BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

[devotee]

Namaste Markandeya,

Jnana is there to purify the jiva of all traces of material existence, to understand the nature of matter and conciosuness itself.

This is not what JnAna Yogis believe and it is not what Shruti / VedAnta says. This is a misunderstanding. JnAna which is valid for the above statement is not the JnAna that Jnana Yogis strive for. This is a state where the difference between Knowledge, the knower and the object of knowledge vanish. It is that "knowledge" which is the goal in itself. This is knowledge of Brahman and one who knows Brahman becomes Brahman. The duality between Brahman and Jeeva vanishes. It is like a drop of water mixes with a pool of water.

Jnana and Bhakti are dancing hand in hand, but there is a point where Jnana is not needed but Bhakti or Prem continues.

For JnAna Yogis, Bhakti is the first step towards JnAna. As there is no duality on Self-realisation who will be Bhakta and who will be Ishvara ? There is just bliss ... Infinite Bliss !

OM

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste,

Just keeping it simple, what is the end of material existence, its the realization of atma tattva, I am not going into Siddhanta here, in pure consciousness- chaitanya there is no more trace of material conditions that bind the jiva. This though is a lengthy discussion of consciousness. I am not denying the state of Brahman as something separate from the process of Jnana or the result of jnana and perhaps even the attainment, or the qualities and difference between pure consciousness and that of the covered Jiva. Its Jnana that brings you to this stage to know self is pure consciousness itself. Ramana Maharshi describes Bhakti as that which constantly surrenders to that self, he is talking from the liberated platform.

Some Bhakti yogis say that Bhakti is supreme, the other's the Jnanis says its Jnana, I dont see it that way.

[hinduism♥krishna]

Markandeya 108 dasa ,

Hello, would you give me some thoughts on a verse of Vishnu Purana?

"तन्नताः स्म जगत्स्त्रष्टुः स्त्रष्टारं अविशेषणं " [Vishnu Purana 1.9.61]

"Addressing to Vishnu,Vrihaspati and the divine Rishis thus prayed: "We bow down to the being entitled to adoration; who is the first object of sacrifice; who was before the first of things; the creator of the creator of the world; without any quality/distinction"

Regards!

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste HLK Ji,

There is certainly a lot in that verse, I hope its not a wrong or right verdict, .
1.We bow down to the being entitled to adoration- this is one of the natural symptoms of Bhakti

2.who is the first object of sacrifice- This I am not sure what it means by first object of sacrifice

3.who was before the first of things- beyond creation, not subject to the fluctuation in matter

4.the creator of the creator of the world- Brahma Ji arises from the Navel of the Sri Vishnu, again though were seeking something beyond what we consider as creation, start and end, causal field of interaction.

5.without any quality/distinction- This perhaps is the crux of understanding transcendental knowledge, to understand Him without any trace of his external energies, Pradhana and Prakriti, absent of the modes of nature and anything which is related to creation. This is the most subtle form of knowledge only gained once our senses and mind is purified and we too are then situated in that field of consciousness.

I am not to fond of the argument on personal and impersonal, not even one-ness and difference in any rigid terms

[devotee]

Namaste,

A small verse but giving deep spiritual insights !

In fact, in Vishnu PurAna, one is advised to meditate upon Vishnu in different stages. In the initial stages, he meditates on the form of Vishnu that we normally associate with Him. Slowly, meditation drops the outer form/alankArs of Vishnu and finally the practitioner meditates upon Him without form.

OM

[smaranam]

Namaste

2.who is the first object of sacrifice- This I am not sure what it means by first object of sacrifice

This is a reference to Purusha SUkta of Rg Veda ManDal 10. BramhaDev conducted a yadnya (fire sacrifice) and the eternal Original Purusha i.e. NArAyaNa was the object of sacrifice because there was nothing else to sacrifice. This made the first yadnya very mangal, pavitra (auspicious) and thereafter creation began.

