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Thread: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

  1. #41
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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    With reference to verse 10/5, I would like to know from you as to how karma will be founded or consigned to Brahman since Brahman is nirgun nirakar. I think this verse is to be linked with 3/30. Therefore ‘mayi sarbani karmani samnashya or karma samarpan to bhagavan and brahma nadhyaya karmani’ or reposing of karma on Brahman is not same .

    If 21/8 says unmanifested brahman is the ultimate state then verse 7/7 says “there is nothing whatever that excels ME” ( mattah parataram na’nyat ) . Here ‘ME’ means sagun sakar sri Krishna and not nirguna nirakar Brahman. By the way , all “I”s, “ME”s, “MY”s in Gita always mean sagun sakr sri Krishna. Again 22/8 says that the param purush can be attained by anannya bhakti only or single minded devotion. Moreover , you should not forget what sri Krishna says in verse 18/15 “ yasmat ksharam atito’ham aksharad api chottam/ ato’smo loke vede cha prathitah purushottamah” that means “ since I transcend the perishable and excel the Imperishable , I am known in the Vedas and in this world as the supreme person or Purushottam”. The identity of perishable and Imperishable has been explained in verse 16/15. Verse 19 says “ the undeluded person ( asammudho) who thus knows ME as the Purushottam or supreme person knows all that can be known and he worships ME with his whole being ( sa sarvavid bhajati mam sarvabhavena). Purushottam does not mean nirgun nirakar Brahman and this chapter ( 15) is known as Purushottam yoga. Have you ever tried to explain this chapter in the light of advaita philosophy? You follow one aspect of Brahman that is unmanifested aspect which is the only truth to you and also your goal but Brahman has a manifested aspect whom you call a product of maya. You keep nirgun brhman in parmarthika level which is beyond the reach of maya and sagun Brahman in vyavaharika level that is within the reach of maya . in other words sagun sakar Brahman is not ultimate truth. In this way you show your disregards to sri Krishna bhagavan . the amount of time you japa Krishna nam , the same amount of time you think in yourself that there is no Krishna at all. The philosophy of advaita sadhana is “ TO NEGATE” only. That is why your path is incomplete path. In Gita , jnan does not mean to realize jagat is illusion or jiva is Brahman. In Gita , Jagat is the manifestation of Brahman and jiva is to attain Brahman .

    I would like to mention what Gita says about nirguna nirvishes Brahman ( anadi matparam Brahman) . Chapter 13 of Gita ,verse 12 says “ Brahman is neither sat nor asat” ,verse 13 says “ everywhere are his hands and feet his eyes ,heads and faces are on all sides and everywhere are his ears” , verse 14 says “ he seems to have functions of the senses and is yet devoid of the senses, is unattached and yet sustains everything, is unaffected by the gunas and yet enjoys them”, verse 15 says “ he exists without and within all beings, he is unmoving and also moving, he is beyond grasp being too subtle. He is utterly distant and yet so near”. Do you agree with all these verses ?

    I am happy to inform you that I am neither member f ISKON nor any so called organized vaishnab sect. I am simply a follower of chaitanya mahaprabhu. I can assure you that I do not interpret Gita verses the way that suits me. You have not shown any such case. You can quote from any version and I am sure the meaning will be same. I am also not denigrating other paths. Have I said the path of jnan is unauthorized ? It is Gita which says that the path of bhakti is easy and the path of jnan is difficult. It is beyond understanding why a believer will choose a difficult path to reach the same goal where he can reach by following the easier path. We should understand the intention or direction of sri Krishna which comes through teaching to arjune.

    I do not think you see yourself on the same platform with samkhya jnani . and I also believe that you need not hear from me about samkhya yoga . According to samkhya school , the ultimate reality is not Brahman. It has a dual character- purusha and prakriti. Both are without a beginning and eternal. Prakriti possessing attributes is capable of creation all by herself but purusha without attributes merely a spectator. The union of the two results in creation. Salvation results when one learns to distinguish between purusha and prakriti. But in Gita sri Krishna says that purusha is MY Para prakriti and prakriti is MY Apara prakriti. (Verse 5/7).This para prakriti is nothing but jiva tattva. In verse 20/10 clearly says that atma or self is his manifestation or vibhuti amongst many other vibhutis. But you will say jiva is Brahman. He is self in the sense that self is his vibhuti just like sun or moon also are his vibhutis that does not mean that sun or moon are illusion or something like that which does not exist . please do not ask for silly question like authority of kapil samkhya.I think you should clarify the difference between two branches of jnan yoga that is samkhya of kapil and advaita of sankara since you belong to jnan yoga.

    In verse 3/3. Sri Krishna says “ there are two courses of spiritual discipline i.e. jnanyogena samkhyanam and karmayogena yoginam”. This is the authority of the fact that advaita jnan in its present form was not the subject of discussion during the period of Gita. I think you should remember verse 20/3 which says that it was karma only through which Janaka and other reached perfection. Like you I may also refer to so many scriptures which are meant for bhakti only. I only prefer Sri Mad Bhagavad Gita to other Gitas as you mentioned. There may be many more Gitas which came after Bhagavad Gita. These are all written for the sake of sampradaya or to fulfil the interest of a particular sect. Bhagavad Gita can not be compared with them.

    Instruction of sri Krishna in Gita :- Just read verse 55of chap 11and verses 64,65 , 66 of chap 18. These are all related to bhakti marg.

    Personally I am follower of sri chaitanya mahaprabhu who is avatara of sri Krishna in kaliyug. Therefore, I have to follow what sri Krishna instructed in Gita. By the way I do not offer puja to any stone image nor in any murthi. Rag marg bhakti does not care about any image of sri Krishna. But you should read verse 23 to 25 of chap 9. Hindus are pratima pujuk but not idolator. You should know what does ‘pratima’ means. Swami Vivekananda has written about why hindu worship bhagavan in pratima. Lila kirtan of bhagavan sri Krishna is the only source of developing bhakti ( verse 14/9) and ( verse 9/4 which says HIS divine birth and activities in their true nature). Now , to you, this jagat is mithya, an illusion created by maya . then how will you understand HIS divine birth and activities in a illusionary world. I am unable to understand how do you believe in the avatara of Brahman in this dream world. Would you tell me that avatarvada is a concept of a dream world ?

    Can you take reguge in HIM in everyway and enjoy tatprasadam ( verse 62/18). If you feel shy of thinking yourself dasa of sri Krishna ( you use the term as slave) ? Can you follow verses 58/18 , 65/18 and 66/18 without being HIS dasa ? I am interested to know how or in which way you as a jnani follow all the core instructions of sri Krishna in BG .

    If you are not worshiper of unmanifested Brahman alone then what else ? I do not agree with you that manifest or unmanifest are mental concepts. I believe Brahman borns and reborns in this world from age to age for protecting the virtuous, for destroying the wicked and for setting dharma on firm foundation ( yada yada hi). I believe, being a worshiper of nirgun nirakar Brahman, you can not think or define Brahman. Therefore it is mental to you. I believe everytime you invoke sagun Brahman or sri Krishna, all the time you negate him in your mind as he is a part of prapancha created by Maya. We bhaktivadi do not believe anything beyond sri Krishna ( Mattah parataram na’nyat – 7/7).
    Last edited by jopmala; 31 August 2015 at 01:59 PM.

