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Thread: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

  1. #31

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Devotee,

    I didnt say you have to compare the situation of India and China, I did say you cant carbon copy, and I said India can learn some things from China, there is a difference. You stuck in your view which doesn't reflect what I am saying or my experience. That I cant and have no interest in changing.

    Why do you keep centering yourself around this whole discussion, as I said if you would read "these are general comments and others can fill in the details"

    i should have known better than to engage in a discussion with God himself

    Yu kept blaming me as a British person for all the atrocities of India, considering I was born in 1970 doesnt really make sense. But I will lay down a challenge, get your top lawyer in India to take me to court and lets see if he wins. My work in India was not just humanitarian, and it wasnt about giving lose change that I could afford to any project that ultimately was to help others more than myself. Your gonna have to back down right from your initial post and many others where you take the superior role. Ok I am not Indian, why on earth would I want to be, there is something much more profound than becoming Indian or any worldly identity, but it doesn't mean I cant understand things just because it doesn't fit into your view. My point is simple, stop blaming outside influence, it will further spurn the hidden corruption that poor people are still the victims at the hands of evil and corrupt leaders of India, and that was even before Islam Invaded. If there is honesty facing up to anyone's own history then I would consider them as a man of integrity fit to comment. I hate what the British have done, the ones who have caused suffering to others are demoniac, and the Indians that exploit and and keep others in poverty under horrendous conditions are also demons, and this goes to some of the people who run temples amass wealth and give nothing back. Obviously some Indians are going to react what I am saying, but so be it, I care not. But what I do care about more than one single nation is that people have personal integrity and honesty, even if it means getting a bit of dirt on their faces, including me.

    I will add another fact, India is not known now for its great Spiritual culture, even western Neo Advaitins want to distance themself from Indian culture, simple because there is so much shame involved due to caste systems and other things and recently India has been claimed to be the most racist country in the world. Do you think people who aspire the way of Sadhu's will want to identify to strongly with contemporary India. Attachment breeds contempt.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 29 September 2015 at 11:22 AM.

  2. #32
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Dear Markandeya,

    I still feel, you could have said things in some better chosen words. Anyway, it doesn't seem you see anything wrong in how you said everything in this thread. May be I am wrong.

    Let's put a full stop to this discussion ... at least from my side.

    BTW, if you see me as God and you see yourself as a human being and not as God .... then there is mistake of point of reference. ... but that we can discuss some other time.

    Sorry, if anything I said, hurt you.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #33

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Devotee jI,

    Nothing you have said has hurt me, and I have said many times I would love to see India in its glory. I am still basing most of my observations of seeing how India has changed over the last 25 years. I don't see things have improved, especially around the Holy places, yes some mod cons and some of the cities in certain areas look more presentable, but I cant say with any confidence that it has got any better. Its way past the time to keep digging up history and blaming others. It seems you took offence about the passing in the street, but its a fact, and discipline is a problem in India, and that was in reference to China and how they adapt an organised society with a larger population, something can be learned from outside structures, not copied but learned, that was my point. And it seems Modi and India have recognized this also with the links I posted above.

    I am not saying people are to blame, but lack of good investment in education is part of it. Once any country learns that a fully healthy society is to invest in its own people then any country can make great advancements, but most countries are about exploitation rather than cultivation. While I would have loved to see how India would have progressed if Nalanda university was not destroyed totally and solely by the Turks, but there are accounts that the Sramanas played a role and also according to some sources sectarian battles between Hinayanist and Mahayanist. What is the exact truth only God knows, as history is so perverted and twisted its almost becoming impossible to be fully objective, apart from obvious facts, and having a interest in History the main thing I have learned is that there is not one reliable source, and even if that source is fairly reliable it still holds bias. I recently read a book on Hsuan-tsang journey to India to find the real teachings of Buddha, which was not known as Buddhism but Dharma Shastra, which were wide and varied and covered all aspect of learning and knowledge. He paints a great picture of India and spoke mostly how the Brahmins and Buddhist of the time lived well together and integrated their ideals and understanding, but they also kept their distance and some parts were not recorded due to sectarian tension which he said was not described due to not being of benefit for future reading. So while India was great spiritually and materially it also had problems, but the problems are always it seems nowadays coming solely from outside influence, I think it doesnt help, and to project an ideal of the past does not always suit the present.

    I was being sarcastic about the God thing, yes I am simultaneously human and not human at the same time, through Prakriti I will understand the absolute truth, not by imagination.

  4. #34
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    I will add another fact, India is not known now for its great Spiritual culture, even western Neo Advaitins want to distance themself from Indian culture, simple because there is so much shame involved due to caste systems and other things and recently India has been claimed to be the most racist country in the world. Do you think people who aspire the way of Sadhu's will want to identify to strongly with contemporary India. Attachment breeds contempt.
    You could have done better if you had not vomited this poison against India and Indians. You have lost my respect.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #35
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Markandeya,

    I am disappointed with your so demeaning statements against us Indians. This can be said about any country and any race by taking stray examples. India is not only internet-active-group of Indians. Never make a mistake of making strong opinion about any country or ethnic race by taking small samples of some groups. Indians have no time to keep blaming British for all its faults. However, once the discussion starts, all these things which are the fact, have to come to surface.