So this shloka is refering to this Original Adi Purusha who is NArAyaNa, Who is VishNu.

Interestingly, BhagvAn VishNu is also the yadnya-bhokta, the benefactor and consumer of all Vaidic yadnya, thus showing that He is the Adi (beginning) and anta (end) of everything and also anAdi-ananta (beginingless & endless).

Also, it is profound that VishNu is referred to as the pratham, original first object of sacrifice. He has always taken avatAr yuga after yuga, taken upon Himself the rules of created beings, taken up a physical body, and gone through immense trouble just to protect the good and show the mortals the right way.

Bhakta-vatsal that He is, what has He not held, carried, taken up, and gone through for His devotees !

[jopmala]

Namaste devotee,

Actually your “alone” word has misled me to understand that you meant worshiper and not the goal. But now it is clear that by “ alone” you did not mean the worshiper but the goal. So now no problem.

Here is the basic difference between you and me that is , your goal is self realization but my goal is bhagavan sri Krishna . I am telling you why I have concluded bhakti marge is direct path. It is very much clear from verses 2 to 5 of chapter 12 that the worshiper of manifested Brahman are superior ( yuktatamh) and worshiping of unmanifested Brahman is difficult though they too comes to me. It is implied that the path which is easy to follow or which is superior must be direct. Another point,there is nothing between bhakta and bhagavana . Again in verse 2.9 , sri Krishna says “ the supreme secret , holiest of all, directly experienced, righteous, easily performed”. “ pratya-khsa-abagamam dharmayam susukham”. Therefore ,it is clear that the path which is easy to follow is superior , direct and susukham . Now the path of unmanifested Brahman is difficult. you can not define or even think of unmanifested Brahman . you have to take the help of manifested Brahman to reach to the realm of nirguna nirakara Brahman. If you call the path which is “ klesho’dhikara” “ gatir dukhyam” i.e. difficult to follow for “ dehavadbhi” instead of susukham a direct path that will be a misinterpretation of the term ‘ direct’ .

I welcome your proposal to discuss every issue with you . Let us first discuss self realization. I think, the direction of Gita is not only towards self realization. Gita speaks more than that. Verse 29.6 “ the yogi beholds the SELF existing in all beings and all beings in the SELF” and verse 30.6 “ He who sees ME present in all beings and all beings existing within ME, he is not out of my sight nor I am out of his sight”. Here,in these two verses if SELF is ME and ME is SELF that means the meaning of these two verses become same , the question is why same verse repeated ? and if you do not believe in SUPER SELF, the meaning of the verse 31.6 would be SELF dwells in SELF. Is it ? why sri Krishna tells in verse 35.4 “ you will see the entire creation first within your own self and then in ME (bhutani asheshani draksyasy atmany atho moyi). Why sri Krishna in verse 54.18 and 55.18 says “ established in identity with Brahman, such yogi, attains supreme devotion to ME (54) and through that supreme devotion he comes to know ME in reality and thereby knowing ME truly he forthwith merges into ME –(55) ( bishate tadanantaram)”. Verse 27.9 “ Arjune, whatever you do, you eat do that as an offering to ME”—is self ME here ? like this many more verses will tell that self is not ME but of course I believe “self is ME” only in the sense as is said in verse 5.7, 20.10 as vibhuti or manifestation or 42.10 and 7.15 mamoibanso where self is his nature only.

