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Thread: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

  1. #11
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?


    India started getting weaker when Buddhism was adopted as state policy by Ashoka and the money which could have been used for technological advancement and scientific research was spent on spreading the message of Buddha. As the centre was no longer that strong, it led to disintegration of states and made India easy prey to Islamic invaders.
    Thank you devotee ji.

    I don't know much about Buddhism. All I understand is it emphasise more on Ahimsa.

    Japan was also a Buddhist majority. Wasn't it? But weren't they brutal in dealing their enemies
    Anirudh...

  2. #12
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,


    And the people of the majority group who speak up for their rights are labeled 'Hindu Nationalists', 'Saffron Brigade' and worse. The universalists among the Hindus sit on the sidelines and cheer the accusers. What a disgusting scenario!

    Pranam.
    Namaste EM ji and Believer ji

    It is because we are disillusioned. We don't know the glory of our past, even if we wish to know we dont have proper guidance.

    Centuries of slavery, deceit and subjugation has made us to fight among ourselves for the basics.

    I am slowly moving away from my original but its a natural progression.

    I am going to create a new thread. If members find my question worthy please share your views...
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste,

    The OP is complete nonsense. Please get your hands on the book called Asia and western dominance by K.M. panikkar. He explains how indian economy was more than 24% of the world GDP before the invasions began in 1400s where as England, Germany, France combined GDP was 6%.


    ‘Indiaas a land of Desire iced an essential element in general history. From themost ancient times downwards, all nations have directed their wishes andlongings to pining access to the treasures of this land of marvels, the mostcostly which the earth presents, treasures of nature - pearls, diamonds,perfumes, rose essences, lions, elephants, etc. - as also treasures of wisdom.The way by which these treasures have passed to the West has at all tinsbeen a matter of world historical importance bound up with the fate ofnations.’

    Spices which became moreand more an essential for European cookery could not be obtained exceptfrom India and Indonesia and must come through Persia or Egypt; thisindispensable and naturally monopolist trade came to be the chief bone ofcontention in the politics of the Levant and was the most powerful singlefactor in stimulating European expansion in the fifteenth century. The Tatarascendancy in Persia, before the conversion of the Ilkhanate to Islam,allowed Italian traders to go direct to India and cut prices against theEgyptians, who were wont to raise them 300 per cent as middlemenbetween India and Europe; as a result Europeans knew where spices wereproduced and at what cost, so that when they were again cut off from theIndian market by a hostile Islam and by incessant wars in the Levant, theywere well aware of the opportunities awaiting any Power that could find anew route to the “Indies where the spices grow”.’


    I have the pdf version of the book. Email or pm me if you want it. It is available on the Internet under free licence.
    satay

  4. #14
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Satay ji

    I can understand your post. Even I know INDIA wasn't poor before ISLAMIC invasion. If India was poor why would they invade ?

    Sadly we are told that ( including the text books printed by various state government of India) we are Kannadigas, Tamils, Maratis, Biharis etc etc. They also include a statement that we are Indians first but that statement is completely forgotten or not read at all. Even if read politics around resource sharing has created many countries with in a single district ....

    So we have Bimaru Gangetic plains, Aethist / Communist TN, Kerala, West Bengal etc etc.

    Not many know that people living in Northeast states like Manipur , Meghalaya, Sikkim etc are also Indians. For most of us Andaman & Nicobar is a tribal land.

    I raised this thread after reading and participating in "Does Britain owe Reparations to India"?

    This thread and "Use of Hindu ?" is my way of asking patriotic questions to fellow Indians.

    In case if it doesn't fall with in the rules of posting kindly delete them or take appropriate actions.

    Also Kindly send me the link of PDF you have mentioned in your post...

    Thanks in advance...
    Anirudh...

  5. #15

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Namaste deafAncient

    Do you think Indian philosophies especially the (pious) code of conduct limited Indians from saving their mother land. Then what is the use of them?

    There are many instances in Mahabharatha and Ramayana where the code of conduct was compromised according to the need of the hour. Do you think while dealing with Invaders, Indians wouldn't have changed their methods as per the situation ?

    I agree with your brutality of the invading force. But History says Invading forces made several attempts to capture India. Do you think India didn't get a MAN like chanakya after his death to unite Indian kings under one flag ?
    First question - my take on it is that they had forgotten the term "apad dharma" - sometimes you have to do things that are normally contraindicated under dharma. Being invaded or attacked is such a case.

    Second question - they would have changed their methods had they remembered the flexibility of their mindset - don't let the past determine the future. See what you're dealing with and come up with ways to deal with these new situations. Dharmic understanding of chaos and order is supposed to help with such situations, as Indians are more comfortable with situations that would drive non-dharmis nuts.

