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Thread: What did Sankara mean?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    For Sanakara, Duty of grihasta having intercourse is essentially for progeny. I do agree kama is one of the four purushaartha. All gurus, including Sanakara, Shrimad Ramanuja, Shri Madhvacharya, Shri Vallabha, I can say almost all except tantri gurus, never viewed sex as devotion. As this thread is not about tantri, this view is not tenable in this thread
    What is the basis of such statement? I strongly doubt that these acharyas rejected sex as a means to making wife happy and enjoy oneself — this is not contrary to Vedas, Upanishads, Gita and Smriti.

    Of course, sex as a part of upasana is a Tantric view. But it exists in Pancharatra tradition, that much i know. Thus, Ramanuja must have been aware of such practice, though it is esoteric one of course and not opened to public.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    What is the basis of such statement? I strongly doubt that these acharyas rejected sex as a means to making wife happy and enjoy oneself — this is not contrary to Vedas, Upanishads, Gita and Smriti.

    Of course, sex as a part of upasana is a Tantric view. But it exists in Pancharatra tradition, that much i know. Thus, Ramanuja must have been aware of such practice, though it is esoteric one of course and not opened to public.
    Ever read Moha mutkaram of Shri Sankaracharya? If so, you would not be raising such doubts. All acharyas viewed sex as petty enjoyment and viewed self awarness as greater bliss and one should move towards greater bliss.

    I am not saying they asked every one to abstain from sex. They adviced to limit to progeny. Sublime analogy I can provide - Most of the achryas, as you can see from their biographies, had limited themselves in having number of children - Sankara and Shrimad Ramanuja had none

    Further where does veda, upanishad and gita asks you to enjoy yourself with your wife and try to realise god in mithuna? Quote any major upanishad or any commentary for Veda, upanishad and gita which subscribes to such views

    Yes, sex is a part of upasana only in tantric view. Request you not to extend it to vaishnav philosophy, if so, request you to quote or validate your submission.

    Your comments on Shrimad Ramanuja accusing him for not making an information public is highly derogatory. You are accusing an acharya for not disclosing truth. Request you to remeber the story of Shri Dhuruvasa, where he was chased by Shri Sudarsana for this derogatory comments on Bhaktha of Lord.

    Jai shree krishna.

    After such insults, I am ashamed for two things

    1. Having responded to you logically
    2. For those people who had increased your reputation to 30.

    Further to the readers of this thread, I request you not to insult any guru, be it Prabhupada, Ramanuja, Sankara, Vallabha, Madhavacharya - any negative remarks is a remark against yourself. You can hold a different opinion, that is OK, request you to make your opinons humble.

    Remember, even if you try to be one from now onwards, it is going to take your entire lifetime to make a prabhupada out of you. If so, when you are going to be a person like Chaitanya, Ramanuja, Sankara or Madhavacharya.

    I tender my apologies to Arjuna, if in any sense, I had hurted his feelings.

    Jai shree krishna

  3. #23
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    Namaste,

    Hope U excuse me for not dealing with each and every point in details. I have no desire to impose my views (or Kaula views) upon U or anyone. If Kaula-darshana is acceptible, OK. If not, it is Ur will. I respect Ur choice.

    Then, to some points:

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Most absurb submission. I am sorry for such wordings. Agamas are not meant to be superior to Veda by any means.
    U may think whatever U like, but this is the fact. Not only Tantric, but most of Shaiva and Vaishnava traditions regard Vedas as a lesser authority and some even reject it.

    For example, Vira-shaivism is fully based upon 28 Shaivagamas and rejects Vedic authority. And it is widely spread Shaiva school, one of major 6 (and not a Tantric one btw). Kashmiri Shaivism also doesn't accept Vedic authority, but only the authority of Bhairavagamas, Shaivagamas and Shaiva-sutras. Pashupata-shaivism is based upon Pashupata-sutra, Panchartha-bhashya and Mrigendragama.
    Gaudiya-vaishnavism (original one, not ISCKON) treats Vedas as a lesser authority, while its primary authority are Gita and Bhagavata-purana (vaishnava version of it).