    You have blamed Indians for all its faults. My dear friend, a human being born in USA / UK or India have same basic traits. They don't become as they are just because they are Indians or British. There are social, economical and political reasons behind what they become. The bad habits of Indians and corruption, casteism etc. that you mentioned do exist in India. However, you have to go deeper to understand why it is there in first place. Your remedies, "Be disciplined", "Become honest" ... are too simplistic. If these maladies were in your country, even your countrymen could not have done anything with these remedies.

    How many in India have time to blame British for their ills ? I can understand your problem because I have worked with NGOs of the western countries in Afghanistan and I know what superiority complex they carry for nothing, though I did get many good westerner friends while working there. I think you carry a lot of superiority complex due to your place of birth. ... and that makes me wonder, why did you choose NGO working for poor ? You could have done better in some other fields.

    If you really don't understand why these maladies are there or how they arise in any society, tell me. I will certainly explain to you in details how this all works.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #36

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Devotee,

    Who said I worked for NGO's, I was a Brahmacari doing seva in India. Ok India is not corrupt. Everyone is a Sadhu, there isnt any problem. There is no corruption in Bihar state and Dalits are treated as equal citizens. I was really impressed that in Holy Dhams such as Vrndavan, Puri that the government is maintaining the holy sites with reverence and giving it the due respect that the ancient civilization deserves. Ganga Ma is as pure as it was 5000 years ago, and Cow killing and dumping toxic waste into Her is non existent.

    I did Char Dham yatra this year, 2 years after the devastation. Go and talk to the locals about pilgrims and investors that have destroyed the environment up there. Do some research how much of mess that area became before the devastation. Ask the question why when the devastation happened that non of the main temples were damaged, even a rock fell to protect the mandir at Kedanatha, go and talk with the locals, how they feel that their living space was turned into a tourist industry and how that amazing area was used a dumping site for litter and the devastation was cleaning act of Shiva. Thats what they think. And how they say the Government did nothing to preserve their culture and way of life. This is what Indian people say them selves I am just repeating their comments. Why is it that so many states in India want to be independent from central government. I guess thats my opinion too. This is thread to discuss why India still has the demoniac levels of poverty that still exist today, and it doesn't have everything to do with foreign influence. And for all the profits that the government make do they fairly invest them back into mainstream. India is not a poor country, its certainly crippled after the British and Islamic, but the next undenying fact which still exists today is mass hoarding of wealth by corruption, which is probably having and had just as much devastating effect.


    Go and talk with Sadhus in Haridwar where there was an ancient rule that Muslims were only allowed to visit in the day to trade, but the government does not hold or preserve the same rights for the Dham and Hindus and Muslims can take residence there, not protecting an ancient religious right.

    I don't blame the average person in India, in fact the majority of Indian people are good and just have to suffer again due to demoniac leaders in power and the most twisted forms of bureaucracy which is based solely on corruption and deception.

    To be honest I have had a very braod experience in India, I seen and experienced and witnessed and joined in coversations on so many levels, I have had prasadam with Raj of Jaipur, been invited to the government residence of Manipur, and also had the pleasure of meeting the main diplomat local of Manipur, I know many things about how the government does not respect the culture and human rights of people. I have sat and shared food with Dalits in Bihar who not even given enough basic human necessities, and how government officials have pocketed massive sums of money that should have been used to build roads schools and hospitals, because the poor people just dont matter.

    Go to Gujarat and Sikhim and ask how the government totally destroyed their agriculture way of life, what about the GMO disaster for the farmers,that was everyone else's fault to, people being kicked mercilessly off their lands so factories can be built. If anything I would be talking about and giving a voice to the people who have no voice, who are not even treated as humans by their own people.

    Weather you have respect for my comments or me is immaterial.

    BTW if I was to talk about the British colonial rule I am worse, it was a total demoniac rule, not just in India but where ever they went, what they did in Africa and America, how Burma is still in a state of ruination to this day because of the divide they caused. The list just goes on how demoniac that rule that was, and how it destroyed the natural equilibrium of ancient Britain which the cause was also foreign invasion.

    I will just one more thing, look at Bollywood and the amount of wealth it has created, giving those people this high line of material opulence, turn the corner and you will see children and people who have been forced into the city due to neglect of agriculture dynamic of India and have to face pure and disgusting levels of poverty. Are the rich helping, talk to them, if they had there way they would just kill them off given half the chance, their is very little empathy by the rich for the desperate poor people.

    http://www.poverties.org/poverty-in-india.html
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 30 September 2015 at 04:12 AM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Markandeya,

    Please stop saying, "Go here and ask there" ... I am a native Indian. You are talking as if I am a foreigner to my own country ! I have not only traveled to different parts of India ... I have stayed in different parts of India for years together.

    The problems are there. Who said that problems are not there ? However, is this what you should say :

    Quote Originally Posted by Markandeya
    will add another fact, India is not known now for its great Spiritual culture, even western Neo Advaitins want to distance themself from Indian culture, simple because there is so much shame involved due to caste systems and other things and recently India has been claimed to be the most racist country in the world. Do you think people who aspire the way of Sadhu's will want to identify to strongly with contemporary India. Attachment breeds contempt.