By the way, I would like to mention here that the during the period of Gita , this path of advaita sadhana did not existed in its present form. During that period, jnan yoga used to mean samkhya yoga advocated by the great Kapil Muni. Verses from Chapter 2 of BG is largely quoted by advaitin but this chapter is known as Samkhya yoga not advaita yoga. Gita very clearly in verse 3.3 says “ there are two paths , jnan yoga for samkhya and karma yoga for karmi. Therefore, we should not mix up jnan yoga of samkhya and jnan yoga of advaita sadhana so far Gita is concerned. I think you better know the basic difference between these two branches of jnan yoga. The point to be noted is that samkhya jnan does not believe in the illusionary existence of jagat. The prakriti of samkhya is independent creative power. It creates the jagat in association with purusha .Therefore, it should be borne in mind while reading Gita that the jnan yoga in Gita is not advaitavada which has got its present shape in the hands of sankarachariya. Gita has accepted the creation theory of samkhya philosophy with the exception that both prakriti and purusha belongs to ME i.e. swayam bhagavan sri Krishna ( BG 5.7). therefore, the jnani in Gita is samkhya jnani . the self in Gita is purusha of samkhya .Advaita sadhana has elements from both samkhya yoga and bhakti yoga and karma yoga

[devotee]

Namaste Japmala,

It is very much clear from verses 2 to 5 of chapter 12 that the worshiper of manifested Brahman are superior ( yuktatamh) and worshiping of unmanifested Brahman is difficult though they too comes to me.

This is called interpreting the way you find fit. The verse 2 to 5 doesn't say that those meditating upon unmanifested Brahman are anyway inferior to those who worship manifested Brahman. "Yuktatama" term independently praises those who worship manifested Brahman always with full devotion and fixing their minds on God but not at the cost of JnAn Yogis. The verse doesn't say like that. In fact, the verse 4 gives guarantee that the worshiper of unmainfested Brahman attains Brahman which is missing in verse 2. In Bhagwad Gita, at some places, God has praised the Saguna Bhaktas and at other places He has praised the Nirguna Bhaktas. So, interpretation made by you cannot be considered unbiased.

Again, there is no word in verses 2-5 which means, "too" which you have written in bold. Can you please tell which word means, "too" in the above verses ?

You have again quoted chapter 9 verses but in that chapter verses 4 and 5 are Advaitic in meaning. Again in verse 15, Lord Krishna endorses validity of JnAna yoga. So, you can't say that chapter 9 is dedicated to only Bhakti Yoga and not JnAna yoga. In chapter 4, verse 33 He says that JnAna Yajna is superior and in the same chapter verse 36 He guarantees that JnAna can cleanse him from all sins as there is no better purifier than JnAna in this world ! In same chapter verses 18, 19, 20, 23 and 24 Jnana yoga has been extolled by Lord Krishna in no uncertain terms. in Chapter 5, verses 7, 8-9, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20-21, 24 are all full of JnAna Yoga praises / practices. Chapter 6 is almost fully devoted to JnAna yoga practices and praises. In Chapter 7, verse 17 Lord Krishna clarifies that of all types of Bhaktas, JnAni is the best. Chapter 8, verses 10, 11, 12, 13 are on practices of JnAna Yogis. These verses are echoed in slightly different forms in Katha Upanishad too. In verses 21-22, the unmanifested Brahman has been called the Ultimate state (Parmaam Gatim). So on and so forth ....

I can reel out what Lord Krishna says which are practised by JnAna Yogis in Bhagwad Gita in each chapter, if you are interested. Only the JnAna Yogis follow Lord Krishna's instructions in Bhagwad Gita to the maximum extent ... much more than so called Bhaktas follow what Lord Krishna says.

It is implied that the path which is easy to follow or which is superior must be direct. Another point,there is nothing between bhakta and bhagavana . Again in verse 2.9 , sri Krishna says “ the supreme secret , holiest of all, directly experienced, righteous, easily performed”. “ pratya-khsa-abagamam dharmayam susukham”. Therefore ,it is clear that the path which is easy to follow is superior , direct and susukham . Now the path of unmanifested Brahman is difficult. you can not define or even think of unmanifested Brahman . you have to take the help of manifested Brahman to reach to the realm of nirguna nirakara Brahman. If you call the path which is “ klesho’dhikara” “ gatir dukhyam” i.e. difficult to follow for “ dehavadbhi” instead of susukham a direct path that will be a misinterpretation of the term ‘ direct’.

