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Thread: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

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    BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste to all

    Bhagavat Gita depicts the brahma in clear and distinct narration. According to Verse 13 of BG chap XIII ( may be 14 in some Gita) “Everywhere are his hands and feet. His eyes, heads and faces are on all sides and everywhere are his ears. He remains encompassing all”. Again verse 14 ( may be 15 ) says that he is devoid of all sense organs but still he seems to have functions of the senses. “ sarvendriya gunabhasam sarvendriya vivarjitam”. This is how brahma described in the Gita. The same verses can be seen in Svetasvarupanishad chapter 3 mantra 3 ,16 and 17. More significantly, mantra 19 says that “without hands and feet he goes fast and grasps, without eyes he sees , without ears he hears . he knows whatever is to be known but no one knows him. The wise calls him the foremost the great”. Therefore here it is quite clear that ultimate brahma is not actionless , motionless or peaceful etc etc as depicted by some school of thought.

    Here the verses from chaitanya charitamprita Madhya Lila sixth chapter that is the discussion of Mahaprabhu with sarbovom pandit have very much relevance. Mahaprabhu says to pandit in CC that the word “ Brahman” signifies purna swayam bhagavan full with all opulences. Mahaprabhu says that before the creation there were no mundane eyes or mind; therefore the transcendental nature of Brahma’s mind and eyes is confirmed. Mahaprabhu continued to mention that Sruti states that brahma can go very fast and accepts anything offered to him confirming that brahma has hands and legs which are not prakrit or material. Therefore according to sruti brahma is savishesh and sakar.having three primary potencies.

    But some school of thought has changed the meaning of sruti and described brahma as nirakar and nirvishes with no potencies.Here it will not be out of context to mention why sri Krishna makes a clear distinction between him and imperishable unmanifested brahma in BG chapter 12 verse 1. He says in verse 5 of the same chapter that the goal of the unmanifested is difficult to attain by the embodied souls. Those who describe this creation is nothing but a dream or illusion or super imposition, to them only the ultimate brahma is without potencies without qualities having no form etc etc but swetaswar Upanishad mantra 16 of chapter 6 clearly states that brahma is the creator of everything and knower of everything. He is his own source he is all knowing and he is the destroyer of time. He has all the qualities. He is the pradhan kshetragnapati that is the controller of prakriti and jivatma. He is the cause of liberation from the cycle of birth and death. Same thing described in BG also.

    Yes there is super imposition but that super imposition is on line of thinking. The cloud of imaginary or indirect illustration of Vedanta is a kind of super imposition on the real and direct meaning of the mantras. The imaginary line of thinking states that maya is power of nirguna brahma but maya is beginningless although maya does have an end. Having an inherent power “maya” brahma is described as nirguna nirvishesh.Mays is dependent on brahma. When Nirgun brahma comes in contact with maya , sagun brahm is formed that means sagun brahma is product of maya and nirgun brahma. This product now becomes controller of maya. Maya does not govern Sagun brahma instead sagun brahma governs maya though it is product of maya This sagun brahma is also not a absolute reality thus it does have an end also. Maya is insentient and can not act of its own. Being a power of nirgun brahma maya is dependent on brahma still maya can project. The universe is an illusion created by maya though maya is not independent for action. Maya is said to be inherent in brahma. power can not be separated from powerful still there is argument that when nirgun brahma comes to acquiesce maya and acknowledges the gunas of maya it is known as sagun brahma or iswara. That means sri Krishna Ram etc all these personalities are iswara have formed out of maya. If maya is a unique power of nirguna brahma and maya is inherent in nirgun brahma then how can brahma be nirgun. Can nirgun brahma have a wish to be separated itself from maya ? such misinterpretation leads to misunderstanding which is imposed forcibly. If jiva is brahma , creation is illusion why not maya also brahma since there is nothing except brahma. Though maya is ineherent in nirgun brahma but in turiya there is no maya with brahma . It said “The whole universe including sagun iswara maya is an apparent reality that has no more – and no less – substance than a dream. It is all an optical illusion – which does not mean that it does not exist, but only that it is not real, for its existence depends upon awareness – effected by the inexplicable power of ignorance, a misapprehension that is the uncaused effect of Maya.” But this mesmerizing power of maya is not its own but of brahma on whom maya is dependent. Maya is said to be unique power of nirgun brahma but it is described as neither real nor unreal , illusory , projector, power of veiling true etc etc Only confusion nothing else.