  2. #42
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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste Japmala,

    My interpretation of verse 2 to 5 of chapter 12 is right. You have to understand the question on verse 1 put by arjune which says who is superior ( ke yogabittama) between bhakta and worshiper of avyaktam aksharam. It is not difficult to understand that Out of two paths if one is superior naturally another is inferior. Here sri Krishna is comparing two paths and says that those who worship me ( mayy aveshya mano ye mam nitya yukta upasate) are superior ( te yukta tama me matah). Therefore the path of bhakti is the best according to sri Krishna. Now it is quite natural that the followers of another path which is difficult also can reach to him which he confirms in verse 3. Therefore the word too here is justified.
    If you start a discussion with the stance that Only your interpretation is correct then all doors of discussion get closed and it becomes a futile exercise to indulge in any discussion. You must be ready to see why the other party doesn't agree to what you say. Why do I say that your interpretation is wrong ? Let's see what the verses actually say.

    a) In 1st verse Arjuna asks who is the best knower of Yoga i.e. path of Union with God, the worshiper of Saguna Brahman or the Nirguna Brahman. However, this question is invalid as Lord Krishna said earlier, " SAmkhya yogau prithak bAlAh pravadanti na panditAh". Both the paths lead to God if the seeker follows the paths correctly.

    b) As the question is not valid and God doesn't want to say who is superior or inferior, He says, "MayyAveshya mano ye maam nityayukta upasate shradhyaya paryopetAste me yuktatamA matAh". Please read the verse correctly. Yes, that Saguna Brahman devotee is the best in yoga who has fixed his mind on God alone and who with full devotion worship nd all the time united with God (in his thoughts and actions). So, it doesn't say that a Saguna Brahman worshiper is better than a Nirguna Brahman worshiper. It says that a Saguna Brahman worshiper who has such and such qualities is the best yogi. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Please take due care to notice that it is not the path which has been called the best in the verse but the bhakta who passes a predefined criteria. Now, the criteria is that the said best bhakta must always have fixed his mind and "älways" in union with Lord Krishna. Right ? However, if one is always in union with Krishna, how does the path matter at all ? The highest aim is to be in union with Lord Krishna and if it can be attained by Bhakti ... go for it. But the way bhakti is practised by most of the devotees ... I have serious doubts that even 1% of them would achieve that state.

    c) After saying the above, He should have stopped if that (eulogizing the Bhakta) was the final and sufficient answer for what Arjuna was seeking. He didn't stop there. He immediately adds in verses 3 and 4 :

    "Those who worship Nirguna Brahman, who have their senses in control and who maintain equanimity everywhere and who act for the benefit of all beings attain Me alone".

    ===> Let's pause here and take some note. What is the reward offered to the Nirguna Brahman Yogi ? Lord Krishna Himself and nothing less !! ... and you say that it is inferior path ?? ... and what is offered to a Saguna Brahman Yogi ? Lord Krishna says in verse 6,7 and 8 (if you insist that these verses are for the Saguna Brahman Yogis) ...

    i) Those Saguna Bhaktas (note it that is not for all Saguna Brahman yogis and it doesn't apply to all who follow Bhakti Path. It is not for the path but only for the select bhaktas.) :

    Verse 6 and 7 :

    Who dedicate all their actions to God, worship by meditating on God (Me) with utmost devotion are awarded with liberation from this world of births and deaths.

    Verse 8 :

    Fix your mind to Me invest your intelligence into Me, and then you will reside in Me and there is no doubt on it.

    ===> So, what are the rewards offered to such Sagun Brahman Yogis ? Liberation and living in Lord Krishna. That is all ! ... and that also only to those Bhaktas who qualify as per the verses and not to all Saguna Bhaktas. But what does Nirguna Brahman worshiper gets ? "Lord Krishna alone" ! i.e. he gets the whole of Krishna. So, who gets a better reward ? The Nirguna Brahman worshiper !! Because he gets the whole of Krishna as He really is !

    So, that is our goal. To get the whole of Krishna and nothing less. We don't want to feel separation from Him by just staying within Him (BTW, what is the big deal in residing within Krishna ? All beings anyway are always within Him alone !) because there is duality and that is not acceptable to us... we are already staying within Him ... we are never ever separated from Him. So, we don't want this reward. Let that reward be offered to Saguna Bhaktas. We want the whole of Krishna and that is what He graciously offers in verse 4.

    So, if you still say that ours is an inferior path, we don't mind at all ! We want whole of Lord Krishna as He really is and we are not at all interested in ego-fights. Lord Krishna has said in unequivocal terms in Chapter 7 Verse - 17 He says that JnAni bhakta is the best and He is more dear to Him. Again in Chapter 7 verse - 18 He says, "JnAni tu Atma eva" ... i.e. JnAni is just like Him ! Just imagine ... Lord Krishna gives JnAni the same status as He Himself is. ... and that is endorsed by VedAnta ... On Self Realisation, individual self merges with the Self just like water mixes with water. There is no difference. What other proof you need to accept that your interpretation is completely wrong ?? So, a JnAni is offered a status equal to God by God Himself ! Why so ? Because the JnAni is not worried to maintain his separate identity which a bhakta wants to maintain. JnAni wants to dissolve himself into God ... so that only God remains and his own petty separate painful identity is lost into God.

    Yes, the path is difficult and it is not for not-so-strong-minded people. It is not for those who are mediocre in spirituality, so it is not advisable for the common masses. They will fall if they tread this difficult path and that is why an easier path is advised for them. This is what the VedAnta says. After all, everyone cannot study Science and Technology ... so they are advised to study Arts / Commerce. You can excel by reading Arts/commerce too and sometimes may do much better than an average science student. It doesn't mean that studying Arts / commerce is better than studying Science and Technology. It depends upon what you are. A good student of Arts/Commerce is certainly better than a mediocre student of Science. So, a good bhakta may be better than a mediocre JnAn path yogi. But that doesn't mean that JnAn yoga as a path is inferior to Bhakti path.

    =====================================

    So, in a nutshell, what are the mistakes you are making when you are interpreting the verses ? Please note your mistakes as enumerated below :

    a) God never ever says which path is superior or inferior. He talks about a Saguna Bhakta who meets a certain specified criteria and a Nirguna Bhakta with desired qualities.

    b) He nowhere uses the word, "too". Please don't put your words into Lord Krishna's mouth.

    c) Though Nirguna Bhakta's path is difficult his reward is the best one ... he attains Lord Krishna as He is. This interpretation matched Shruti and therefore is the only acceptable interpretation.

    d) Nowhere Lord Krishna says that "ME" means Saguna Brahman alone. Please show me where He says so. You are completely confused about Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman and you are again putting your words in Lord Krishna's mouth. Please stop it. Brahman with MAyA in action is Saguna Brahman and Brahman with MAyA at rest is Nirguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman is the ultimate Reality. So, same Brahman is perceived as Saguna (when perceived under the veil of MAyA) which in reality is Nirguna.

    e) Your interpretation of BG is in contradiction to what Shruti i.e. VedAnta says and therefore it is not acceptable. You are forgetting that Bhagwad Gita is Smriti and not Shruti. Bhagwad Gita cannot be interpreted in a manner which violates Shruti.

    f) You are confused about Mithya. You say that you very well know what it means. If you would know that then the path of Advaita would not be difficult for you. But unfortunately, it doesn't appear so by your posts. MithyA is not an easy concept. If you are eager, I can try to explain MithyA to you.

    g) It is clear that you don't know what Kapila's SAmkhya says and what is the difference between SAmkhya described in BG and SAmkhya of Kapila. We can discuss this later on. If you have time, please study the required scriptures. The question is not silly. You don't know the answer. In fact, this is what some teachers do, if they don't know the answer of a question. It is so easy to say, "Don't ask silly questions".

