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Thread: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

  1. #11

    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post

    So, in your opinion, it lowers the status of Vishnu in the Vedas ?

    Where is this written ? Please quote from the Vedas.

    If Shiva and Vishnu are not Pauranic major gods, then who are they ? What is the authority for saying so ?

    How do you know that Agni, VAyu, Indra etc. are not worshiped today ?
    1. Yes, I think Veda-Vishnu is just modern Vamana, principally.
    2. Boy, is my face red ... . This is a puranic story. My bad.
    3. I´m the new one. In religion and this forum. I just want to learn and be sure. The religions of vishnu and shiva came much later then vedic religion and I just what to know where this came from and how authentic it is. In the vedas they are very powerful gods but being 2/3 of brahman is much more level higher.
    4. Oh, they are worshiped. The first prayer of my sacrifices is to agni and I pray to Indra (sometimes... and with another name )

  2. #12
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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    1. Yes, I think Veda-Vishnu is just modern Vamana, principally.
    2. Boy, is my face red ... . This is a puranic story. My bad.
    3. I´m the new one. In religion and this forum. I just want to learn and be sure. The religions of vishnu and shiva came much later then vedic religion and I just what to know where this came from and how authentic it is. In the vedas they are very powerful gods but being 2/3 of brahman is much more level higher.
    4. Oh, they are worshiped. The first prayer of my sacrifices is to agni and I pray to Indra (sometimes... and with another name )
    Back to square one ? The beauty of squaring 1 is that it doesn't go any step ahead irrespective of how many times you do it. It remains at the same place where it was at the beginning of the journey.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #13

    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    I did not understand a word

  4. #14
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    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Namaste ji,

    I think I don't understand what is meant by "The religions of Vishnu and Shiva". What are their different 'religions'? There are different traditions in each various lineage, regardless of which Deity is viewed as Supreme, and each Deity honors and worships the other. The goal is mostly the same, regardless.

    My reading/study thus far indicates the Upanishads, Puranas and other scriptures are interpretations of, or perhaps more accurately 'decompiling' of the dense information in the Vedas, that is aside from the ritual instructions kept within sections of the Vedas. So that people may better understand, remember, and progress throughout the Yugas. At least one source has posited that the focus of most of the rituals in the Vedas are for better living in the material world, while we are here, and the focus of the Upanishads and other scriptures is spiritual progress so we may grow faster and better, and shorten our necessary time here over all (fewer lives, hopefully). This is simply what I have understood so far, perhaps it is misguided, if others know better please correct.

    Devotee ji says it rightly, Vishnu and Shiva are both in the Vedas as we know them today. What are you reading, or what translation of the Vedas have you read that gives you the impression you have? Prior comments seems to me to be a graceful way of suggesting you are using circular logic - chasing your own tail gets you nowhere.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  5. #15

    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Namaste PestThurse

    Many have such impressions about the relationship between Veda and PurAN because that is what they are taught, told -- that these are all things ancient people "made up" , "stories"

    You must read the thread "Aditi and Ushas in Vedas" under Scriptures ---> Vedas and Bramhanas
    Here is a repeat of how I understand it

    * What is Ved? Eternal Truth, knowledge of eternal truth can be imparted in many ways but truth does not change.
    * The vedas you read today were divided and compiled by Veda VyAs of this yuga at end of Dvapar,
    are talking about current kapla, current manvantar . This is why they talk about VishNu's glories by taking a sample of His avatAr leelA, i.e. Urukrama or VAman avatAr.

    Then again, VishNu covering the trailokya in 3 steps is an Eternal Truth showing His all-pervasiveness. Not just restricted to VAman avatAr. In VAman avatAr, the Lord displayed this thru' the medium of LeelA. That is all. Unless He takes avatAr, we would never get a glimpse of His glories. All avatAr combined -- what they showed us, is merely a tip of the iceberg called Bramhan - ParamAtmA - BhagavAn.

    Different Rshis HEARD hymns (shruti) taking different samplings from the paurANic itihAs.
    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    **** Remember - Vedas do not provide chronology, or explain history explicitly, or give qualifiers for each name uttered. Vedic hymns (Ruchi) are spontaneous poetic stuti (glorification) of all daivi prakruti.

    * The Vedic mandala take things (chronology) for granted as their purpose is hymns and chants and mantras.
    The purANa, particularly BhAgvat PurAN, unravel the mystery of the cyclic history.


    * Veda glorifies and BhAgvat clarifies - beings, devas, aspects, things, existence, truth, sub-truths. [BhAgvat glorifies BhagvAn Shri KrshNa, NArAyaNa, Bramhan]

    Indra as we know changes every manvantar (tomorrow, daityaraj Bali will be Indra by boon from Vishnu avatar VAman a.k.a. Urukrama, the 10th Aditya - a group of 12 devas for this 7th manvantar).
    So it is Indra-pada that is attained by deserving jivas. They all have features, characteristics, guNa, personal and impersonal aspects.

    Look at it this way: currently, this is our sun, this is our solar system, having shani, guru, mangal, budh... as planets.
    Milky way and Andromeda are galaxies.
    Tomorrow, there will be new galaxies, new solar systems, new planets.
    Everyone has a role to play.

    The potential to manifest galaxies and solar system remains, but there are different instances of galaxies, solar systems, planets and universes.