    Third question. I am not aware of who chanakya is, but yes, the Mughals still could not break Bhārata in the end, and what attracted them to Bhārata in the first place (considering the level of i-consciousness they had) was the unimaginable wealth that was just there for the taking when they invaded. This is the ONLY reason Muslims have some money like this (not including the money from oil sales) - they stole the money during those invasions. They were roaming the desert and too busy to survive to even learn how to find, dig up, and mint gold/silver coins. This means that even the first ones to start minting gold in Muslim countries couldn't come close to the volume already minted in Bhārata.


    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste,

    The OP is complete nonsense. Please get your hands on the book called Asia and western dominance by K.M. panikkar. He explains how indian economy was more than 24% of the world GDP before the invasions began in 1400s where as England, Germany, France combined GDP was 6%.
    I would second this book. Warning - it is a difficult read because of many of its hard-to-stomach details of the crimes and strategies, but you HAVE to read this book. It took me weeks of reading this book, and at times, I had to leave the book alone for a while. One example is the shutdown and theft of factories and shipping them to Britain (which is how the industrial revolution in Britain got started, after reverse-engineering the machinery!), leaving the Indians to farm and rough up raw materials for shipping to the British factories who needed the materials. This really devastated the Indian economy. India has never really recovered from it. This absolutely left me apoplectic. That's just one of many things reported in the book.

  6. #16

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste,

    I dont think any country was inherently poor before exploitation. I find it odd that people seem to think that the technological and industrial evolution is solely based on India, there is an interesting book call 1421 about how the Chinese brought the knowledge of industrial revolution to Europe and and started the Renaissance, I am sure many Hindus will claim that they taught the Chinese. But even today we can see how the Chinese are much more adapt at industry than most Asian countries. And how they have put their past behind them and rose to the challenge of the modern world. I would also say some study needs to be made about the Ottaman empire and maybe what the world would be like now if they had made the same advancements in the industrial revolution as Europe, it maybe a case of choosing between 2 evils, especially how within current world affairs capitalism is the ill of world peace.

    History is complex and its not all based on what happened and revolved around India alone, but using the example of China which has recovered from its own History of Invasions from Mongals and British are prospering but at the same time are keeping their national and ancient identity in the modern world, thats the challenge. I think rather than keep going back into history and blaming outside influence and invasion, which was more to do with invitations that went wrong one need only look at how the current Indian Government is inviting the latest invasion of culture with open arms in the form of pure capitalism and selling the soul of the country for profit. India needs to take a good long hard look at itself as well as blaming others.

    I went to Vrndavan this year first time in 10 years, and my first visit was in 93, in 93 Vrndavan was just a sleepy but bustling village and town, hardly any cars and it was not always easy to find accommodation unless one stayed in the in Ashrams, but gradually it has built up, with an economic boost from Westerners and a revitalized Delhi crowd coming to the Holy land, there is now the Yamuna express to help the money from Delhi get spent more easily to boost the local economy. Does the government care about the preservation of the Holy land and its original culture, or is it just purely about greed and profit at the expense of the ancient culture.

    Did the Indian government protect the Sadhus that lived for centuries on Vrndavan Parikrama Marg from the Delhi and Local Gundas from being killed and threatened to move for real estate purposes. I guess that was everyone elses fault apart from Indians.

    After having lived in Asia for 15 years and spent long periods both in China and India I really think India can look to China on how to adapt to living in the modern world but protecting its own culture. The future is in the hands of the present people, and while you have Modi who tries his best at the same time you have a government that is selling the soul of India to the highest bidder.

  7. #17

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Markandeya,

    Be very careful about applying the Chinese model to India. You might want to read http://www.bjp.org/about-the-party/p...egral-humanism to understand why to emulate the Chinese is not a good idea. You have to remember that communism is a Western rejection of the Christian capitalist society. Neither communism nor capitalism are viable long-term solutions. You have to remember that this is a very destructive, dangerous phenomenon arising simply out of Karl Marx’s reaction to religion. It was either the Church had full control, or it had none at all, not even existence in secular society. Karl Marx’s father was the first in his line to receive a secular education.

    Is either Communism or Capitalism a viable solution in the long run?

    Communism, no, because they have several problems. One infamous problem is that they don't know how to regulate production; just look at the excess mileage of roads and entire cities nobody is using, not to mention the level of pollution that is evident in major cities and in the country side, where the remaining farmers are beside MEGA super-fund-like sites, causing them deadly health problems. Another problem is the profile of the average person in a communist society. From a puruṣārtha standpoint, communism suppresses independent artha, kāma to what it deems “appropriate," and usually quashes down moksha, and dharma would be limited to “what is appropriate behavior of right or wrong according to the institution of the state.”