    Finally, even when Vedas are theoretically accepted as equal to Agamas, in practice the whole ritual and yoga-sadhana are based on the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Request you not to use Shaivism and Vaishanavism in such opinions. Regarding Tantri, you can make such claims, as I am not good in that, I am none to comment on that.
    It is evident U do not have a detailed knowledge of these traditions. It should be easy to check up my statements, why not try?

    Regarding Vira-shaivism i just checked with "Shivena Saha Nartanam" by Jagadguru Shivaya Subramuniyaswami. And my Paramaguru in Kalikrama was a Virashaiva Jangama — so i have some knowledge of it. It is not possible to ignore Vira-shaivism, it is an orthodox Shaiva school.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    From when Veda became written veda
    Veda can mean "eternal Knowledge", Brahma-vidya, Shruti as a whole, Divine Revelation. But usually by Veda we call a set of scriptures limited to 4 Samhitas (in several versions), to these Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads may be added.
    I specially used an expression "written Veda", since VEDA in the first sense can never be out of date.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Verily Jain thought. Jains verily say Vedas are authoritative
    I do not care what jainas think. If they accept reincarnation or karma-theory, it doesn't make these "thoughts" jaina ones!
    Shaktas never borrowed anything from Jainism, as well as Shaivas.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    How does sex places a role in this? During our discussion elsewhere you pointed out that intercourse is to make ones wife happy etc, this statement does not corroborate your stance
    In normal marriage the aims of sex are two:
    1. Enjoyment (kama); and while U may say that enjoyment of oneself is selfish, making one's wife to enjoy is an act or pure love. And to make one's wife happy is a dharma of every husband, be he Kaula, yogi or whosoever.
    2. Procreation.

    In Tantrism the aims are these:
    1. Realising the bliss of Brahman in sexual intercourse (physical and remembered).
    2. Devotional act towards Devi, present in a woman.
    3. It is a necessary part of specific rituals dealing with Kula-tattvas.
    4. Total merging in Love, samavesha.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Advaiti system and Patanjai systems does prohibits
    Where? And for whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Yogi who realises god, atma and reality does not go with intercourse for his aim is absolutely god and not intercourse and progeny.
    I do not see any logical necessity in this.
    Is sex apart from God or what? Isn't God present in a woman one loves? How can a realisation of God and Atman suffer from having sex?

    We are talking about grihasthis, remember. Siddha-yogi doesn't need physical sex, but he can enjoy Brahmananda in it as well. If he is married and loves his wife (and he will love her as he sees Devi in her), he will enjoy sex with her.

    What is the problem in this?

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    There is no concept of Grihastha Yogi loving to have sex with his wife. He may love his wife but love is not for enjoying sex with her. Request you not to give an image of sexomanic for people who had realised God.
    Sex is a natural aspect of Love (though of course not a main one). Natural means it will naturally occur if Love is there, unless one restrains forcefully. And restraint is indeed anti-monistic idea.

    What is the problem for a realised Yogi to enjoy sex? He is not dependant upon sex, yes, not sexomaniac. But if he lives with a woman, he enjoys with her.

    I request U not to give an image of people who had realised God as lacking Love and rejecting bliss.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    During the path of becoming a Yogi one is taught to see Atma and Lord in every living things and non living things. A person who is supposed to see Atma and Lord, if you opine, see flesh and sex, the very idea is absurd
    This doesn't mean there is no distinction. Yogi sees divine nature of everything, but it doesn't imply that his Guru and wife are same for him as cowdung or potato!

  4. #24
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    I am just marking my presence and visit to his page. Request for some one to reiterate the words of Shri Arjuna so that I can comment on it.

    Thanks

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    I am not saying they asked every one to abstain from sex. They adviced to limit to progeny.
    Please, where this is said — to limit sex to progeny?

