā kāśyapa, Nadī kāśyapa, Śāri putra, Mahā maudgalyāyana, Mahā kātyā - yana, Aniruddha, Kapphiṇa, Gavāṃ pati, Revata, Pilinda vatsa, Bakkula, Mahā kauṣṭhila, Nanda, Sundarananda, Pūr ṇa maitrā yaṇī putra, Subhūti, Ānanda, and Rāhula. All of them were great arhats, known to the assembly.

I could not find any point where Buddha have condemned Arhats. In fact, learning from Theravada and Mahayan Buddhists I have come to know that in Theravada Buddhism, Buddha is one who got enlightened himself without the help of any Buddha. An Arhat is also enlightened one but he got enlightenment with the help of a Buddha. In Mahayan Buddhism too an Arhat is not condemned as far as I could gather. I found that in Mahayan Buddhism, an Arhat is also an enlightened being but he doesn't actively try to impart teachings to other beings for helping them gain Buddhahood/enlightenment. This means that though he got enlightenment, he doesn't help others in getting enlightenment.

So, I wanted you to give proof / authority for what you said in this thread.

b) 2nd thing that you said was that Lotus Sutras extend Vedas without telling us how you reached at this judgment. Have you read whole of the Vedas ? Have you read whole of Lotus Sutras ? Though Lotus Sutras are kept in very high esteem by Mahayan Buddhists but I didn't find very high teaching in Lotus Sutras. In my opinion, Diamond sutras / Prajna Paramita containing much higher teachings than Lotus Sutras. So, it would have been better if you had explained how you came to such conclusions.

c) This is an Advaita forum and by discussing Buddhism here in one form or the other and trying to show superiority of Lotus Sutras over Vedas is not acceptable as per forum rules.

d) Your idea of Moksha is not clear even though I have given excerpt from Upanishad explaining various types of Moksha. Moksha means "liberation" ... Enlightenment leads to liberation and even Bhakti does. So, how you condemn Moksha over liberation is a mystery to me.

Will you please offer us an explanation on this ? If not, I am going to close this thread as this discussion doesn't help the purpose of this forum.

OM

[devotee]

Namaste KTE,

I fall into the camp who believes that Brahman is fully conscious. I understand the idea of 'emptiness' but do not agree with it (sorry, riju). Brahman is conscious.... that is exactly why He wished and put this Leela of a world into action!

If you ask me, I would like to say exactly what the Aitreya Upanishad says : "PrajnAnam Brahman". If we don't add anything into it, it means, "Consciousness is Brahman"" and not that Brahman is Conscious. If that would be the case, Consciousness and Brahman would be two different things ... Brahman an entity possessing the other one that is Consciousness and that would violate Advaita.

Let's say you attain self realization and later on also attain Atyantik Moksh

This statement is impossible. Self-realisation and Liberation of highest level happen simultaneously.

which means that your ego is completely vanished and you are now one with Brahman. But guess what? Samsara (other people and their egos) would still be in existence and Brahman would still be doing leela in this samsara.

See, Nirguna Brahman has nothing to do with the world. This world and Ishvara are projected by the power of Brahman with their substratum as Nirguna Brahman. So, if it is Leela as you want to say, it is Leela of Ishvara and not Nirguna Brahman. Ishvara is the third state of Brahman also called PrAjna which is mass of Consciousness and full of bliss. He is Lord of the worlds and origin and end of the worlds. So, when you attain Self-realisation, it is like one bubble on the bosom of the Ocean has realised that it is non-different from Ocean and thus is saved from turmoil which the other bubbles face due to their ignorance.

Now since you and Brahman are one and the same, you (Brahman) are the one would still be present in this samsara and be doing your leela. So how exactly would you have freed yourself from the birth-death cycle?

This is why I had to explain that there is a difference between Ishvara and Nirguna Brahman. You can be one with Ishvara and also with Nirguna Brahman. The first type is called Sayujya Mukti and second one is called Kaivalya. If you are one with Ishvara, yes, you will feel the same thing as any avatara felt while on the earth.

Now some readers might say that Brahman has both a Nirguna component to Him and a Saguna component, and that the freed soul would become part of the Nirguna. But believing such a thing would be conjecture. Since there is only one soul named Brahman and He is the one who is manifest everywhere, you (Brahman) would very well be manifest in this Samsara.

The above understanding is faulty as per scriptures. Nirguna and Saguna Brahman are as per scriptures. MAndukya Upanishad tells us about Turiya (the Nirguna Brahman) and also PrAjna (Ishvara, Saguna Brahman). Nirguna Brahman alone is Ishvara when perceived through veil of MAyA and at the same time He alone is the worlds. The difference arises due to arising of Cosmic mind due to MAyA. When MAyA ends, there is no Sansara, there is no bondage and there is no liberation there is no multiplicity of souls.

In fact, you might already have attained Atyantik Moksh and might be present in this world as a manifestation of none else but Brahman doing the Leela . Do you have any reason to believe that this is not the case?

If it is the case, what should your goal in life be? Should it be 'Moksh' again, after you have already attained it?

In that case, Jeeva has already got liberated on enlightenment. His stay in this world is only for helping others and not for himself.

OM