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Thread: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

  1. #1

    Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    My question is a little bit complicated (for me).
    Vishnu and Shiva evolved from vedic Gods. Now we say that these vedic gods are just Avatars (Vamana and R-dra) of two greater Gods.
    What is when only humans made them so great and we worship the older vedic gods and they just think: "they worship us wrong but its okay..."
    Its just because most of the gods can be found in other religons with other names, but not Vishnu and Shiva.

    I am the new one...
    sooo please dont hate me for my inexperience

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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Namaste ji,

    I know this post is kind of old, and I am not sure I understand your question, so please forgive me if my response is no real answer to it. Perhaps you could add some light by describing more in-depth your observations/question....
    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    Vishnu and Shiva evolved from vedic Gods. Now we say that these vedic gods are just Avatars (Vamana and R-dra) of two greater Gods.
    I cannot speak to Sri Vishnu/Vamana observation, an I am no scholar. It is my understanding that the name "Siva" means "Most Pure and Ultimate" and is used to describe all of the Gods in the Vedas at one point or another, not just Sri Rudra. That the Trimurthi were distilled from those scriptures later, and the reasons and timeline for how this happened - assuming it is correct - is something else altogether.
    What is when only humans made them so great and we worship the older vedic gods and they just think: "they worship us wrong but its okay..."
    Bhagavad Gita, 9.26:
    patram puspam phalam toyam
    yo me bhaktya prayacchati
    tad aham bhakty-upahrtam
    asnami prayatatmanah

    We worship them wrong how and by what standard? These are God's own directions for the simplest, consistent worship: with the heart and mind.
    Its just because most of the gods can be found in other religons with other names, but not Vishnu and Shiva.
    What gave you that idea? Of course Shiva and Vishnu are both existent in other non-abrahamic cultures. In fact, they existed/exist in most of them that had contact with or were heavily infuenced by migrants out of the ancient Indian continent - which is to say most of Europe and Asia, and potentially Native America as well.
    sooo please dont hate me for my inexperience
    Peace and love, brother. _/\_ =)

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  3. #3

    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post

    We worship them wrong how and by what standard? These are God's own directions for the simplest, consistent worship: with the heart and mind.

    What gave you that idea? Of course Shiva and Vishnu are both existent in other non-abrahamic cultures. In fact, they existed/exist in most of them that had contact with or were heavily infuenced by migrants out of the ancient Indian continent - which is to say most of Europe and Asia, and potentially Native America as well.
    I did not mean that the WORSHIP is worng. I meant that we have a wronge image of the gods. That they are actually "just" a son of Brahma and one of Aditi and not so great like they are as part of Trimurti; if they are lesser and no major gods in reallity...


    And who are they in these cultures? I only found them in the lesser forms.

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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Namaskar ji,
    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    I did not mean that the WORSHIP is worng. I meant that we have a wronge image of the gods. That they are actually "just" a son of Brahma and one of Aditi and not so great like they are as part of Trimurti; if they are lesser and no major gods in reallity...
    Oh, I see!
    Well, I suppose some may see it that way... there are many ways of seeing after all. But if for no other reason than that the Vedas proclaim that they are worthy of our worship, then they are, and we must remember that.
    And who are they in these cultures? I only found them in the lesser forms.
    This is probably not the best place for such a discussion, as I do not want to hurt the sentiments of those who might disagree. There are several works and studies done on the matter - not by the 'usual' group, Wendy Donniger and her ilk, but by other more respectful researchers, Dr. David Frawley among them. If you would like to take the discussion futher, perhaps it would be better in PM.

    I will say that sadly they are greatly diminished and in some cases in the west almost completely erased along with the cultures and languages that worshipped them; in the East by millennia of Taoism, Confucianism, Communism and then Abrahamics, and in the west by first the Romans and then the Abrahamics. And you can find at least one of them in the avatar choices for this board.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Namaste PT,

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    Vishnu and Shiva evolved from vedic Gods. Now we say that these vedic gods are just Avatars (Vamana and R-dra) of two greater Gods.
    Vishnu and Shiva are mentioned in Veda SamhitA. So, I am unable to understand why you don't see them as Vedic Gods. I am not sure if VAmana Avatar is mentioned in Veda SamhitA ( I don't remember). Vishnu is mentioned by name in Veda SamhitA and Shiva is mentioned as Rudra and also as That who lives in HimAlaya. Rudra is also mentioned as the Supreme God, the Ultimate Reality, the Self, Param Brahman in VedAnta (ref : SvetAsvara Upanishad and other Upanishads of Krishna Yajur Veda).