Can you see that you have tried to "interpret" everywhere the way it suits you ? Please don't give your own interpretations ... please quote directly from what Lord Krishna says. Unless you are from ISKCON or from similar Vaishnava sect which indulges in ridiculing and denigrating other paths much more than their Bhakti on Krishna, I hope you can see where the fault lies.

I welcome your proposal to discuss every issue with you . Let us first discuss self realization. I think, the direction of Gita is not only towards self realization. Gita speaks more than that. Verse 29.6 “ the yogi beholds the SELF existing in all beings and all beings in the SELF” and verse 30.6 “ He who sees ME present in all beings and all beings existing within ME, he is not out of my sight nor I am out of his sight”. Here,in these two verses if SELF is ME and ME is SELF that means the meaning of these two verses become same , the question is why same verse repeated ? and if you do not believe in SUPER SELF, the meaning of the verse 31.6 would be SELF dwells in SELF. Is it ? why sri Krishna tells in verse 35.4 “ you will see the entire creation first within your own self and then in ME (bhutani asheshani draksyasy atmany atho moyi). Why sri Krishna in verse 54.18 and 55.18 says “ established in identity with Brahman, such yogi, attains supreme devotion to ME (54) and through that supreme devotion he comes to know ME in reality and thereby knowing ME truly he forthwith merges into ME –(55) ( bishate tadanantaram)”. Verse 27.9 “ Arjune, whatever you do, you eat do that as an offering to ME”—is self ME here ? like this many more verses will tell that self is not ME but of course I believe “self is ME” only in the sense as is said in verse 5.7, 20.10 as vibhuti or manifestation or 42.10 and 7.15 mamoibanso where self is his nature only.

You have introduced three issues here. In the first issue, you have said that Bhakti is superior to JnAna which I have refuted above. I think you will like to say something on what I have said on that issue and therefore, taking up this or any other issue at this juncture will derail the discussion. We can discuss this later on after resolving the above issue.

By the way, I would like to mention here that the during the period of Gita , this path of advaita sadhana did not existed in its present form. During that period, jnan yoga used to mean samkhya yoga advocated by the great Kapil Muni. Verses from Chapter 2 of BG is largely quoted by advaitin but this chapter is known as Samkhya yoga not advaita yoga. Gita very clearly in verse 3.3 says “ there are two paths , jnan yoga for samkhya and karma yoga for karmi. Therefore, we should not mix up jnan yoga of samkhya and jnan yoga of advaita sadhana so far Gita is concerned. I think you better know the basic difference between these two branches of jnan yoga. The point to be noted is that samkhya jnan does not believe in the illusionary existence of jagat. The prakriti of samkhya is independent creative power. It creates the jagat in association with purusha .Therefore, it should be borne in mind while reading Gita that the jnan yoga in Gita is not advaitavada which has got its present shape in the hands of sankarachariya. Gita has accepted the creation theory of samkhya philosophy with the exception that both prakriti and purusha belongs to ME i.e. swayam bhagavan sri Krishna ( BG 5.7). therefore, the jnani in Gita is samkhya jnani . the self in Gita is purusha of samkhya .Advaita sadhana has elements from both samkhya yoga and bhakti yoga and karma yoga

This you have said earlier too. As this is the basics of Bhakti, JnAna, SAmkhya, I would like to hear from you some answers before we can discuss anything further.

a) Please describe the SAmkhya as propagated by Kapila. You should quote authority for your statements.
b) Please describe what you understand by Advaita path as taught by Shankara.
c) List out the differences between Advaita Path taught by Shankara and Samkhya taught by Kapila.
d) You have claimed that in the time of Gita ... Samkhya was as taught by Kaplia etc etc. ... any authority fort saying so ? When was Bhagwad Gita written ? How do you know that Advaita Sadhana was not practised in current form by Advaitins / SAmkhya Yogis of that time ? Have you heard of Janaka, AshTAvakra being JnAna Yogis ? Have you read Yoga VAshishthya and AshTavakra Gita ? Do you know that Janaka was born much before Bhagwad Gita was spoken by Lord Krishna ? Do you know that Gaudapad was Param Guru of Shankara and he has commented upon Uttar Gita which is fully Advaitic in nature ? In Uttar Gita, Lord Krishna talks on JnAna Yoga to Arjuna. Have you read this ?

