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Thread: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

  1. #21

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Devotee Ji,

    I dont understand why your bringing in Tiananmen square, what exactly is your point. But anyway I am not here to advertise the faults of China or India, I would be here all day if that was the case. Have you been to China, or do you only learn about China from the Internet. When one goes to China and speaks and lives with the people you will find a complete different dynamic, the projection of China from the outside and the reality is like day and night.

    Without going into the demographics of politics which is usually how to measure who is the most or least corrupt, I think its good to look at how the countries are adapting to modern life but at the same time keeping its own identity. I think China in this respect from a normal perspective rather than an intellectual and historical or even going in politics is that China is way ahead of India. Change cannot be avoided, and India is struggling vastly to come into the modern world. You wont see the stark poverty on the streets but it has a larger population, crime is less and people dont pass stool and urine where ever they stand, they have far more discipline and are not going around blaming everyone else but doing very little to change things.

    Like all countries it also has it problems, but it doesn't always sit around talking fancy philosophy above their realization and its a country that has galvanized itself and is in a state of repair and its done a great job if you ask me and can only go from strength to strength. And while China and the average Chinese person will complain about their government and foreign policies they usually end up doing something about it and the quality of life in China is always getting better. Its a country that went from stark poverty and just as much hardships as India but now sits on the largest $ bank reserve, and within a century is more or less a super power.

    If you compare Shanghai to Delhi there is absolutely no comparison, its centuries ahead, and while the cities are vastly more modern, even more than Cities in the west, there is a feeling of culture, and if you go to any normal home in China they will have a very good balance between modern and traditional aesthetic.

    While I agree that the dynamics and many other things are different between China and India and they can't be carbon copied there is much to learn from how the Chinese have dealt with coming into the modern world but remain their own power, when to me it just seems that India is all for show, the government says it wants to protect its own culture and identity but in the background is selling the values of what real India is to the highest bidder.

    Ask your average Chinese person what they think about foreign influence, most the time they will say they dont care about what the rest of the world is doing and what has done but how they react to the problem and their own sense of patriotism to their own country is far more important.

    http://fortune.com/2015/01/25/india-...xt-superpower/

    http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/what-...rn-from-china/

    https://www.quora.com/What-can-India...arn-from-India

    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/21/make-...rom-china.html

    Lets just look at one sector within India and compare it to China, the railway system. Does the Indian Railway system make a loss year after year. Now from my experience I first caught a train in India in 1993, my last was this year 2015, the only real change and upgrade of the trains is that people can now charge their mobile phones, and perhaps a few new engines which is probably done out of necessity rather than advancement, its still just as shabby as it was 22 years ago, and the train journey times are pretty much the same. What ever profits has been made has not been reinvested in the railways infrastructure, I guess that is an outside influence problem too. But any country knows just how important railway and road systems are for a healthy economy. India is not a poor country, it lack discipline and is absurdly corrupt.

    I worked for a few months with Buddhist in Bihar who were reaching out to the dalits, helping them with education and basic amenities just for survival. i know stories that would make any decent Indian hide his head in shame just how corrupt and exploitative Indians can be to their own people, its worse than barbaric.

    Then as followers of Dharma to different degrees how is the protection of Holy lands being preserved, the most sacred aspect of India, not very much in all honesty, the temples are run by Gundas far to often and corruption of the very thing that gives India its main identity is not checked. Jagganatha Puri is a mess if you ask me due to the tourist industry, are the temples aiding the well being of the economy , not to my knowledge. Sri Krsna is one of the most loved Gods in India, and the crown jewel of Vedic knowledge could well be the Bhagavad Gita, but is the holy land of Vrndavan being maintain as the most sacred place, even Mecca is more looked after than Vrndavan, Yamuna river is hot topic, which has been replaced with local sewer water, and the government will not let the real Yamuna takes its rightful path through Vrndavana unless it proves to be economically viable, how shameful is that. Again this is everyone else faults apart from Indians.

    As I say Indians need to take a good hard and long look at themselves and stop complaining about history as the only cause of its demise, the future is in the hands of Indians and nobody else, lets see what your made of.