    The reply has become too long and therefore, it would be futile to take up any other issue at this stage.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 02 September 2015 at 09:05 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #43
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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste devotee


    If you start a discussion with the stance that Only your interpretation is correct then all doors of discussion get closed and it becomes a futile exercise to indulge in any discussion. You must be ready to see why the other party doesn't agree to what you say. Why do I say that your interpretation is wrong ? Let's see what the verses actually say.
    Sorry, I can not stop laughing reading your latest post. See, I do not find any difference between your translation of verses and mine but the way you are trying to explain the verses is quite interesting to me. You are trying to differentiate between bhakta and the path of bhakti. you should know the bhakta is who follow the path of bhakti marg. Again you are trying to differentiate between (i) reward of liberation from this world of births and deaths , residing in sri Krishna (ME) enjoyed by sagun bhakta and (ii) getting the whole of sri Krishna enjoyed by nirguna worshiper. you say, nirguna worshiper is better rewarded then sagun bhakta. According to you, if one follows easy path he will get only liberation from samsar and reside in sri Krishna and on the other hand one who follows difficult path will get whole of sri Krishna. Wow! What a interpretation. The path of jnan is meant for ‘ so-strong-minded’ people and the path of bhakti is meant for common masses. What the ‘ so-strong-minded’ people will get by following difficult path – they will get the whole of sri Krishna. And what the common masses will get by following easiest path – they will get just part of sri Krishna in the form of liberation from samsar and residing in ME ,i.e. sri Krishna. Really the follower of jnan marg is highly benefitted. I wish if I had such intelligence or talent, I would have tried your path to get the whole of sri Krishna. For the first time I have heard such a statement – “ whole of sri Krishna”. can you tell me what " whole of sri krishna" consists of ? the limit of a jnani is to attain moksha . Is mokshna all about " whole of sri krishna". when a jnani is considered to be in the state of mokshna ?

    Let viewers of HDF decide who is interpreting properly.

    Arjune is that bhakta who has witnessed “ vishwarupa” and sri Krishna says in verse 53/11 “ neither by the study of Vedas nor by tapashya ( penance), dana ( charity), yajna ( sacrifices) can I be seen in the form in which you have seen ME now”. Therefore, I do not dare to say the question asked by the dearest of dear bhakts of sri Krishna as invalid.

    Before commenting on the % of bhakta who would qualify to the standard status you set, you should look at who is getting “ maha mandaleshwar” from which akhda, how the jnani followers are black mailing the govt by keeping a dead body of one of the famous jnani of today’s India in the name of Samadhi ( ashutosh maharaj of divya jyoti jagriti sansthan). And so many cases of this sort has created doubt in me as to how much % of jnani are qualified for jnani status. Truly speaking the % of follower is not our point of discussion. I always want to avoid this but you always bring this issue. We should not involve those who are not qualified to the desired status of the path they follow.

    Jnani bhakta is always dear to Bhagavan sri Krishna but what is the jnan sri Krishna refers to here ? is it the jnan that says the world is mithya, is it the jnan that says jiva is Brahman, is it the jnan that says sri Krishna or sagun Brahman is within the reach of maya being in the vyavaharika level of truth (not in parmarthima level) , is it the jnan that says the world is illusion created by maya. Therefore I want you to establish the jnan marg you follow is at par what sri Krishna refers to in the BG and then claim yourself to get better rewarded. It is my firm belief ( I can prove my belief to be true) that the jnan marge of advaita school is not what jnan marg referred to in the BG by sri Krishna. Jnan marg of advaita based on vivartabada which supports sannyashbada or renouncing of karma and Gita has vehemently opposed sannyashbada. Not a single word is found in BG about advaita jnan marg. If you like to be with the philosophy of samkhya jnan which is the only jnan marg referred to in the BG, you should clarify your position on creation of world advocated by samkhya philosophy. Mere shouting on being believer of non duality is not the only criteria to become jnani so far BG is concerned. you should also clarify advaita jnan in the light of purushottam yoga of BG.

    In the BG, sri Krishna is talking to Arjune directly. What more proof you need to understand “I”, “ME” ,”MY” is sagun sakar Brahman ? Can nirgun nirakar Brahman talk or think or advise.

    I am surprised to see your acknowledgement ,” brahman with maya in action and . “ Brahman with maya at rest” what is this ? maya with Brahman even in nirgun state ? do you mean maya in turiya state or else ? In your earlier posts you wrote brahman + maya = sagun brahman , naturally brahman without maya is nirgun brahman . Is nirgun brahman and Brahman with maya at rest same ? or is there another Brahman which is without maya whom we call nirguna ! if it is so why do you keep sagun Brahman at vyavaharika level and nirgun Brahman at parmarthika level ? why such discrimination ? if maya is with Brahman both in action or at rest , why not both nirgun and sagun Brahman be in parmarthika level ? . If nirguna Brahman is the ultimate reality , naturally sagun Brahman is not ultimate reality . “Brahman in action” is perceived i.e. not real. You should tell directly that there is no sagun Brahman at all. Since personality in perception can not act and it is useless to go with such perceived personality perceived action etc etc which is why I always ask you what is the utility of brhman being in action or for what reason nirgun Brahman become sagun. How is all pervaindig quallity of Brahman justified where everything is perceived. Here is nothing but brhaman is all pervading . If sagun Brahman is perceived then his action is also perceived that means there is no karma at all. According to you, sri Krishna is just perception. The kurukshetra war is perception. Sri Krishna telling arjune “ The Bhavad Gita” is also perception. Vedas , Upanishad from whre you gain jnan are all perception, nothing is real. The BG has not supported such jnan. The jnani in BG is different from a advaita jnani. In BG the jnani is to believe that sagun Brahman has created this world. It is not perceived, it is created.

    Do you believe nirguna Brahman is both sat and asat according to BG ?

    It is not wise to put restriction to discuss the verses of BG on the ground of sruti or smriti. I care only for truth , be it from sruti or smritiis does not matter. Lastly, You have pointed out my mistakes just like a teacher points out to the student. I like your style of teaching.
    Last edited by jopmala; 02 September 2015 at 12:10 PM.

  4. #44
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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste devotee

    I am sorry to say that I am not in the business of any deal with sri Krishna bhagavan be it big deal or small deal. If we are already staying within him then where is the question of getting whole of him? Since sri Krishna gives the jnani same status as HE HIMSELF is , I may wish you good luck only for you being in the process of becoming bhagavan sri Krishna swayam. According to you, on self realization, individual self merges with the self just like water mixes with water. Now the question here is who is individual self and who is self here and why self is going to mix with self. how can self mix with self if there is no up and down position between them ? When water mixes with water, one portion of water is to flow from other end. But here there is no other end, only HE everywhere. First you believe that there is water in other end then you believe that the water in other end is only illusion or perception. Therefore the conclusion is “ water of perception is going to mix with water of reality” is it reasonable conclusion?

    you are again confusing with " alone". I cleared it in prev post when you could not show the very word which means " alone"

    Achieving the lotus feet of sri Krishna is not the subject matter of science and tech or arts and commerce. Therefore comparison should be reasonable. There may be other criteria in selecting science and arts for study by students which involve worldly benefits like more money high status in society more exposer etc etc . we the bhaktas do not want these benefits.

    You should realize that sri Krishna bhagavan is telling all these to arjune with a view to compare the paths to be followed. In any comparison, one of the views must come out to be supiror otherwise there is no need for a comparison. Arjune also put the question with a view to follow the best path. Same type of question answer followed in chapter 3 vesrse 2 between karma and samkhy jnan. You have twisted the verses so much and ultimately you conclude to the result of “ whole of Krishna” and “ just liberation from samsar and residing in Krishna” whereas I do not find any difference between these aspects of your conclusion.