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste to all

    The advaitic school of thought has the view that only brahma is sat or real and maya is neither real nor unreal etc etc but verses from swetaswar Upanishad and Bhagavat Gita say some thing else. Swetaswar Upanishad chap 4 mantra 18 says about brahma that when there is complete absence of darkness of ignorance then what is experienced is neither existence nor non existence. In BG verse 12 of chap XIII sri Krishna says “ now I will describe what one should know and knowing which one will attain to life eternal. It is Brahma ,My attributeless aspect and said to be neither existent nor non existent

    Therefore maya as depicted from advaitic pov does not match what BG says. The point to be noted is that if maya is power of brahma , the only real, how can his power be neither real nor unreal when it is emanating from himself alone. Advaitic view of maya is veiling , deceptive, mystery ,illusion , ignorance etc etc. why not these terms be attached with brahma since the power does not act on its own. It is powerful , the owner of the power on whose will the act of delusion illusion cancelation projection reflection super imposition etc (if at all there) , takes place. So the accountability lies not with maya but with brahma itself.
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 16 July 2015 at 06:50 AM.

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste,

    But some school of thought has changed the meaning of sruti and described brahma as nirakar and nirvishes with no potencies
    Why to jump to immediate conclusions with our imperfect senses ? Purana-s mentions the purport of Shruti perfectly. So if Purana-s state Brahman is Nirvishesh, then we'd accept that.

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste

    The advaitic thought has defined two brahm i.e. Nirguna and Saguna but at the same time it says saguna brahma is not different from nirguna brahma. According to Advaita theory :

    Nirguna brahma is the absolute reality whereas saguna brahma is not absolute reality . it is empirical or vyavaharika reality.

    Nirguna brahma is beyond maya . it is in turiya state where there is no maya but saguna brahma is the product of maya that is it says saguna brahma = nirguna brahma + maya

    Nirguna brahma is the only final destination and saguna brahma or iswara is not the final destination. They say sagun brahma or Ishvara is eternal, but at the same time he is to be explained or understood in relation to something

    Saguna brahma or iswara is the lord of illusory world .Both sagun brahma and its creation the world is in the vyavaharika level of truth i.e. not ultimate truth. In other words there is no creation and there is no lordship also. The saguna brahma is all pervasive but tragedy is all his power, glories etc are in vyavaharika truth which is equal to dream or unreal.

    This is how advaitic school of thought makes brahma mayeek and talking of all the differences between two brahma but still advocates that saguna brahma is not different from nirguna brahma

    According to advaita philosophy the speaker of Bhagavad Gita i.e. Sri Krishna is sagun brahma or iswara and we find in every chapter of Gita there is “I” , “ ME” “ MY” which clearly identify with Sri Krishna only. In the Gita which is one of the basic literatures which speaks of brahma no where any such equation which says Iswara or saguna brahma = Nirguna brahma + maya is found. The theory that states saguna brahma is the product of maya and at the same time asserts that it is the controller of maya seems quite unreasonable given by so called the most reasonable philosophy. Firstly , Nirguna brahma can not have any kind of interaction with maya at any level of truth to become saguna since he is not qualified at all to do so. Secondly, by going with simple reasoning a by-product should not have command and control over its originating source. Thirdly, if at all the whole creation is a mental projection an illusion by maya, what is the utility of becoming saguna from nirguna only to super impose, project the unreal to be real ? This kind of dhokebazi can not be expected from brahma. What purpose is served by becoming all powerful, all pervasive etc etc in a dream world or in an illusory world or in a projected world.

    Bhagavat Gita chapter XIII verses 12 to 17 clearly states the essential nature of brahma . verse 4 and 12 of chap-VII clearly state that maya or triguna or prakriti originates from him not he originates with the help of maya. He says “ mama maya”. Here mama means saguna brahma sri Krishna.

    Verse 7 chap VII says “ there is nothing whatever that excels me”. Verse 8 “ I am the taste in water I am the light in moon and the sun” In chap IX sri Krishna tells supreme secret holiest of all. Here verse 10 says It is under my lead that prakriti brings forth all things both animate and inanimate” verse 13 “ the great soul knows me to be the prime cause of all beings and imperishable as well”. Verse 17 “ I am the father of this world, the mother and the sustainer and the grandsire”. Verse 19 “ I am the cosmos revealed and unmanifested”. Therefore, when the whole world is coming from the ultimate reality , where is the chance to identifying the world with dream or super imposition etc etc. Actually since saguna brahma himself is not ultimate real to the advaitin , so the world created by him also unreal dream etc Nirgun Brahman is indescribable, indivisible, undivided, peaceful, immutable, infinite, unthinkable for which devotee can not connect with him and which is why sri Krishna tells in verse 5 of chap XII of BG that those who set their thoughts on unmanifested have to face a harder task. He further says that those devotee who worship the unmanifest, the undefinable,the changeless, the omnipresent, constant, eternal , unthinkable immoveable brahma, they also attain to ME. Since the goal is same therefore sri Krishna is advocating the easiest way to reach the goal i.e. saguna sakar savishesh brahma through bhakti marg.
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 18 July 2015 at 08:09 AM. Reason: font size

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste Japmala,

    So, you are more learned than Adi Guru Shankaracharya, Gaudapad, Ashtavakra and all other Advaitic Gurus ?