    I hope nobody is offended by my post, as you say I know nothing.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 29 September 2015 at 05:51 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Markandeya,

    I hope you understand how administrative reforms take place politically and socially. However, from your post it appears that you don't.

    You have pointed all faults that India carries and has blamed the Indians for everything that is bad in this country. Right ? Dear friend from the west, when the entire Europe was in Dark Age, the same country was having working democracy. Your whole of Europe was dying to find a sea route to this country. And now, you find all dirty/filthy people in India and your sense of arrogance and hatred for this country is visible in the language that you have used.

    Dear friend, you have missed a very important point here. The Chinese don't have democracy and diversity that India has. In China, the way it has progressed to this position, it won't take much time to fall if the rule goes into wrong hands. In India, adopting any unethical / illegal route for copying technology is not easy. It is not easy to make harsh but economically sensible rules so easily. Today, China is under a rule which I will describe as benign dictatorship of one party. This style of governance gives quickest results as there is no opposition to whatever is to be implemented. This luxury is not available to India. However, China has a great danger, if the top leaders of the party who matter don't act in national interests but act at their whims and fancy. Again, there won't be any opposition. If there is an opposition, they won't hesitate to bring in even tanks to attack their people ... this is what they did in Tianamen Square.

    As far as corruption, China, not even a few decades back it was considered extremely corrupt. However, the corruption goes with economic prosperity. Economic prosperity helps in many ways and you see all changes that you see in China and not in India :

    a) People are paid handsomely and therefore, no longer need to be corrupt. Still there are some greedy people but their number is less and so, people develop robust systems that tackle corruption.
    b) You have money to invest to bring in good technologically advanced systems which doesn't allow corruption easily.
    c) You have money to spend on sanitation, education, civic amenities etc. and therefore, you see a clean country and well behaved people.

    ::
    ::

    It is true that you have got a chance to laugh at us today. This is just not our time. However, the only thing permanent in this universe is that nothing is permanent. Who knows what would come tomorrow. The Laws of Nature are not easily understandable.

    May you be happy ..

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #23

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Devotee Ji,

    Your taking fully the wrong way as usual, but as with all my post your always kind enough to say how little I know about anything.

    Lets make it simple

    India can no longer blame everyone else for its problems, the future is in its own hands. And as I expressed in one of your kind personal messages where you seem to care about what I post and say, I said very clearly that I would love to see India healthy, but if it is to be healthy materially and spirituality it needs to have a very good long hard look at itself, and to just keep blaming others is just another cop out and shifts the blame onto others. India could and should be a super power already, but why isn't it, corruption, and now that corruption is being masked by the old worn out excuse of foreign influence. If you dont get backing with that view then people are some how an enemy of India, perhaps your best critic is sometimes the best friend, but people would rather back the protagonist which only fuel things further, as a country that is highly intelligent I find it amazing how gullible people are or can be at the same time.

    Have you ever considered that always going back and blaming others is another mask for internal corruption. Example, India is a still a poor 3 world nation due to foreign influence, really how many intelligent people can still buy this. After the second world war, and India was also handed back its Independence most countries were in ruins and tatters, apart from America. Germany was split in two, Russia massacred its own people, the Jews were reduced to less than half their population, Japan was hit twice with an atomic bomb, China was in tatters. But almost all these mentioned have risen to the challenged and become modern countries with various benefits, although its stupid to say that everything is all good and dandy.

    Every country has corruption, no place is utopia, but saying that the above countries have also invested wisely in their own people, India is yet to do if you ask me, both materially and spiritually.

    India can be great again, no doubt about that, but is it up you to deal with facing the harsh conditions of a modern world.

    Lets see

  4. #24
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Markandeya,

    Did I blame foreigners for our condition today ? Please show me where I did. You don't read my posts with patience and then go on writing the same thing again and again !!

    What I trying to tell you is that India cannot change as fast as China did. It is not possible. It is not because what you are writing and putting us to shame by mentioning "corruption" as the only thing that hampers our growth today. It is not. "Corruption" is just one element and it cannot be just wished away. You cannot wish that all the corrupt people of India become saints overnight ! It is not done that way.