    If brhman is perceived as sagun under the veil of maya, that Brahman itself has no attributes, he is seen with attributes because of the optics through which we are seeing HIM. That means Brahman is all pervading because of the optics through which we are seeing him. Who made the lenses of this optics which can convert nothing into everything ? why do you deny the shakti or power of the maker of the lenses of this magical optics ? if HE is not actually all pervading, why do you call him all pervading ? The power of Brahman that is maya is not considered for veiling Brahman himself in the form of indivual. The gunas of satta raja and tama should be studied in true perspective. Satta guna never work to deceive or veil . these gunas are creative in nature not veiling or deceiving. Through maya sri Krishna creates this world . this world is coming from the sri krishn’s end . it is not magic that there is no world at all but through a magical optics we are seeing a world. If sankarachariya had not seen rope and snake in reality in his life time, he could not have told rope in snake analogy. What we see , that must be physically present that is concluded by science. Reflection also involves the physical presence of the object in question.

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste japmala,

    Quote Originally Posted by jopmala View Post
    Sorry, I can not stop laughing reading your latest post. See, I do not find any difference between your translation of verses and mine but the way you are trying to explain the verses is quite interesting to me. You are trying to differentiate between bhakta and the path of bhakti. you should know the bhakta is who follow the path of bhakti marg.
    I am not surprised at all with your above writing ! When you are completely disarmed then you must laugh like a defeated soldier ! Anyway, that is nothing but "Jalpa" and I am not interested in that. Yes, it is clear that in spite of my explanation, you are not clear on a "path" and the "follower of a path". It is difficult for me to digest how you are unable to see the difference between the two. Are Bhakti and Bhakta the same ? Is Engineering and an Engineer the same ? Now tell me, what is superior ? Engineering or Medical ? Instead of answering that if I say that the Engineer who can design and maintain the most challenging machine is the best. And then I add that a Doctor who can cure even the worst killing disease is most adorable and worthy. Which profession did I consider superior ?

    This is not a rocket science that you find it difficult to understand. The problem is that you have come with a clear bias and seeing every verse in BG with your colored vision and that is why all this problems that you face.

    Again you are trying to differentiate between (i) reward of liberation from this world of births and deaths , residing in sri Krishna (ME) enjoyed by sagun bhakta and (ii) getting the whole of sri Krishna enjoyed by nirguna worshiper. you say, nirguna worshiper is better rewarded then sagun bhakta. According to you, if one follows easy path he will get only liberation from samsar and reside in sri Krishna and on the other hand one who follows difficult path will get whole of sri Krishna. Wow! What a interpretation. The path of jnan is meant for ‘ so-strong-minded’ people and the path of bhakti is meant for common masses. What the ‘ so-strong-minded’ people will get by following difficult path – they will get the whole of sri Krishna. And what the common masses will get by following easiest path – they will get just part of sri Krishna in the form of liberation from samsar and residing in ME ,i.e. sri Krishna. Really the follower of jnan marg is highly benefitted. I wish if I had such intelligence or talent, I would have tried your path to get the whole of sri Krishna. For the first time I have heard such a statement – “ whole of sri Krishna”. can you tell me what " whole of sri krishna" consists of ? the limit of a jnani is to attain moksha . Is mokshna all about " whole of sri krishna". when a jnani is considered to be in the state of mokshna ?
    Most of what you have written is "Jalpa" but I must explain what I meant by saying "Whole of Krishna". Lord uses the word, "MAmeva" i.e. Me alone ... nothing more and nothing less. The Saguna Bhakta also gets Krishna through his Bhakti but the duality remains. He only sees unreal Krishna i.e. veiled under MAyA projected with form and name which are not real. That is why Lord Krishna says that such a Bhakta resides in Him that the form and name still remain and duality remains. By "Whole of Krishna"
    I mean as He really is. Bhakta is tethered to duality and therefore he can't go beyond duality. He doesn't attain the Real Krishna who is beyond form and gunas and names. JnAni attains the Nirguna Brahman who is the real Krishna and whenever JnAni wishes he can also interact with Lord Krishna in Saguna rupa. So, JnAni gets both teh Sguna and Nirguna Rupa of Krishna whereas the Bhakta gets only one aspect of Krishna.

    I hope, I am able to clarify the term that I used.

    Arjune is that bhakta who has witnessed “ vishwarupa” and sri Krishna says in verse 53/11 “ neither by the study of Vedas nor by tapashya ( penance), dana ( charity), yajna ( sacrifices) can I be seen in the form in which you have seen ME now”. Therefore, I do not dare to say the question asked by the dearest of dear bhakts of sri Krishna as invalid.
    That is your look out. I have already said why Arjuna's question is invalid.

    Before commenting on the % of bhakta who would qualify to the standard status you set, you should look at who is getting “ maha mandaleshwar” from which akhda, how the jnani followers are black mailing the govt by keeping a dead body of one of the famous jnani of today’s India in the name of Samadhi ( ashutosh maharaj of divya jyoti jagriti sansthan). And so many cases of this sort has created doubt in me as to how much % of jnani are qualified for jnani status. Truly speaking the % of follower is not our point of discussion. I always want to avoid this but you always bring this issue. We should not involve those who are not qualified to the desired status of the path they follow.
    Don't tell me that ! You must not have forgotten AshArAm and his son till now and many such people surfaced in the past. Moreover, what you have missed the point that I wanted you to note is that there can be good bhakta and there can be a not-so-goood bhakta and similarly, there can be good jnAna-yogi and not-so-good JnAn-yogi. You can choose any path you like but if you excel in that chosen path you can always reach the Ultimate which is your goal. I find most of the Bhaktas have become ritualistic. They say that they follow Bhagwad Gita and I find that they don't. I will tell you and enumerate what God wants us to do and you will admit that so-called arrogant Bhaktas are actually far away from his teachings.

    Jnani bhakta is always dear to Bhagavan sri Krishna but what is the jnan sri Krishna refers to here ? is it the jnan that says the world is mithya, is it the jnan that says jiva is Brahman, is it the jnan that says sri Krishna or sagun Brahman is within the reach of maya being in the vyavaharika level of truth (not in parmarthima level) , is it the jnan that says the world is illusion created by maya. Therefore I want you to establish the jnan marg you follow is at par what sri Krishna refers to in the BG and then claim yourself to get better rewarded. It is my firm belief ( I can prove my belief to be true) that the jnan marge of advaita school is not what jnan marg referred to in the BG by sri Krishna. Jnan marg of advaita based on vivartabada which supports sannyashbada or renouncing of karma and Gita has vehemently opposed sannyashbada. Not a single word is found in BG about advaita jnan marg. If you like to be with the philosophy of samkhya jnan which is the only jnan marg referred to in the BG, you should clarify your position on creation of world advocated by samkhya philosophy. Mere shouting on being believer of non duality is not the only criteria to become jnani so far BG is concerned. you should also clarify advaita jnan in the light of purushottam yoga of BG.
    If you allow me and don't raise further issues in this post, I will like to take up this issue. I will explain what Kapila's SAmkhya is, i what ways it differs from JnAn-yoga taught by Lord Krishna in BG. I will also try to dispel your doubts over MAyA, illusion, "MAya at rest" in action, Saguna Brahman, Nirguna Brahman etc. But you have to allow me to explain and not start new issues when I am explaining these.

    I will also show to to you that it is only the JnAn-yoga followers who follow Lord Krishna's instructions to the maximum extent and how the so-called Bhaktas have got stuck to only a few verses of Bhagwad Gita. You can see yourself : You have got stuck to only 5-10 verses of Bhagwad Gita and forgotten everything else what Lord Krishna instructed elsewhere.