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Further where does veda, upanishad and gita asks you to enjoy yourself with your wife and try to realise god in mithuna? Quote any major upanishad or any commentary for Veda, upanishad and gita which subscribes to such views
    Did i say this is a teaching of Vedas? I said only it is not contradicting Vedas, that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Yes, sex is a part of upasana only in tantric view. Request you not to extend it to vaishnav philosophy, if so, request you to quote or validate your submission.
    There are several Tantric traditions inside Vaishnavism.
    What i said about Pancharatra is a reference to Lakshmi-tantra, one of Pancharatragamas.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Your comments on Shrimad Ramanuja accusing him for not making an information public is highly derogatory. You are accusing an acharya for not disclosing truth.
    I do not understand Ur anger. In no way i was insulting Ramanuja. It is natural that certain sadhanas are secret, there is nothing wrong in that.
    Moreover, some things have to be kept in secret.

    Truth about God is not to be hidden. But methods can be and are, since not every method is opened for everyone. Specific sadhanas demand specific dikshas and upadesha.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    After such insults, I am ashamed for two things
    Sorry if i made such impression. I never insulted or meant to insult Vaishnavism, Ramanuja or Shankara.

  6. #26
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    Namaste all.
    I offer my respectful obeisances unto Shri Arjuna and Shri Ramkish42.
    I hope my post will help to solve your debate.

    Brahmacharya is abstaining from all kinds of Maithuna or sexual enjoyment for ever, in all places and in all conditions, physically, mentally and verbally. - Yajnavalkya

    Thinking of a woman or her picture, praising a woman or her picture, sporting with a woman or her picture, glancing at a woman or her picture, secretly talking to a woman, thinking of a sinful action towards a woman actuated by sensuality, determining upon the sinful action, and bodily action resulting in the discharge of semen are the eight characteristics of copulation; and Brahmacharya is quite contrary to all these eight indications. - Daksha Smriti


    Know that in this world there is nothing that cannot be attained by one who remains from birth to death a perfect celibate... In one person, knowledge of the four Vedas, and in another, perfect celibacy - of these, the latter is superior to the former who is wanting in celibacy.
    - The Mahabharata


    And those students who find that world of God through chastity, theirs is that heavenly country; theirs, in whatever world they are, is freedom. - Chhandogya Upanishad

    These sexual propensities, though they are at first like ripples, acquire the proportions of a sea on account of bad company. - Narada

    Sensuality destroys life, lustre, strength, vitality, memory, wealth, great fame, holiness and devotion to the Supreme. - Lord Krishna

    Death is hastened by letting out semen from the body; life is saved and prolonged by preserving it.

    There is no doubt that people die prematurely by letting the semen out of the body; knowing this, the Yogi should always preserve semen and lead a life of strict celibacy.
    - Siva Samhita

    Caution in diet is of threefold value, but abstinence from sexual intercourse is of fourfold value. The Sannyasi had, and has a rule never to look at a woman. - Atreya

    Let not a Brahmin see a woman naked. - Manu

    21.There are three gates leading to this hell — lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul.
    22.The man who has escaped these three gates of hell, O son of Kuntī, performs acts conducive to self-realization and thus gradually attains the supreme destination.
    -Srimad Bhagavad Gita,chapter 16

    20.A man or woman who indulges in sexual intercourse with an unworthy member of the opposite sex is punished after death by the assistants of Yamarāja in the hell known as Taptasūrmi. There such men and women are beaten with whips. The man is forced to embrace a red-hot iron form of a woman, and the woman is forced to embrace a similar form of a man. Such is the punishment for illicit sex.
    21.A person who indulges in sex indiscriminately — even with animals — is taken after death to the hell known as Vajrakaṇṭaka-śālmalī. In this hell there is a silk-cotton tree full of thorns as strong as thunderbolts. The agents of Yamarāja hang the sinful man on that tree and pull him down forcibly so that the thorns very severely tear his body.
    -Srimad Bhagavatam,Canto 5,Chapter 26