    You have to appreciate that there are many factors which must be tackled simultaneously at different fronts. China too was a very corrupt country not so long ago. Japan was not so ethical country in the late 60's and early '70s. Japan shamelessly copied technology violating copyrights and exporting low quality products at low costs and amassed foreign exchange. This too is what China did.

    I am not blaming others for our problems. I am not that type of a person. However, I have the experience and knowledge to say with authority that it is not as easy as you have painted. We need some political luck and some strong social movement ... may be the time is ripe for that.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #25

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Devotee Ji,

    I was talking in general about what the vast majority of Hindus think and say, go to any site where Hinduism and the state of India is being spoken about and the general comments is that its everyone else fault and keep using the same rhetoric and it becomes tiring to hear the same excuses again and again without due focus on internal affairs. My comments are direct but also general, and I didn't want to get into a point by point discussion, that usually ends up being tedious and I become bored quite quickly. So my comments are for a short sharp shock effect, everyone can fill in the details as they see fit.

    I am not saying I agree or disagree with everything you have wrote, there are always lots of shades of grey in everything we look at at study, and most of the grey areas are impossible to define accurately due to living in dualistic world, where there is always a counter argument on almost every single thing, it cant be avoided, thats why I said to you I only go so far in these types of topics, people will always see things from a slightly and often greatly different angle.

    I will stick with admiring parts of the Chinese long term plan, will it fully work out, who knows because as you say things are in constant change, if there was not a global economic melt down who knows how powerful China would be now, so there are always external attacks on every nation, its not just India, every single country is fighting for its survival, the world is still at war, its not always military. If there was one nation that I would want to prosper and see its full potential that would be India because it has so much to offer. But if it took the same attitude of China and ignore what others think or do then India will be an inspired nation rather than a wounded animal.

  6. #26
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    ... and btw, if I am not wrong, you are from Britain, right ? You are saying that we are corrupt and filthy and what not ? You are from the same country which shamelessly looted us ? Now, you have no shame in calling us corrupt, filthy and poor just because you have looted the whole world and India and amassed wealth for the whole of 17th to 20th century ? We are bad because we didn't go into any other country's territory and looted them ... because we didn't cripple any other country's economy that your country did ... because we didn't exploit human beings the way your country did ?

    You are teaching us lessons on how to become prosperous by abandoning corruption because we are the most corrupt country that you have seen ? You are giving example of China but you have forgotten that China was never enslaved by any country the way your country enslaved ours. You have forgotten that Japan was already a developed country when the bomb was dropped on her cities.

    This is your country which allowed Jalianwala Bagh killing thousands of helpless innocent unarmed people including women and children. It was your country which imposed 400% on indigenous goods to force Indians to buy your factory-produced goods. It was your country which made our caste-divide so deeper that we are paying even today for that. It was your country which was responsible for encouraging Muslim groups who wanted partition of India in spite of the fact that in the elections, those parties didn't get majority even in those states where Muslims were in majority. It was solely your country who was responsible for creation of Pakistan for which the whole world is paying in form of terrorism and may be future nuclear war. It was your country which made mockery of judiciary system while ruling India. It was your country who played all dirty tricks to keep our nation enslaved for the whole century.

    You should remember the above when you start preaching us. Yes, we fully know that it is only we who can change our state. It is only we who have to fight evils of poverty, corruption and dirtiness. We will do it. Don't have a doubt on it.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #27

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    I think you went off the rails there

  8. #28
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    I think you went off the rails there
    Yes. And the reason was that you were blaming us for all the evils we are facing today. You were not listening that we have conditions much different from China and Japan that you are mentioning.

    My Dear friend, the corruption, the filth, the mismanagement that you see in this country are product of poverty that we faced for centuries because of English rule. You have not seen what poverty means. You don't know what hunger means. in 1934, when thousands of people were dying of hunger in Bengal, your Queen had said, "If they don't have bread to eat, why don't they eat cake ?" ! This is how much the English empire cared for India and the Indian people.