    In the BG, sri Krishna is talking to Arjune directly. What more proof you need to understand “I”, “ME” ,”MY” is sagun sakar Brahman ? Can nirgun nirakar Brahman talk or think or advise.
    My dear friend, Brahman is same and so Lord Krishna remains the same in essence whether you worship Him as Saguna or Nirguna. Nirguna Brahman cannot talk and think. But tell me one thing. When you are sleeping, you can't talk or think. Right ? You can talk or think only when you are awake. Are sleeping Japmala and Awake Japmala different from each other ?? What are you saying, brother ?

    I am surprised to see your acknowledgement ,” brahman with maya in action and . “ Brahman with maya at rest” what is this ? maya with Brahman even in nirgun state ? do you mean maya in turiya state or else ? In your earlier posts you wrote brahman + maya = sagun brahman , naturally brahman without maya is nirgun brahman . Is nirgun brahman and Brahman with maya at rest same ? or is there another Brahman which is without maya whom we call nirguna ! if it is so why do you keep sagun Brahman at vyavaharika level and nirgun Brahman at parmarthika level ? why such discrimination ? if maya is with Brahman both in action or at rest , why not both nirgun and sagun Brahman be in parmarthika level ? . If nirguna Brahman is the ultimate reality , naturally sagun Brahman is not ultimate reality . “Brahman in action” is perceived i.e. not real. You should tell directly that there is no sagun Brahman at all. Since personality in perception can not act and it is useless to go with such perceived personality perceived action etc etc which is why I always ask you what is the utility of brhman being in action or for what reason nirgun Brahman become sagun. How is all pervaindig quallity of Brahman justified where everything is perceived. Here is nothing but brhaman is all pervading . If sagun Brahman is perceived then his action is also perceived that means there is no karma at all. According to you, sri Krishna is just perception. The kurukshetra war is perception. Sri Krishna telling arjune “ The Bhavad Gita” is also perception. Vedas , Upanishad from whre you gain jnan are all perception, nothing is real. The BG has not supported such jnan. The jnani in BG is different from a advaita jnani. In BG the jnani is to believe that sagun Brahman has created this world. It is not perceived, it is created.
    It is difficult for you understand all this because you are tethered to one style of thinking. Unless you leave that stance, it will be certainly difficult for you to understand all this. That is why JnAna Yoga won't suit you.


    Do you believe nirguna Brahman is both sat and asat according to BG ?
    The Bhagwad Gita doesn't say that Nirguna Brahman is both Sat and Asat. It says Brahman is neither sat nor asat. You may please read the verses correctly. If I am wrong, please correct me.

    It is not wise to put restriction to discuss the verses of BG on the ground of sruti or smriti. I care only for truth , be it from sruti or smritiis does not matter. Lastly, You have pointed out my mistakes just like a teacher points out to the student. I like your style of teaching.
    It has to be discussed that way alone. See, all the ShAstrArtha that has happened in the past have some basic PraMANas which must be accepted by both parties. Shabda PramANa i.e. Shruti is accepted by all schools of VedAnta. So, we must refer back to Shruti whenever we are in doubt. Again, can I ask you, why you don't quote from"Üttar Gita" which was spoken by Lord Krishna to Arjuna at the time of His death ? Why do we take one authority and conveniently forget the other authority ? Is Bhagwad Giat the only scripture in Hindu Dharma which is the authority ? That would not be wise. We accept what Lord Krishna says as per our understanding in one scripture but when what He says in another scripture contradicts our understanding of the chosen scripture, we don't want to accept that authority. Right ? You choose a scripture and take out any meaning whatever you want cleverly leaving aside other scriptures which don't suit you !!

    See, if we don't refer to other scriptures, we try to take out own meaning, laugh at what others say ( as you laughed at my posts above), ridicule other's points ... there is no hope of any fruitful discussion. This only means that you have created your own make-believe world and you don't want to budge even an inch from there. So, why are we breaking our heads in this discussion ??

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 03 September 2015 at 12:31 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste Japmala,

    you are again confusing with " alone". I cleared it in prev post when you could not show the very word which means " alone"
    This is quite surprising ! I told you the translation and yet this question again ?? "Maameva" = Maam + eva == Me + alone ==> Me alone. What is the problem ?? I have written it earlier too. I don't understand what confuses you. Can you please clarify ?

    Do you think that I am in habit of putting words in the mouth of Lord Krishna as you do ? Sorry, unless it is obvious and required for clarification of the verse, I won't do it. In this case, it is the literal translation of the term. You can ask any person who understands Sanskrit.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Devoteeji Namaste

    I just laughed at your imaginative explanation of the verses of BG which is seen or read nowhere in this world. I am challenging you if you can show me one name of any commentator on BG verses who explained verses 1-5 of chap 12 in conformity with you. Every commentator of BG irrespective of his spiritual alignment be it from ancient or modern period has explained these verses in the same way that everyone follow but yours is only one that is followed by you only.

    I am very much clear on ‘path’ and ‘follower of path’. You can not distort the meaning to suit your liking or disliking. You believe that the question asked by arjune is invalid. Someday you will say that Bhagavad Gita is invalid and only uttar gita is to be followed. What are you trying to establish here ? Has sri krishna in verse 5/12 referred to the follower or the path ? The jnani is difficult or the path of jnan marg is difficult ? the comparison is clear between those who follow sagun sakar Brahman and those who not. The path is determined accordingly. Sri krishna says , “those who worship ME” . and “those who worship avyaktam aksharam “. Now I want to ask you which path is associated with ME or nam rupa sagun sakar sri Krishna and which path is associated with avyaktam aksharam or nirugn nirakar Brahman ? you identify yourself as jnani because you are following the path of jnan. There will be no spiritual identity of the follower if he is separated from the spiritual discipline he follows. If I follow bhakti marg , you can not call me a jnani. You have to call me a bhkata. This fact is cleared when sri Krishna says that to follow avyaktam aksharam is difficult task. Here the follower is not difficult rather the path is difficult. In a dubious way you have explained that sagun Brahman worshiper who has such and such qualities is the best yogi. You have consciously ignored the path which is followed by the best yogi. He is the best yogi because he follows sagun sakar sri Krishna. It is the path i.e. Bhakti marg that has taught him to worship sagun sakar sri Krishna. If this is not true then why do you not identify yourself with bhakti marg ? if you have the honesty, keep your hand in your chest and tell that you have distorted meaning of the verses. It is only the path which brings the follower to the destination. Comparison is between bhakta and jnani corresponding to bhakti marg and jnan marg and it is clear in verse 5/12. I do not understand why you are in the business of making people ‘ Buddhu’ by distorting meaning of the verses.

    You bring comparison between engineering and medical. For bhakta and jnani ,the goal is same which is fixed. Sri Krishna says follower of sagun sakar reaches ME and the follower of nirgun nirakar also reaches ME.So the question is which is the best way to reach HIM i.e. the goal . Tell me which common point or goal is fixed for engineer and doctor that you are comparing between them ? why are you making people fool ?

    You say bhakta sees unreal krishna veiled under maya projected with form and name. How do you know that ? you have to become bhakta to realize whether bhakta sees real Krishna or unreal Krishna. You always teach people not to deliver lecture about physics being not the expert on subject and here you yourself doing the mistake ?