    (1) S'rî Nârada said: 'A student [brahmacârî] living at the residence of the guru, should for the sake of his guru practice restraint, humility and obedience and be firm in friendship towards his spiritual teacher. (2) In both the evening and in the morning should he worship the guru, the fire, the sun and the Best One of Enlightenment [Lord Vishnu], silently murmuring absorbed in prayer [the Gâyatrî]. (3) When called by the spiritual master, he should orderly practice the mantra's and in the beginning and the end well-behaved offer his obeisances with his head at the lotus feet. (4) Equipped with a straw rope around his waist, garments of deerskin, matted hair, a rod, a waterpot and a sacred thread, should he take up the kus'a-gras [for sitting] as is prescribed. (5) In the morning and the evening he should go out to collect alms and offer all that he collects to the guru. He should eat when ordered or otherwise fast at times. (6) Very polite, only eating to necessity should he, industrious and full of faith, to necessity relating with the outward life of women and the men they control, be of control over his senses [compare 3.3: 5]. (7) He, not belonging to the householders life, must, to the as good as invincible senses that even take away the mind of a renunciate, give it up to address women with the observance of the great vow of celibacy [the yama of ashthânga-yoga]. (8) To brush the hair, massage the body, to bathe and rub it in with oil is something that the still young wife of the guru should never be allowed to do as a service if the adept is still young [see also 1.11:29]. (9) Especially the bewildered worship [of her] is like fire to the pot of butter that a man is; with other women, even with his own daughter, should he, living in seclusion, not associate more than is needed.-Srimad Bhagavatam,Canto 7,Chapter 12

    (7) Seeing a woman does one who didn't conquer his senses, enticed with that seductive illusory energy of God, blind fall down into the darkness, just like a moth falls into the fire. (8) Upon seeing the clothing, golden ornaments and so on of women as arranged by mâyâ, does a person of no discrimination aroused by lusty desires with the desire for sense-gratification no doubt, the way a moth is destroyed, find his intelligence ruined. -Srimad Bhagavatam,Canto 11,Chapter 8

    (14) A man of wisdom should - death to himself - never chase a woman, as he'll be destroyed as an elephant [in competition] is by others superior in strength. -Srimad Bhagavatam,Canto 11,Chapter 8

    (29) Giving up being intimate with women [to have sex with them, with others or otherwise] and keeping far from the company of womanizers should one, mastering the self, sit at ease in seclusion and with great care concentrate on Me.(30) No other attachment gives a man as much suffering and bondage like the attachment to women and the association of those attached to women -Srimad Bhagavatam,Canto 11,Chapter 14

    (33) With women, or sex-minded living beings, glancing, touching, conversing and joking and such is the first thing that someone not keeping a household [the sannyâsî, the vânaprastha and the brahmacârî] should forsake.-Srimad Bhagavatam,Canto 11,Chapter 17

    (22) He who knows what's best for him, should never but even initiate contact with women or men attracted to women for no other reason than the fact that the mind united with the senses reaching out to the sense-objects gets agitated. (23) A thing not heard or seen gives no rise to mental agitation; the mind of the one restricting the forces of life, thus checked, becomes pacified. (24) When the senses, these six enemies, not even by wise men can be trusted, then what to say of persons like me; it is for that reason that one shouldn't seek association with women or men attracted to women .' -Srimad Bhagavatam,Chapter 26

  7. #27
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    At http://www.yoga-age.com/modern/brahpractice.html you may read the whole book "Practice of Brahmacharya" by Swami Sivananda.
    In the first section of the book he says:

    6. THE VALUE OF SEMEN
    My dear brothers! The vital energy, the Veerya that supports your life, which is the Prana of Pranas, which shines in your sparkling eyes, which beams in your shining cheeks, is a great treasure for you. Remember this point well. Veerya is the quintessence of blood. One drop of semen is manufactured out of forty drops of blood. Mark here how valuable this fluid is!

    A tree draws the essence or Rasa from the earth. This essence is circulated throughout the tree, its twigs, branches, leaves, flowers and fruits. The shining colours and life in the leaves, flowers and fruits are due to this Rasa. Similarly, the Veerya that is manufactured by the cells of the testes out of blood gives colour and vitality to the human body and its different organs.

    According to Ayurveda, semen is the last Dhatu that is formed out of food. Out of food is manufactured chyle. Out of chyle comes blood. Out of blood comes flesh. Out of flesh comes fat. Out of fat comes bone. Out of bone comes marrow. Out of marrow comes semen. These are the Sapta Dhatus or the seven Dhatus that support this life and body. Mark here how precious is semen! It is the last essence. It is the Essence of essences. The Veerya comes out of the very marrow that lies concealed inside the bones.