    Capitalism, no, because they also have several problems. This society tackles the “problem” of puruṣārtha in a different way, in that it fully supports artha (make as much money as you dream, if you can) and kāma (we want you to spend this money on mind-distracting things like TV, trips to Barbados, skiing trips, football games, anything to keep you from realizing what we’re doing to you by enslaving you as docile service workers), while being indifferent to dharma (just bang the bell on those futures contracts, as long as we don’t get caught). There is no moksha here, and they couldn’t care less about it because of their Christian concept of after-life, or in the case of atheists, nihilism.

    Both communism and capitalism don't have inner science to control their potential destructive behaviors in terms of manufacturing and treatment of living things within nature as civilized beings. Both are also wood-burning cultures that devastate employees, customers, and the environment. Both also don’t use inner science to look inward for solutions and grow their potential as conscious beings. They exist as “technically-adept brutes,” little above animals, but with the ability to think and speak. These kinds of people are particularly dangerous if you look at it this way, because they honestly don’t know the consequences of their actions, or if they do (as in the case of warfare technology like Agent Orange), they ignore or cover up the consequences as much as they can.

    Read this thread over here to understand India’s response to modern Western civilization. http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthr...roots-in-India

    China’s model doesn’t apply to India because it is a Western reaction to a Western problem, that of involvement of the church in state and daily affairs and of independent production/economic models in Capitalism by banning religion in society and nationalizing economics. This sounds a bit like secularization, doesn’t it? Secularization, as is the case in the US and much further in communism, is a Western solution to a Western problem because secularization is CAUSED by the western model of synthetic unity, meaning the uncomfortable kludging together of Western religion with Western science to form an inherently unstable union, a synthetic union, that constant tension between Church power, and National State and science.

    Dharmic civilization never had that problem to start with because of its integral unity. You have to realize that Anglo attempts to “secularize” India arises out of its misunderstanding of Sanātana Dharma (as mata, sampradāya, or pāntha) versus Dharma. Because of their own experiences and bias, they think that SD will do the same things to government and people that Christianity did. This is all based on a failure to look at dharmic culture from a level perspective and learning about how it functions, because Westerners feel threatened by Dharmic concepts that serve to take away the powers that the controllers have in Western civilization and goes directly up against their concept of how to live civilizationally within nature.

  8. #18

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste DA,

    China is not communist, it had an influence but its much closer to a totalitarian system that the Government adopts than Karl Marx socialism, it just an American View that China was communist, but Mao adopted certain principles for teh state to have central power with his great leap forward, which turned out having mixed results. There were obvious teething problems with what he applied but now its pretty well balanced and there is both freedom of religion and ecomonic growth. So your argument wouldnt have any basis from a Chinese perspective, I know I have spent long periods in China and they have not lost their ancient cultural identity, no mater how American always try to demonize and reduce their way of life to communism.

    But my main point is that China has survived and recovered and kept their cultural identity, and the government protects the interests of China as a identity rather than selling itself out purely for profit, which Indian government is very much involved in.

  9. #19

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    But my main point is that China has survived and recovered and kept their cultural identity, and the government protects the interests of China as a identity rather than selling itself out purely for profit, which Indian government is very much involved in.
    Namaste Markandeya,

    Point taken, and I have to wonder what Bhārata would have looked like under China's circumstances, from its Dharmic perspective.

    Praṇāma

  10. #20
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Markandeya,

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    China is not communist, it had an influence but its much closer to a totalitarian system that the Government adopts than Karl Marx socialism, it just an American View that China was communist, but Mao adopted certain principles for teh state to have central power with his great leap forward, which turned out having mixed results. There were obvious teething problems with what he applied but now its pretty well balanced and there is both freedom of religion and ecomonic growth. So your argument wouldnt have any basis from a Chinese perspective, I know I have spent long periods in China and they have not lost their ancient cultural identity, no mater how American always try to demonize and reduce their way of life to communism.

    But my main point is that China has survived and recovered and kept their cultural identity, and the government protects the interests of China as a identity rather than selling itself out purely for profit, which Indian government is very much involved in.
    Then you don't understand India and also China, imho. China can do Tiananmen square ... India can't think of it. What are you saying ? If it was was so simple, India would have done it much earlier. India's democracy is much more complicated that you can ever think of and that poses a number of questions which you don't count while suggesting such OTC remedies.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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