    To you sagun sakar sri Krishna is unreal and nirgun nirakar sri krihsa is only real. This is the paap commited by advaita sadhak. How do you address by name sri Krishna to an formless identity ? without form where do you get the name ? if Krishna is unreal then Mahabharat is unreal , Gita is unreal, activities or lila of sri Krishna in vrindavan or in Mathura are also unreal. What is the meaning of the verses 7-8 of jnan yoga chapter 4 of BG where sri Krishna says “yada yada hi dharmashya glanir bhavati bharat abhyutthanam adharmashya tada’tmanam srijamy aham” or “ ----- sambhavani yuge yuge”. If he incarnates himself, will he become unreal ? Do you believe in the concept of avatara or incarnation of Brahman ? Are these verses also invalid ? This is what advaita jnan is all about. The jnan yogi in BG is supposed to know HIS ( sri Krishna) divine birth and activities in their true nature as said in verse 9 of this chapter of jnan yoga. The jnani in the BG is supposed to take refuge in HIM that is sagun sakar sri Krishna as in verse 10 of this chapter of jnan yoga. if you follow instruction of sri krishna you have to take refuge in HIM or sagun sri krishna. will you follow sri krishna ? Refuge can not be taken in undefinable, changeless, unthinkable, immovable nirgun nirakar Brahman ? is it possible ?The jnani which BG referes to is not same as jnani of advaita sadhana. projection or reflection requires physical appearance of object. Maya is the machine for projection but where is the material to be projected. can undefinable Brahman be projected into definable sri Krishna by maya ? . I said you earlier if sankarichariya had not seen snake and rope in his physical eyes, he could not have created your most favoured rope snake analogy. May be he could have said his danda and something else which he always had with him. Tell me why should one see snake in rope why not cow or tiger ? don’t forget that projection has limitation. Anything can not be projected out of nothing. Maya is not independent to project , then who is giving order maya to project ? what is the need and purpose behind this projection ? Is nirgun nirakar Brahman supposed to do anything like ordering maya or can an unreal entity like sagun Brahman command and control maya ? According to you Maya ,which is neither real nor un real is controlled by another un real sagun Brahman. But the source of these un-reals is real i.e. nirgun Brahman. This is peculiar situation. On the one hand you do not accept sagun Brahman as real and on the other hand you invoke him, you chant his name, you offer puja to his image knowing very well that he does not exist at all. Where from nam rupa comes without his real existence ? The entity which does not exist at all or unreal, how can that entity help you to achieve your goal. Is it not the imaginative philosophy ? The moment you say that you are to move beyond sagun Brahman , that means getting sagun brahman is not sufficient or is not reaching the goal, or the goal is still ahead which indicates that sagun Brahman is not at par with nirgun Brahman, you are making discrimination between sagun Brahman and nirgun Brahman which is totally in contradiction of hindu sanatan dharma philosophy.

    According to sanatan hindu dharma philosophy, the ultimate personality is purushottam who is both sagun sakar and nirgun nirakar as depicted in purushottam yoga of BG. How can one aspect of Brahman be different from another aspect ? you also acknowledge that sleeping japamala and awake japamala is not different from each other but you are making a difference between sagun sakar and nirgun nirakar Brahman . sri Krishna only says that to reach this purushottam, the path with sagun sakar aspect or nam rupa sri Krishna is easier than reaching through nirgun nirakar aspect. This is the simple meaning of the verses 1 to 5 of chapter 12 of BG. Why are you confusing the simple meaning by passing various unnecessary comments ? I think this act of creating confusion by distorting simple meaning of scriptures and introducing unnecessary imaginary arguments is in the DNA of advaita sadhaka.. I do not find any difference between getting whole of sri Krishna and resing in sri Krishna and I think nobody having a very little knowledge of scriptures will find any difference.Lets have a survey among the viwers of HDF .I think the question of getting whole of sri Krishna for a jnani sadhak does not arise since a jnani is himself sri Krishn ! The jnani in BG is supposed to reach sri Krishna but the advaitic jnani need not go to sri Krishna . you yourself is sri Krishna. Where will you go ? I am as bhakta supposed to get him and I shall be lucky enough if I get a bit bit bit bit bit part of HIM. no need for whole of krishna. The satatement like “Nirgun Brahman is real Krishna and sagun Brahman is unreal Krishna” only serve the purpose of confusing common believer of sanatan dharma. The jnani who believes in “One aspect of same Brahman is real and another aspect is unreal” has no place in bhagavad gita. This is the difference between jnani of advaita sadhana and that of Bhagavad Gita.

    How do you claim that you follow lord krishna’s instruction when you do not believe at the very existence of sri Krishna. According to you there is no sri Krishna . what you know as sri Krishna is a mere projection by maya. How can a projected or perceived personality deliver instruction for you ? Is it not hypocracy ?

    I am thankful to sri Krishna that HE does not wish me to follow the difficult path .

    The word ‘ Brahman’ always refers to the nirgun nirakar Brahman in our scriptures. BG does mean nirgun nirakar Brahman when it says “ Brahman is both sat and asat” and it is confirmed from verse 12/13. If you want to refer this to the sagun Brahman, that will be futile for you since you have to accept sagun Brahman as sat or real. So you are wrong.

    Your philosophy is based on vivartavada which Gita does not support. Gita supports Parinamvada. This is the basic difference between you and me. "Maya in action and maya at rest" is a new concept to me. I have not heard it before. if maya is consist of three gunas of satta raja tama, then can these three gunas be at rest at any given time ?. The resting state of satta raja tama means destruction of creation. creation means the three gunas are in action. what philosophy you are trying to establish by such statement. I am keen to know much about this " maya in action and maya at rest" from you. earlier you said sagun brahman = nirgun brahman + maya and nirgun brahman = sagun brahman - maya. now you are saying nirgun brahman = brahman with maya at rest that means there is maya with brahman in nirgun state also. please do some favour to me by explaining from scriptures how maya can be at rest " and how maya can be with brahman even in nirgun state also ?

    For a fruitful discussion we have to be honest in explaining the meaning of verses. BG consists of all the views of sanatan hindu dharma in the form of karma jnan dhyan and bhakti. No other scriptures is so complete as BG is. It has reconciled the differences of philosophies in a harmonious manner. Therefore BG is the essence of all Upanishad and regarded as Upanishad also. At the end of every chapter we find “ srimadbhagavadgitasupanishatsu brahmavidyayam yogashashre”.
    Last edited by jopmala; 04 September 2015 at 01:25 PM.

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste Japmala,

    Quote Originally Posted by jopmala View Post
    I just laughed at your imaginative explanation of the verses of BG which is seen or read nowhere in this world. I am challenging you if you can show me one name of any commentator on BG verses who explained verses 1-5 of chap 12 in conformity with you. Every commentator of BG irrespective of his spiritual alignment be it from ancient or modern period has explained these verses in the same way that everyone follow but yours is only one that is followed by you only.
    I am very much clear on ‘path’ and ‘follower of path’. You can not distort the meaning to suit your liking or disliking. You believe that the question asked by arjune is invalid. Someday you will say that Bhagavad Gita is invalid and only uttar gita is to be followed. What are you trying to establish here ? Has sri krishna in verse 5/12 referred to the follower or the path ? The jnani is difficult or the path of jnan marg is difficult ? the comparison is clear between those who follow sagun sakar Brahman and those who not. The path is determined accordingly. Sri krishna says , “those who worship ME” . and “those who worship avyaktam aksharam “. Now I want to ask you which path is associated with ME or nam rupa sagun sakar sri Krishna and which path is associated with avyaktam aksharam or nirugn nirakar Brahman ? you identify yourself as jnani because you are following the path of jnan. There will be no spiritual identity of the follower if he is separated from the spiritual discipline he follows. If I follow bhakti marg , you can not call me a jnani. You have to call me a bhkata. This fact is cleared when sri Krishna says that to follow avyaktam aksharam is difficult task. Here the follower is not difficult rather the path is difficult. In a dubious way you have explained that sagun Brahman worshiper who has such and such qualities is the best yogi. You have consciously ignored the path which is followed by the best yogi. He is the best yogi because he follows sagun sakar sri Krishna. It is the path i.e. Bhakti marg that has taught him to worship sagun sakar sri Krishna. If this is not true then why do you not identify yourself with bhakti marg ? if you have the honesty, keep your hand in your chest and tell that you have distorted meaning of the verses. It is only the path which brings the follower to the destination. Comparison is between bhakta and jnani corresponding to bhakti marg and jnan marg and it is clear in verse 5/12. I do not understand why you are in the business of making people ‘ Buddhu’ by distorting meaning of the verses.
    Now, you have gown down to "Jalpa" only and nothing else. What is this ? Show me if I have translated anything wrong ? You are challenging me and accusing me of distortion of meaning of the verses ? You can look within yourself and look at what you have written so far. It is all your own fabrication. It is you who wants to add "too" in the verses when it is nowhere. It is you who is inserying the word "Path" in the meaning when it is nowhere. It is you who wants to show superiority of worshiping of Saguna Brhaman over worshiping of Nrguan Brahman. My dear sir, you go the best of Sanskrit scholars and let him prove that what I have translated and stated is wrong as per the verses. If you can find even one such unbiased scholar (please don't bring a scholar who is biased as you are), I will accept whatever you say and will become your follower.