    There are three divisions in each Dhatu. Semen nourishes the physical body, the heart and the intellect. Only that man who uses the physical body, the heart and the intellect can have perfect Brahmacharya. A wrestler who uses his physical body only, but keeps the intellect and the heart undeveloped, cannot expect to have full Brahmacharya. He can have Brahmacharya of the body only, but not of the mind and the heart. The semen that belongs to the heart and the mind will certainly flow out. If an aspirant does only Japa and meditation, if he does not develop the heart, and if he does not practice physical exercise, he will have only mental Brahmacharya. The portion of the semen, which goes to nourish the heart and the body, will flow out. But an advanced Yogi who dives deep in meditation will have full Brahmacharya even if he does not take physical exercise.

    Semen is the quintessence of food or blood. One drop of semen in manufactured out of forty drops of blood according to modern medical science. According to Ayurveda, it is elaborated out of eighty drops of blood. The two testes or seeds that are located in the scrotal bag are called secretory glands. The cells of these testes have been endowed with the peculiar property of secreting semen from the blood. Just as bees collect honey in the honeycomb drop by drop, so also, the cells of the testes collect semen drop by drop from the blood. Then this fluid is taken by the two ducts or tubes to the vesiculae seminalis. Under excitement, it is thrown out by special ducts, called ejaculatory ducts, into the urethra where it is mixed with the prostatic juice.

    Semen is found in a subtle state in all the cells of the body. Just as sugar is all-pervading in the sugar-cane, butter in milk, so also, semen is pervading the whole body. Just as the butter milk is thin after the butter is removed, so also, semen is thinned by its wastage. The more the wastage of semen the more is the weakness. In the Yoga Sastras it is said:

    Maranam Bindu Patanat,
    Jivanam Bindu Rakshanat.

    Falling of semen brings death; preservation of semen gives life. Semen is the real vitality in men. It is the hidden treasure in man. It imparts Brahma-Tejas to the face and strength to the intellect.

    Modern medical opinion
    Eminent European medical men also support the statement of the Yogins of India. Dr. Nicole says: "It is a medical and physiological fact that the best blood in the body goes to form the elements of reproduction in both the sexes. In a pure and orderly life, this matter is reabsorbed. It goes back into circulation ready to form the finest brain, nerve and muscular tissues. This vital fluid of man carried back and diffused through his system makes him manly, strong, brave and heroic. If wasted, it leaves him effeminate, weak and physically debilitated and prone to sexual irritation and disordered function, a wretched nervous system, epilepsy, and various other diseases and death. The suspension of the use of the generative organs is attended with a notable increase of bodily and mental and spiritual vigour."

    If the spermatic secretion in men is continuous, it must either be expelled or be reabsorbed. As a result of the most patient and persevering scientific investigations, it has been found that whenever the seminal secretions are conserved and thereby reabsorbed into the system, it goes towards enriching the blood and strengthening the brain. Dr. Dio Louis thinks that the conservation of this element is essential to strength of body, vigour of mind and keenness of intellect. Another writer, Dr. E.P. Miller, says: "All waste of spermatic secretions, whether voluntary or involuntary, is a direct waste of the life force. It is almost universally conceded that the choicest element of the blood enters into the composition of the spermatic secretion. If these conclusions are correct, then it follows that a chaste life is essential to man’s well-being."

    Mind, Prana and Veerya
    Mind, Prana and Veerya are the three links of one chain. They are the three pillars of the edifice of Jivatma. Destroy one pillar—mind, Prana or Veerya—and the whole building will fall to pieces.

    Mind, Prana and Veerya are one. By controlling the mind, you can control Prana and semen. By controlling Prana you can control the mind and semen. By controlling semen, you can control the mind and Prana.

    Mind, Prana and Veerya are under the one Sambandha or connection or circuit. If the mind is controlled, Prana and Veerya are controlled automatically. He who suspends or restrains Prana restrains also the working of the mind and the movement of the Veerya. Again, if the Veerya is controlled, and if it is made to flow upwards into the brain by pure thoughts and the practice of Viparita Karani Mudras such as Sarvangasana and Sirshasana and Pranayama, the mind and the Prana are automatically controlled.