Do you think that the scriptures that I have mentioned above support what you said about Shankara or Advaita path ?

Finally, I would like you answer these questions :

a) What are the instructions of Lord Krishna in nutshell for anyone on the path of Dharma ?
b) How many instructions are the core of practices of a Saguna Bhakta i.e. how many instructions are followed by the so-called Bhakta who consider themselves superior ?
c) What do you do as a Bhakta ? Are you following all instructions what Lord Krishna says in BG ? Does he say that you should worship Him in stone image in a temple ? Does He say this anywhere in Bhagwad Gita ? ... and this is what is your core practice ! Are you really a good follower of Lord Krishna ?
d) If you ask me, I can tell you that most of the teachings of Lord Krishna in BG are the core practices of Advaitins. Are you interested ?

... and you still say that BG doesn't advocate JnAna Yoga practice !!

OM

[devotee]

Namaste,

After replying as above, I have been thinking : "Will it be right to call the Advaita VedAntins purely a worshipper of Unmanifested Brahman alone ?" On second thought, I can say that Advaita VedAntins are not truly a worshiper of unmanifested Brahaman alone. Why ? The reasons are :

a) Manifest or unmanifest are mental concepts. Brahman doesn't changes whether we worship Him/Her as manifest or unmanifest as Brahman is beyond these mental concepts. It cannot be said that He/She is manifest alone or unmanifest alone. Brahman is what He / She is.
b) Advaitins start their meditation with prayers dedicated to Saguna Brahman and their Guru(s). In our school, we invoke Saguna Brahman as Lord Krishna in our prayers. While praying to Lord Krishna we do keep His image and name in mind and Lord Krishna is not unmanifest in that name and form.

I think if anyone can be called worshiper of unmanifest Brahman in true sense, it would be the followers of Abrahimic religions. As Buddhists don't accept God, there remains no question of their being a worshiper of Saguna or Nirguna Brahman. The Kabir Panthis, though a staunch Nirguna Brahman worshipers, invoke Lord RAma as Saguna Brahman in their prayers. ... and so do the Sikhs.

When we accept God and pray to Him/Her, it is easy to connect to Him/Her in Saguna aspect. However, Nirguna aspect of Brahman is the sole Reality and everything else is prapancha created by MAyA. So, we cannot stop at Saguna Brahman ... we have to go beyond that. So, Saguna Brahman is one milestone in our spiritual journey and He / She (Saguna Brahman) is the guide and takes care of us on the path as Mother / Father / Guru / God but It is certainly not the final destination. This is what Ramkrishna Paramhansa learnt from his Guru TotApuri. And this is what MuktikA Upanishad says.

OM

[jopmala]

Namaste devotee


My interpretation of verse 2 to 5 of chapter 12 is right. You have to understand the question on verse 1 put by arjune which says who is superior ( ke yogabittama) between bhakta and worshiper of avyaktam aksharam. It is not difficult to understand that Out of two paths if one is superior naturally another is inferior. Here sri Krishna is comparing two paths and says that those who worship me ( mayy aveshya mano ye mam nitya yukta upasate) are superior ( te yukta tama me matah). Therefore the path of bhakti is the best according to sri Krishna. Now it is quite natural that the followers of another path which is difficult also can reach to him which he confirms in verse 3. Therefore the word too here is justified. You have to understand verse 3 and 4 properly. It says those who worships avyaktam anirdesam sarvatra gama achintam kutastham achalam dhruvam aksharam i.e. nirgun nirakar Brahman ATTAIN TO ME. Who is ME here ? it is sagun sakar sri krishna or manifested Brahman. THAT MEANS IF ANY ONE WORSHIPS NIRGUN NIRAKAR BRAHMAN , HE TOO ATTAINS SAGUN SAKAR SRI KRISHNA. You always try to twist the meaning of verse in opposite direction. I know in verse 17/7, sri Krishna says “ jnani is dear to ME” and the reason is “ tesham jnani nityayukta ekabhaktir vishishyate”. Then come to verse 29/9 where sri Krishna says “ I am alike to all beings. Nobody is hateful or dear to ME but those who worship ME devotedly dwell in ME and I too dwell in them ( ye bhajanti tu mam bhaktya mayi te teshu ch’py aham).