    I have shown to you how you are adding words into what Lord Krishna said and how you are distorting the meaning of the verses. You show me if I have used any extraneous word with what Lord Krishna has said. You are charging me for distorting the meaning of the verses ??? This is shocking !!

    You bring comparison between engineering and medical. For bhakta and jnani ,the goal is same which is fixed. Sri Krishna says follower of sagun sakar reaches ME and the follower of nirgun nirakar also reaches ME.So the question is which is the best way to reach HIM i.e. the goal . Tell me which common point or goal is fixed for engineer and doctor that you are comparing between them ? why are you making people fool ?
    I am only trying to show you the exact meaning of the verses. In your arrogance or desperation, you are talking in this manner (making people fool ???). It has no meaning at all.

    You say bhakta sees unreal krishna veiled under maya projected with form and name. How do you know that ? you have to become bhakta to realize whether bhakta sees real Krishna or unreal Krishna. You always teach people not to deliver lecture about physics being not the expert on subject and here you yourself doing the mistake ?
    This is a valid question and I must reply that. However, I will do that only when you calm down and stop your Jalpa and bad mouthing. ... and it is all your ignorance that you call my saying Krishna's form as unreal Krishna as "Paap". You have got entangled into mesh of your own mental creation. I am a devotee of Krishna and I am a better devotee of Krishna than you are. It is not arrogance but statement of fact as Lord Krishna has accorded JnAni the highest status in Bhagwad Gita.

    To you sagun sakar sri Krishna is unreal and nirgun nirakar sri krihsa is only real. This is the paap commited by advaita sadhak. How do you address by name sri Krishna to an formless identity ? without form where do you get the name ? if Krishna is unreal then Mahabharat is unreal , Gita is unreal, activities or lila of sri Krishna in vrindavan or in Mathura are also unreal. What is the meaning of the verses 7-8 of jnan yoga chapter 4 of BG where sri Krishna says “yada yada hi dharmashya glanir bhavati bharat abhyutthanam adharmashya tada’tmanam srijamy aham” or “ ----- sambhavani yuge yuge”. If he incarnates himself, will he become unreal ? Do you believe in the concept of avatara or incarnation of Brahman ? Are these verses also invalid ? This is what advaita jnan is all about. The jnan yogi in BG is supposed to know HIS ( sri Krishna) divine birth and activities in their true nature as said in verse 9 of this chapter of jnan yoga. The jnani in the BG is supposed to take refuge in HIM that is sagun sakar sri Krishna as in verse 10 of this chapter of jnan yoga. if you follow instruction of sri krishna you have to take refuge in HIM or sagun sri krishna. will you follow sri krishna ? Refuge can not be taken in undefinable, changeless, unthinkable, immovable nirgun nirakar Brahman ? is it possible ?The jnani which BG referes to is not same as jnani of advaita sadhana. projection or reflection requires physical appearance of object. Maya is the machine for projection but where is the material to be projected. can undefinable Brahman be projected into definable sri Krishna by maya ? . I said you earlier if sankarichariya had not seen snake and rope in his physical eyes, he could not have created your most favoured rope snake analogy. May be he could have said his danda and something else which he always had with him. Tell me why should one see snake in rope why not cow or tiger ? don’t forget that projection has limitation. Anything can not be projected out of nothing. Maya is not independent to project , then who is giving order maya to project ? what is the need and purpose behind this projection ? Is nirgun nirakar Brahman supposed to do anything like ordering maya or can an unreal entity like sagun Brahman command and control maya ? According to you Maya ,which is neither real nor un real is controlled by another un real sagun Brahman. But the source of these un-reals is real i.e. nirgun Brahman. This is peculiar situation. On the one hand you do not accept sagun Brahman as real and on the other hand you invoke him, you chant his name, you offer puja to his image knowing very well that he does not exist at all. Where from nam rupa comes without his real existence ? The entity which does not exist at all or unreal, how can that entity help you to achieve your goal. Is it not the imaginative philosophy ? The moment you say that you are to move beyond sagun Brahman , that means getting sagun brahman is not sufficient or is not reaching the goal, or the goal is still ahead which indicates that sagun Brahman is not at par with nirgun Brahman, you are making discrimination between sagun Brahman and nirgun Brahman which is totally in contradiction of hindu sanatan dharma philosophy.
    It is 99 % Jalpa. As far as questions on Nirguna Brahman, Saguna Brahman and that Saguna Krishna is only one aspect of Krishna will be taken by me when you stop this diatribe and jalpa against me and the Advaitins. Please don't try to become the spokesperson of Sanatan Dharma as a whole. You are not that.

    According to sanatan hindu dharma philosophy, the ultimate personality is purushottam who is both sagun sakar and nirgun nirakar as depicted in purushottam yoga of BG. How can one aspect of Brahman be different from another aspect ? you also acknowledge that sleeping japamala and awake japamala is not different from each other but you are making a difference between sagun sakar and nirgun nirakar Brahman . sri Krishna only says that to reach this purushottam, the path with sagun sakar aspect or nam rupa sri Krishna is easier than reaching through nirgun nirakar aspect. This is the simple meaning of the verses 1 to 5 of chapter 12 of BG. Why are you confusing the simple meaning by passing various unnecessary comments ? I think this act of creating confusion by distorting simple meaning of scriptures and introducing unnecessary imaginary arguments is in the DNA of advaita sadhaka.. I do not find any difference between getting whole of sri Krishna and resing in sri Krishna and I think nobody having a very little knowledge of scriptures will find any difference.Lets have a survey among the viwers of HDF .I think the question of getting whole of sri Krishna for a jnani sadhak does not arise since a jnani is himself sri Krishn ! The jnani in BG is supposed to reach sri Krishna but the advaitic jnani need not go to sri Krishna . you yourself is sri Krishna. Where will you go ? I am as bhakta supposed to get him and I shall be lucky enough if I get a bit bit bit bit bit part of HIM. no need for whole of krishna. The satatement like “Nirgun Brahman is real Krishna and sagun Brahman is unreal Krishna” only serve the purpose of confusing common believer of sanatan dharma. The jnani who believes in “One aspect of same Brahman is real and another aspect is unreal” has no place in bhagavad gita. This is the difference between jnani of advaita sadhana and that of Bhagavad Gita.
    Again the words and language used by you against me and Advaitins above is not civil at all. It is all "japla" you are writing. Please stop it. It doesn't lead us to anywhere.