    What is when only humans made them so great and we worship the older vedic gods and they just think: "they worship us wrong but its okay..."
    Its just because most of the gods can be found in other religons with other names, but not Vishnu and Shiva.
    All this confusion arises due to faulty idea of God. First of all, there are not many Gods. God is one alone. Yes, there are many devatas who live in Devalokas (which is a subtle realm of spiritually highly evolved souls and some of them take part in Nature's work). Lord BrahmA, Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva are not one of those gods of Devalokas. Lord BrahmA is the form/aspect of God which creates this whole universe. Lord Vishnu is that aspect of the same God which acts as the nourisher and one who takes care of the creation and finally, God as Shiva is that aspect of God which destroys everything when time comes.

    Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are worshiped as PaurANic God as mentioned above by most of the Hindus but they are also worshiped as Param Brahman by people of various sects. The Vaishnavas worship Vishnu as the Param Brahman whereas the Shaivas worship Lord Shiva as the Param Brahman. In fact, there is another sect i.e. the ShAktas who worship mother Goddess as the Param Brahman.

    All this makes it very,very confusing ! Right ? No, it is not really so. What is God ? It is not an entity that our human mind can understand. VedAnta tells us that God is Infinite Consciousness, without part, blissful, the controller of the worlds, the origin and end of all beings. Hindus believe that God takes the name and form which you worship. That is why in Vedas sometimes one form /name of God and sometimes another name/form of God is praised as the Supreme God. Mudgala Upanishad says, "He became as He was worshiped". So, it is your own faith, own belief system which gives a particular name and form to God.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    Vishnu and Shiva evolved from Vedic Gods.
    'Presumption to support AMT'

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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    'Presumption to support AMT'
    Namaste HLK ji,

    Please forgive my ignorance, but what is 'AMT'?

    Devotee ji, you say so perfectly, thank you. I can't give you 'karma' again so soon, so must thank you in this way.

    ~Pranamo
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Thanks for your kind words, Anandini ji ! They are more valuable to me.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #9

    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Vishnu is called Vishnu in the vedas but he is one of the adityas a son of Aditi. And he is called the god who measures space with three steps (Vamana).
    Shiva in the vedas is only a son of Brahma, jumped out of his forehead. Today also called an avatar of shiva.
    The puranic major gods are different. And I want to know why these storys are true and why we are not praying to the vedic "smaller" gods and just think that they are so much powerful and part of the trimurti.

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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Namaste PT,

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    Vishnu is called Vishnu in the vedas but he is one of the adityas a son of Aditi. And he is called the god who measures space with three steps (Vamana).
    So, in your opinion, it lowers the status of Vishnu in the Vedas ?

    Shiva in the vedas is only a son of Brahma, jumped out of his forehead. Today also called an avatar of shiva.
    Where is this written ? Please quote from the Vedas.

    The puranic major gods are different.
    If Shiva and Vishnu are not Pauranic major gods, then who are they ? You mean to say that Lord Rama, Lord Krishna etc. are not Vishnu ? What is the authority for saying so ?

    And I want to know why these storys are true and why we are not praying to the vedic "smaller" gods and just think that they are so much powerful and part of the trimurti.
    What you want to ask is not clear. Why these stories are true ? OK. Why do you think that story of Jesus Christ is true ? How do you know that Agni, VAyu, Indra etc. are not worshiped today ? Have you gone to any Vedic Yajna ? You may ask the Vedic priests to explain you what they do in these Yajna.

    No one stops you from offering sacrifices to Vedic Gods. What perhaps stirs your mind is common SmArta tradition in which we worship mainly Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti, SUrya and Ganesha. However, it doesn't mean that other gods are not worshiped in other traditions or that they are never worshiped at all. Each Hindu tradition is different and each tradition has its own chosen deities to worship.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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