    I will give you an example. Suppose in a family the only bread earner is the husband. You kill the husband. Due to poverty arising out of this act, the poor wife is forced to beg and take to prostitution to feed her children which is bad. This is poverty. Poverty teaches you to become corrupt and forces you to live in filth. A hungry man cannot care for his preserving his heritage if his stomach is not full.

    ***************
    What I wanted to say that India's situation is complicated. The solution you are giving is naive. The examples you are giving are not in order. We are facing the problems of Casteism, illiteracy, pressures of different ethnic groups, funds unavailability for spurring growth etc. ... and our democracy doesn't allow us to steal technologies so easily, to supply inferior goods so easily to those countries ... on the other hand, we are facing immature and corrupt political system which thrives more on dividing and ruling as British did than doing really good for the masses. We have laggard and inefficient judiciary and Police system that we inherited from the British empire.

    We need massive electoral reforms and other reforms. We need to be lucky so that a good party wins election and stays in power for at least a decade or so. As the economic prosperity comes, all evils which have arisen due to poverty will slowly go away.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #29

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Devotee,

    For someone so advanced in spiritual understanding you havent learned to control your emotions. I havent seen poverty, in fact I have worked with poverty in India, I dedicated years of my life raising funds to help India at the expense of my own circumstances. I could tell you some things that would make you weep, both in my own personal upbringing and from what I have seen and grown up in and around, but there is always people worse off than me, I guess thats why I dedicated most of my prime life in helping people, both in India and Africa, when was the last time most middle class people who purport all this propaganda ever given any need to the poor in India. But I am not here to argue who is best, but merely to say stop blaming outside influence, Its like if us British kept blaming the Romans, Saxons French, but most of us have grown up a long time ago, every country has its history and dark patches too, I doubt many know the full facts of British History let alone European history. I didnt say all India is dirty thats your lack of honesty and emotional control, I am just being objective and I am relaxed, and I dont associate myself as being British, I will leave you to do that. I have more Indian friends who are like family and have said and listen to them say the same thing as what I am saying, but in real life it comes across better. Ask any man in the street what the problem is in India.

  10. #30
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Markandeya,

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    For someone so advanced in spiritual understanding you havent learned to control your emotions. I havent seen poverty, in fact I have worked with poverty in India, I dedicated years of my life raising funds to help India at the expense of my own circumstances. I could tell you some things that would make you weep, both in my own personal upbringing and from what I have seen and grown up in and around, but there is always people worse off than me, I guess thats why I dedicated most of my prime life in helping people, both in India and Africa, when was the last time most middle class people who purport all this propaganda ever given any need to the poor in India. But I am not here to argue who is best, but merely to say stop blaming outside influence, Its like if us British kept blaming the Romans, Saxons French, but most of us have grown up a long time ago, every country has its history and dark patches too, I doubt many know the full facts of British History let alone European history. I didnt say all India is dirty thats your lack of honesty and emotional control, I am just being objective and I am relaxed, and I dont associate myself as being British, I will leave you to do that. I have more Indian friends who are like family and have said and listen to them say the same thing as what I am saying, but in real life it comes across better. Ask any man in the street what the problem is in India.
    You are relaxed and I can't control my emotions. Right ?

    You don't see anything wrong in whatever you wrote ? Did you read what I wrote about the ills and the remedies ? When did you find me saying that anyone else but Indians do have to work for themselves ? ... and for your help in alleviating poverty in India ... thank you very much. But it doesn't say high of you when you don't understand India in spite of all the time you spent in India. How can you compare China's situation with that of India's ? That shows that you are not aware of the reality of the ground situation.

    Just because you have worked in India doesn't mean that you understand the nuances behind its poverty and its difficulties. You don't become an expert by just doing some humanitarian work. I also keep donating for the poor and yes, that includes people of other poor countries too. But I don't go to those countrymen and tell them that I know what ails their country and blame them for everything whatever is wrong there in their country. .... and then tell them how much relaxed I am.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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