    The mind is set in motion or rendered active by two things—the vibration of Prana and the Vasanas or subtle desires. Where the mind is absorbed, there the Prana is restrained; and where the Prana is fixed, there the mind also is absorbed. Mind and Prana are intimate companions, like a man and his shadow. If the mind and the Prana are not restrained, all the organs of sensation and action keep actively engaged in their respective functions.

    When a man is excited by passion, the Prana is set in motion. Then the whole body obeys the dictate of the mind just as a soldier obeys the command of his commander. The vital air or Prana moves the internal sap or semen. The semen is put into motion. It falls downwards, just as the clouds burst into rain water, just as the fruits, flowers and leaves of the trees drop down by the force of the blowing winds.

    If the Veerya is lost, Prana gets unsteady. Prana is agitated. The man becomes nervous. Then the mind also cannot work properly. The man becomes fickle-minded. There is mental weakness.

    If the Prana is rendered steady, the mind also becomes steady. If the Veerya is steady, the mind also is steady. If the Veerya is steady, the mind also is steady. If the Drishti or vision is steady, the mind also becomes steady. Therefore, control the Prana, the Veerya and the Drishti.

    God is Rasa. Raso Vai Sah. Rasa is Veerya, the vital fluid or semen. You can get eternal bliss by the attainment of Rasa or Veerya only. Rasohyevayam Labdhva Anandi Bhavati.

    Grasp fully the importance and value of this vital essence of life. Veerya is all power. Veerya is all money. Veerya is God. Veerya is Sita. Veerya is Radha. Veerya is Durga. Veerya is God in motion. Veerya is dynamic Will. Veerya is Atma-Bal. Veerya is God’s Vibhuti. The Lord says in the Gita: "Paurusham Nrishu. I am the seed or virility in men". Veerya is the essence of life, thought, intelligence and consciousness. Therefore, preserve this vital fluid very, very carefully, my dear readers!


    In the second section of the book,Chapter 7,he says:
    The door to Nirvana or perfection is complete Brahmacharya. Complete celibacy is the master-key to open the realms of Elysian bliss. The avenue to the abode of supreme peace begins from Brahmacharya or purity.


    Regards,
    Orlando.

  8. #28
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    Dear Bhakthaji

    Thank you

    I am waiting for some one who does not insult great gurus to reiterate the views of Arjunaji so that I can present my comments against Sexual intercourse in realising Soul, god and relationship of soul and god

    Jai shree krishna

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Gaudiya-vaishnavism (original one, not ISCKON) treats Vedas as a lesser authority, while its primary authority are Gita and Bhagavata-purana (vaishnava version of it).
    It isn't that Gaudiya-Vaishnavism treats Vedas as a lesser authorithy.It considers impossible to study the Vedas in Kali-yuga.Please read http://www.gosai.com/dvaita/madhvaca...hagavatam.html

    Regards,
    Orlando.

  10. #30
    To Arjuna,

    Any path which considers vedas to be lesser than whatever be their main sastra will not be hindu. I hope you mean in terms of sadhana. Of course vedic karma kanda cannot be exactly followed in this age. And hardly many follow. But vedas or more general sruti are the fountainhead of the dharma. Whether you are sakta, saiva or vaishnava God realization is to be judged as per sruti. I think all paths accept the authority of vedas on knowledge. In sadhana vedas may take a lesser position~or even ignored. I think this should be made very clear.

    Also it is not difficult to see how sex can be made part of the upasana, but if most of sruti and words of Shankara and many other acharyas is to be believed enjoying sexual union cannot be held superior to brahmacharya. I think it has it's place in the traditions-that's it. It all depends on the mind set of the upasak~knowledge and self realization is the key of sanatana dharma not the particular external method used to attain so.

    Anyway 2 cents. I generally should keep away from discussions on sadhana.
    Last edited by Singhi Kaya; 20 April 2006 at 04:44 PM.

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