    * Vedas sometimes call the same Brahman by the different characteristics because they are all His characteristics.

    * The vedas you read today are talking about current kapla, current manvantar and the pada (common noun, position) and nAma - proper noun are used interchangeably.
    Aditi, daughter of prajapati Daksha and wife of prajapati Kashyhap gave birth to 12 divine beings who played the role of one of many deva-gaNa. First She had 6, and the stories before 7th was born say so.
    Then she had 7 and then 8 and then 12.
    So some people think these are contradictions in the Veda. No. These are historical snapshots when the other younger sibling Adityas were not yet born.

    * VishNu takes avatAr and honors a pair of jivas as parents each time upon request from devotees. Sometimes the same pair become parents when He takes the next avatArs.

    PRshNi-Sutapa : PRshNi-garbha
    Devaki-Vasudeva : Shri KRshNa (VAsudeva)
    Aditi-Kashyap: VAman (Urukrama)

    * It is not like "XYZ happened one time" in the Vedas.
    Time is cyclic. What is described as each manvantara, kalpa, yuga happens again and again and again.

    That is why you come across : "In this kalpa / manvantar, XYZ is the prajapati, ABC is Indra, xxx is Surya, xxx is Chandra and so on.

    * When there are apparently contradictory stories in the purANa, in some cases it may be due to kalpa-bheda (differences owing to different kalpa). The same framework, but history, while repeating itself showed A in one kalpa and B in another, therefore one purana is talking about things happening in A kalpa while another is talking about the same major event in B kalpa.

    We are in the shveta-varaha kalpa -- reference : when varAha avatar was shveta (white-creamish) and not KRshNa (black-dark).


    * All deva have both an impersonal (common noun) and personal (proper noun) side. Meditate on meaning of the name to understand the impersonal side. Together the devas make the whole truth called Brahman. This is why devas are parts and aspects of Bramhan, but some are also positions taken by various jivas during kaala cycles.

    * The impersonal tattva (principles) take forms and shapes in the framework of time. The tattva are also associated with Daivi-guNa (Divine qualities).
    Last edited by smaranam; 26 September 2015 at 01:08 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #16

    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Could you just tell me why they are the same (especially shiva and rdra) in the most simple english?
    Its getting to much for me. I even dont know why hindus leave out letters in some words or why they wRIte lIkE thAT? Where is the head-explode-smiley?

  7. #17

    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Quote Originally Posted by PestThurse View Post
    Could you just tell me why they are the same (especially shiva and rdra) in the most simple english?
    Its getting to much for me. I even dont know why hindus leave out letters in some words or why they wRIte lIkE thAT? Where is the head-explode-smiley?


    1. MahAdev i.e. Lord Shiva and RUdra are the same because Shiva (the auspicious pure One) manifested as RUdra (Who compassionately cries on seeing the sorrow in the world and wants to put an end to it) from BramhaDev's (Lord BramhA's) forehead, i.e. the same eternal original One , who is Shiva (as One of His characteristic and name) manifested as RUdra for a purpose. [However, now they have different roles -- the manifestation and original ]

    Just as VishNu (the same Eternal original All-pervading Omniscient Omnipotent Omnipresent One) manifested as VAman at a point in time so you think they are two

    ----
    2. Hindus write lIke tHiS for saMskRt pronunciation

    R = ru (the devnagri letter ru)
    N = Na as in kRshNa , vishNu, and not 'na' as in Night, never, new, nAbhI-kamal
    A = aa [long vowel sound] as in Arta , Aditi, rAdhA, kRpA, and not 'a' [short vowel sound] as in pada , pankti, para , thus, bus, must
    I = ee [long vowel] as in meet, mItAhAr, and not 'i' [short vowel] as in sit kit bit split

    and so on...
    vowels :
    a A i I u U e ai o au M ah:

    consonants :
    ka kha ga gha ~na
    cha chha ja jha y~na
    ta tha da dha na
    Ta Tha Da Dha Na
    pa pha ba bha ma
    ya ra la wa sha
    s'ha sa ha La ksha dnya
    Last edited by smaranam; 28 September 2015 at 11:38 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  8. #18

    Re: Shiva &Vishnu (Vedic, Puranic)

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post


    1. However, now they have different roles -- the manifestation and original

    you think they are two


    I called the different appearences and roles as different different deities for simpler thoughts. I know that an avatar or manifestation is principally the same as the god. But I also call Veerabhadra and Bhairava as independent gods. But they are both shiva...
    Rdra is a very powerful god but I dont know the way from him to the divine, formless and more powerful shiva. In shiva purana shiva said: "Another being will come out of me, Rdra" (Baaaaaaaaaad translation). So why and when did the big step from rdra to shiva, veda to purana? Its not that I dont understand, I simply dont know. I dont have so many hindu scripts.
    Historically rdra and vishnu are loved by the people, so they made them more powerful, gave them aspects and skills of other deities ....


    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post


    2. Hindus write lIke tHiS for saMskRt pronunciation


    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, okay. That makes sense




    And finally: I read that the ancient vedic people did not speak out the name of rdra (that why I write it like that) but no one else does. Did THE VEDIC PEOPLE or not? Today its maybe different, but what did they ?
    Last edited by PestThurse; 14 October 2015 at 09:58 AM.

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