    Please consult the best translator on this earth and if he translates the verses 2-5 of Chapter 12 in Bhagwad Gita in a manner other than what I have done, I will accept your version without delaying even for a second. What else do you want ? I have given you meaning of the verses word-by-word exactly as Lord Krishna has said. Should I add, "too" where it is not, should I add, "superior path/ Inferior path" where it is not to translate it better ? What do you mean by a translation ? Should it be just as have been stated or mixed with spices as per your taste buds ?

    How do you claim that you follow lord krishna’s instruction when you do not believe at the very existence of sri Krishna. According to you there is no sri Krishna . what you know as sri Krishna is a mere projection by maya. How can a projected or perceived personality deliver instruction for you ? Is it not hypocracy ?
    I can prove that only JnAna yogis follow to the maximum what Lord Krishna says. The so-called arrogant Bhaktas like you who have no other work but to indulge in ceaseless activity to denigrate JnAn yoga hardly follow what Lord Krishna says. I still stick to my version that Krishna with form and name is not the Real Krishna. It is Brahman associated with MAyA and therefore it is not Real. Form and name are nothing but creation of MAyA.

    I am thankful to sri Krishna that HE does not wish me to follow the difficult path .
    "Difficult" and "easy" are relative terms. What is difficult for you, looks quite easy for me. Your capability and my capability are not the same ! It is as simple as that. .... and please don't blame Lord Krishna for choosing your path. You have chosen your path yourself. Remember Lortd Krishna's words, "Na Kartritvam, na KarmAni lokasya srijati prabhuh" i.e God doesn't create the doership of the action or the actions .... it is Nature (your nature in this case) that works.

    The word ‘ Brahman’ always refers to the nirgun nirakar Brahman in our scriptures. BG does mean nirgun nirakar Brahman when it says “ Brahman is both sat and asat” and it is confirmed from verse 12/13. If you want to refer this to the sagun Brahman, that will be futile for you since you have to accept sagun Brahman as sat or real. So you are wrong.
    Please quote the verses and translate them word-by-word and don't add your own words into them. Then we will see who is right and who is wrong. The verse says, "AnAdi matparam Brahman na sat na asat uchyate" ===> That beginingless Brahman which is my Ultimate/Supreme (state) is called neither Sat nor Asat".

    Your philosophy is based on vivartavada which Gita does not support. Gita supports Parinamvada. This is the basic difference between you and me. "Maya in action and maya at rest" is a new concept to me. I have not heard it before. if maya is consist of three gunas of satta raja tama, then can these three gunas be at rest at any given time ?. The resting state of satta raja tama means destruction of creation. creation means the three gunas are in action. what philosophy you are trying to establish by such statement. I am keen to know much about this " maya in action and maya at rest" from you. earlier you said sagun brahman = nirgun brahman + maya and nirgun brahman = sagun brahman - maya. now you are saying nirgun brahman = brahman with maya at rest that means there is maya with brahman in nirgun state also. please do some favour to me by explaining from scriptures how maya can be at rest " and how maya can be with brahman even in nirgun state also ?
    Yes, our philosophy is based on Vivartavaad. But how do you say that Bhagwad Gita supports Parinaamvaad ? Can you quote Bhagwad Gita verses to support your claim ? There is no verse in Bhagwad Gita which supports parinaamvaad. He doesn't touch this subject at all.

    For a fruitful discussion we have to be honest in explaining the meaning of verses. BG consists of all the views of sanatan hindu dharma in the form of karma jnan dhyan and bhakti. No other scriptures is so complete as BG is. It has reconciled the differences of philosophies in a harmonious manner. Therefore BG is the essence of all Upanishad and regarded as Upanishad also. At the end of every chapter we find “ srimadbhagavadgitasupanishatsu brahmavidyayam yogashashre”.
    Show me even one place where I have been dishonest. I would have been dishonest if I had translated anything wrongly. I have translated the verses word-by-word exactly as Lord Krishna has said. I have not added any spices as you have done. Is it being dishonest ? You are reading "Path" when it is no where in the verses. You are reading "too" when it is nowhere written in the verses. Who is cheating here ? You or me ? Just because I have shown you that Lord Krishna nowhere said what you are saying, I become a dishonest person ? Instead of saying so much, why don't you translate the verses word-by-word yourself and see if Lord Krishna says differently than what I have said.

    You are using denigrating language against me and all Advaitins. You have also said that we are committing "sin" against God i.e. we are sinners. Does it not show that you are not talking sense ?

    _____________________________________

    I urge you to stop such diatribe against me and the Advaitins. If you are interested in doing that only please do it in Jalpa folder and I won't respond at all. If you had allowed me, I could have showed you these :

    a) Why I said that "Saguna Bhaktas don't see the Real Krishna" ? I can give you proof from Bhagwad Gita itself. Lord Krishna Himself says that He incarnates accepting the MAyA to act upon Him
    b) Why I said that "so-called bhakti path that you follow has very little support in Bhagwad Gita". It is the Advaitins who follow Bhagwad Gita as taught by Lord Krishna to the maximum. Write down whatever you do and try to find out if the same has been prescribed by Lord Krishna anywhere in BG. Does Lord Krishna ask anywhere to act us as His slaves ?
    c) I wanted to tell you the difference between Kapila's SAmkhya and SAmkhya as stated / described / referred to in BG. Unfortunately you have not read any SAmkhya scriptures.
    d) I could also show you that JnAn yoga as followed by us and as stated in Bhagwad Gita are not different at all. In your arrogance, you have been in habit of denigrating Lord Krishna's best of BhaktAs i.e. the JnAnis. May God forgive you for that !
    e) I could have removed your confusion over Saguna Brahman/Nirguna Brahman and what MAyA is.

    ... But it doesn't seem that you are interested in a healthy discussion at all ! So, be happy in your arrogance and in the action of denigrating me and all Advaitins. Perhaps, this is what you called as "Krishna Bhakti" ! Let is be so ... how does it matter ?? I am sorry that I entered into this discussion. I will now stay away from this thread and anything you write on this forum.

    Jai Shri Krishna ! A very happy JanmAshTami to you !

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 04 September 2015 at 07:52 PM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste devotee

    It is not arrogance. it is assertion of belief with confidence. you can not escape so easily. I will not let you go. I shall be waiting for every points you have noted below in your latest post. Also I will be waiting to hear from you about maya in action and maya at rest concept which is new to me and may be some members of HDF . then another point that is difference between whole of krishna and residing in krishna. I shall be waiting eagerly to hear all (a) to (e) noted by you. I have referred to verse 5/12 to ascertain the path aspect in verses 1-4 but you have not responded to. you can see the translation of Gita press Gorakhpur and even advaita believer like ramkrishna math . In no interpretation I have seen of whole of sri krishna or like that. if you can give me any name who translated in you line I will be obliged. I have surveyed many sites even many advaita blogs also and found no translation of your kind of these verses of BG. Therefore regarding our interpretation of the verses of chapter 12 of BG, I will suggest to let the viwers of HDF decide who is interpreting the verses correctly and putting an end to these verse,we may go ahead with other issues.

    I find it nothing wrong when we put arguments in favour of our own respective belief. if you follow BG, you should not wait for a fruitful result out of our discussion. I think if discussion is continued . it will definitely yield to some result for someone in someway. now ball is in your court.
    Last edited by jopmala; 04 September 2015 at 11:00 PM.

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    namaste devotee

    I am sorry to say that I have quoted verse 12/13 wrongly. you have said correct that it should be brahman is neither sat nor asat. Maya is also defined as neither sat nor asat by advita philosophy. I am confused if brahman and maya is same.

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