    You are making sweeping remarks : "India is not known for its spiritual culture ... Neo Advaitins want to distance themselves from Indian culture .... India has been claimed to be most racist country ..."

    Is this the way you strike a cordial relation with an Indian whom you want to help ? You say that you are a SAdhu. I don't expect a Sadhu to make such sweeping and demeaning remarks against the whole country.

    And you are comparing this country with China and Japan who were never enslaved ? Yes, there is dirtiness in my country. Many politicians and bureaucrats are corrupt. But do you think that we enjoy keeping ourselves dirty ? Just because we are not disciplined ? This is what you want to say ? Do you think that India was like this all along ? Why do you think India became what it is today and why England became what it is today ?

    India has made a lot of steady progress and in the course of time, we will overcome other issues too as you have mentioned :

    a) I was born in 1960. I have seen the drought and deaths when I was a child. India is now self sufficient in food grains.
    b) The caste discrimination which prevailed during 1960-70 is no longer seen today. There are strong laws to deal with any discrimination based on caste. Yes, in this vast country, some isolated incidents keep happening which will also be eliminated once we are able to implement Judicial and Police reforms. In fact, now this country is facing reverse discrimination against so-called forward castes as their representation in Govt Jobs and colleges are dropping drastically.
    c) Corruption has been controlled to a great extent in last a few years ... thanks to RTI and Lokpal Bill. However, unless the people are educated, they won't be able to assert their rights and corruption in some form cannot be eliminated till then. We need heavy investment in education to ensure that.
    d) Filth and dirt in India is not just because of indiscipline. I have been actively involved in Modiji's cleanliness drives with volunteers of more than 600 people with me at different times. However, unless there are enough funds and investments in disposal of solid waste / sewerage system, it cannot be tackled. It needs thousands of Crores of rupees.
    e) Regarding cleaning the Ganges - This is related with treatment plants of waste and sewer water ... disposal of solid waste system and relocating industries based on the sides of this river. It is not due to corruption or indiscipline alone. It cannot be done unless huge sum of money is invested in solid disposal system and relocating the industries. However, already steps have been taken to do just that. Laws are being made to punish the people who carelessly throw garbage into this river.
    f) Devastation in Uttarakhand in Kedarnath and adjoining areas --- You keep learning from new experiences. Who knew that this would happen ? Moreover, in Uttarakhand, the government is of the people of hills. They know the nature of hills much better than any average India living in planes. It was their duty to take care that indiscriminate commercial exploitation of the place is not allowed.
    g) Regarding discrimination against Hindu places of worship --- This bane hurts all the Hindus. However, slowly the Hindus are raising voice ... that thankfully, includes your voice too. Unless we are united such discrimination will be there because here the vote bank politics exists. Due their apathy towards Hindu cause, the Congress has been routed in the last elections. Moreover, we should not depend upon government only for all our problems. Hindus must realise why their places of worship are dirty and not well maintained. Government has taken care in Vaishno Devi, Tirupati shrines and these places are much better administered. The government must slowly abolish Panda system which is the root cause behind total mismanagement of important religious places.

    I can write pages after pages what ails this country and how to set it right and what has been done till now. Rest assured. We are making progress in the right direction. The reason behind most of the problems is poverty ... it is the mother of most of the problems we are facing today. I am hopeful that I will be able to see India in a respectable position within my lifetime.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  8. #38

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Devotee

    Enough is enough, you missed the point, I only said once that in India and not China people pass in the street where they stand, and put in down to people not being disciplined or educated, and then put that down to corruption in your country, when usually to many people seem more comfortable blaming everyone else, but when just a slight critical comment comes your way its an obscene offence, its you who keeps repeating dirty again and again. No China was never enslaved, never had a problem ever, I suppose they all enjoyed just being stoned on opium, and losing millions in the cultural revolution, but they recovered and it will get stronger and would be stronger if not for economic warfare by the west. in fact no other country in the world knows any pain other than India. All I stated was at the start that India could learn something from China, it went ok as I was going to explain more, but then you came in and said I know nothing ( as usual) and only you know it all, so I retract everything I said as imagination and lets just listen to you and how India was great in the times of Maharaja Parikshit. You just love tit for tat. Anyway the last website I posted just about says it all. You tried to defame me, thats normal, seen it many times from people like you, but let the facts deal with themselves. Maybe I know India better than you because I dont associate myself with any country.
    Hare Krsna

    Where did I say I was a Sadhu

    If you like a I can post the report about how India is known as the most racist country, you want to come into the modern world, long way to go Ji. Indians abroad are a shining example of the culture and success, the good people want out and the demoniac just want to exploit fill their pockets and blame outside influence for its current state of affairs.

  9. #39
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    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    This is what your culture has taught, Markandeya ? Please read your posts and my posts carefully if you have any sense of a civilised person.

    Good bye !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #40

    Re: Was India poor before Islamic Invasions?

    Namaste Devotee

    My culture, your culture, not once did I personally insult you, and apparently I am the one who has a superiority complex

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