Chapter 9 does not have advaitic view which says jagat is illusion or dream. Instead of that here sri Krishna says “taking control of my own prakriti I create again and agin the entire mas of these beings ( visrijani punah punah) (ii) verse 10 “ It is under my lead that prakriti brings forth both animate or inanimate ( moya’dhyaksena prakriti suyate sacharachram)” verse 18 “ gatir bharta prabhu sakshi nivash saranam suhrit------- bijam avyayam” verse 19 “ heat emanates from me as also I send down showers and withhold rain”. These are not illusionary. Last verse of chp 9 says “ fill your mind with me ( manmana bhava) be my devotee ( madbhakto) worship me ( madyaji) and bow down to me ( mam namaskuru) thus untiting your heart with me alone and making me your goal, you shall come to me”. You have to remember that here sri Krishna is sagun sakar.

I am sorry I have never ever said that jnan yoga is invalid. Advaitic jnan yoga says that jagat is mithya , maya is illusionary power, jiva is Brahman. This jnan yoga is not supported in Gita. In the Gita , jagat is created by bhagavan (verse 4 to 14 of chapter 9), maya here is not an illusive power but a creative power, here jiva is to bow down to sri Krishna, worship sri Krishna , jiva can not become bhagavan but can go to bhagavan since he is the nivas (verse 18/9). There is difference between becoming bhagavan and going to bhagavan. If jiva is Brahman then there is no question of jiva going to Brahman”.advaitic jnan yoga contradicts verse 34/9. Actually speaking basic advaitic concepts have no place in the Gita. Can you quote any verse from Gita which means jagat is illusion and jiva is brahma. It is seen that advaitic sadhak try to befool by explaining the word “mithya” means this or that but we know very well that the word mithya does not require any further explanation.

Yes , verse 33/4 says jnan yajna superior but you should also read verse 46/6 and 12/12. Yes , verse 36/4 says that jnan can cleanse all sins but you should also read verse 30/9.

You refered to verses from chapter 4 and 5 which are all related to karma yoga. Here I would like to mention verse 5/5 which says that both samkhya and karmayogis reach the same status or goal. Also read Verse 6/5 and 19/3. Again verse 38/4 which says that there is nothing on earth so pure as jnan. The same verse also says that he who has reached perfection through karma yoga realizes all by himself in course of time. Having said that I would like to ask you where do you find karma in advaita sadhana since its foundation is vivartabada. Achariya sankar supported this doctrine strongly and has written extensively on sannyashvada. He wrote “ Danda grahana matrena naro narayano bhabet” meaning as soon as one accepts sannyash by accepting danda, he becomes Narayana”. Where is karma in a situation which is free from maya or nirguna ? Karma comes out of three gunas that is maya or ajnan so how is karma and jnan reside on same platform ? after attaining jnan , jiva jagat and iswara all melt away and only nirguna advaita tattva remains and there is no karma but Gita says that even Atmaram also need not stop performing karma. if jnanbadi or sannyasbadi supported karma then sri Krishna would not have given so much lecture on karma in chapter 3,4,5,7. It is surprising to see the present advaita sadhakas support karma yoga. Keeping karma and jnan in the same platform is like keeping light and dark on the same spot at a given time which is quite not possible.