    Nice to meet you, sir !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste,

    No need to debate. Those who want to focus on a Nirvishesh tattva (attributeless existence principal) - Let them be. Those who want KrshNa-prem - let them be. Think Vishwa-rUpa -- the Universal form of BhagavAn i.e. Bramhan'. Can we compartmentalize Bramhan' as either NirguN or SaguN? or divide Bramhan into categories NirguN Versus Sagun ?

    Please see the pictures/diagrams in this post :
    http://walkwithmukunda.blogspot.com/...existence.html

    Can we argue about non-existence of either of the above pictures? Where the various dimensions of existence are seen with
    a) KRshNa Prem pervading all dimensions and
    b) colourless Nirvishesh Tattva (attributeless principle of existence) pervading all dimensions

    Both are nirguNa. Can we argue against either as being the "final" truth? What is final for one is not so for another.
    KRshNa has given Vishwa-Rupa Darshan. This is not a spatial darshan but a darshan of the Divine containing all dimensions of existence and is beyond limits of space and time.
    Those who say nirvishesh is ultimate -- that is their perspective, and choice of existence.

    The truth is -- those in the colourless dimension also have to exist in 'a' dimension of colour somewhere, in time.
    e.g. a Siddha in the siddha-loka of tapoloka lives in that (saffron) dimension, but some of these may hold the consciousness or conviction of the colourless nirvishesha.
    The same siddhas will, at other times, simply engaged in glorifying the beautiful Brahman -- svasti svasti.


    So we just pick our choice and continue.

    The first picture depicts the dimensions of existence low to high -- the smallest circle showing the low dimension (atala vitala sutala talatala patala : brown lt gray dk gray black) and the outer circles showing higher dimensions of existence ( bhu i.e. mRtyu-lok (physical bodies) , bhuva - antariksha - astral dim, swarga dim, mahar, jana, tapa (siddha dim), satya/bramha-lok, and beyond Devi (prakruti) dham ...

    What is important is that we are in the dark-green mRtyu-loka dimension which has to be transcended.
    Last edited by smaranam; 18 July 2015 at 01:33 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste smaranamji

    I agree with you that choice to follow the path is ours own . But Debate has taken place at all ages through out the history of sanatan dharma. you should allow to debate or to present facts as per our sanatan tradition. A healthy discussion is also required to refresh our thought process.
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 19 July 2015 at 06:51 AM.

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste devotee

    You have every right to make fun of me and my post. But I shall continue to present the facts. These facts are not based on imagination.

    BG does not approve of one aspect of brahma (nirgun) is ultimate truth but its another aspect (saguna) is not .

    BG does not approve of maya as the power of brahma. In BG Sri Krishna says maya is my apara prakriti.

    BG does not approve that saguna brahma is the product of nirguna brahma and maya . In BG sri Krishna says the trigunas satta raja and tamas are emanating from me.

    If maya is a power of brahma so when brahma is in turiya state , what is the state of maya .

    BG does not approve of different level of truth like prativashika , vyavaharika and parmarthika Truth is one and only

    BG does not approve of maya to be creator. According to BG maya is insentient or jada prakriti . It can not creat on its own.

    BG does not approve of world being a illusion or super imposition or projection of unreal to be real. In BG sri Krishna says that prakriti is my womb. On that I cast my seed. ( verse 3 of XIV). I am the father mother and even grandsire of this universe. Therefore question of universe being a super imposition or illusion or dream by maya does not arise at all.

    BG does not represent maya as veiling, concealing ,illusionary ,deceiving ,mysterious . BG only says that “ mama maya duratwaya”, difficult to overcome.

    BG does not approve that only nirguna brahma is the goal. In BG sagun sakar sri Krishna says that “ there is nothing whatever that excels me”

    BG does approve that the worshipers of sagun sakar savishesh brahma are the highest among the devotees( verse 2 of XII).

    BG does approve that worshiping the nirgun nirakar nirvishes brahma is difficult for jiva .

    we should or we must follow what sri Krishna advised Arjuna in BG

    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 19 July 2015 at 06:52 AM.

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste JM,

    we should or we must follow what sri Krishna advised Arjuna in BG
    Exactly ! But is it what you are doing ? I find you all the time spending in bashing up Advaitic philosophy and ridiculing what they say. Did Lord Krishna ask you or Arjuna to indulge in such activities ?

    Why are you not in peace ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: BRAHMA IN BHAGAVAT GITA

    Namaste devotee

    I am not bashing up advaitic philosophy. I am just sharing the fact that the philosophy which is claimed to have based on Bhagavat Gita does not have the approval of the Gita. thats all.

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