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Thread: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

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    The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    Namastey Everyone,

    This PDF http://www.mediafire.com/view/wvcbz3..._Rudraksha.pdf mentions the below lines:

    When Shiva and Shakti are separated into a duality of chit and sat- consciousness and manifest existence or matter (subject and object), the universe of different planes of existence comes into being.

    These lines are so deep. Can anyone please elaborate more on this. I want to know more on the truth explained in this PDF.

    ~Hari Om

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    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    A few ideas for your kind consideration…

    We know ( are told by the wise) that śiva and śakti are one. We are told there are 2 so we can comprehend,
    reflect, get a hold on the idea. This one is parama-śiva. Yet for us we use 2 , for understanding. It is like a flame –
    the light and its heat are one and the same , but we separate the two to compare-and-contrast,
    yet there is one. So, lets click down one more level.

    This śiva is considered prakāśa ( light, luster ) – pure Being, some call pure Awareness; śakti is called vimarśa.
    Vimarśa means the ability to inspect, examine, to perceive one’s own Being (śiva being Self-aware). So śiva in-and-of-Himself has Self-Awareness;
    the ability to examine be aware of pure Awareness or itSelf. Being, parama-śiva, is aware of Itself. It is Pure Consciousness this is lively ( spanda).

    Let’s look at one part of your question. You mention,

    When Shiva and Shakti are separated into a duality
    Who could possibly do such a thing? How is this even possible? The only one that could do this is none other than the Supreme by his
    own will, this is called svatantra śakti – completely independent will of energy of His own Being. This will is none other than a form of His own śakti.

    So, it is He that throttles down into this field of things. In fact, this is not the proper way of saying it with precision. Everything occurs within this Being,
    nothing is outside of the Supreme. That is why the wise always associate wholeness to this Being… it is so full so complete, nothing is outside of it.
    It is impossible to think of any process, thing, idea, action or non-action out side of this Being as all things are contained in Him.

    We think there is some ‘creative’ process that occurred outside of Being, that some dual thing occurred – the Supreme and His/Her creation, yet
    this is not the final fact. Being outside of this parama-śiva – it looks like it no doubt, yet it all occurs within Being or the Supreme. This takes some time,
    and multiple ways of saying it, understanding it, but it comes with time and attention to the knowledge.

    So, for us to comprehend the world and universe around us , we learn there are 36 tattva-s to this whole level of everything seen and unseen.
    Some schools count less than 36 and that is fine; Yet it starts with perfect Being, perfect pure awareness and then descends ( by His own free will)
    all the way down ( really into) earth ( prithvī) that is part of the 5 mahābhuta-s we see around us – earth, water ( fluid), fire , air, and space (ākāśa).
    Yet these things are not separate from the Supreme, they are just the Supreme throttled down into boundaries. Yet all this occurs within Him
    not outside ( This too is corroborated in the bhāgavad gītā¹).

    Getting these ideas squared away in one’s mind is a good place then to address your question in full.

    iti śivaṁ

    1. bhāgavad gītā , chapter 9 , 8th śloka:

    prakṛtim svām avastabhya
    visrjami punaḥ punaḥ |
    bhūta-grāmam imaṁ kṛtsnam
    avaśaṁ prakṛter vaśāt || 8

    This says, curving back (leaning, resting-upon or avaṣṭabhya) onto my SELF (svām) I create (visṛjāmi) again and again (punaḥ punaḥ).
    All this (kṛtsnam) which exists ( manifestation and variety bhūta-grāmam) , that comes into creation (prakṛti) is done by my authority or command (vaśāt).

    ye caiva sāttvikā bhāvā rājasāstāmasāśca ye|
    mattaḥ eveti tānviddhi na tvahaṁ teṣu te mayi||12

    This says,
    All those states of being, states of existence (bhāvā) ( the 3 gua-s) sāttvikā, rājasās & tāmasāśca
    know that (tānviddhi) they truly, in this manner (eveti) come from me (mattaḥ);
    they are in me but I not in them (na tvahaṁ teṣu te mayi).
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    Ok. Thankyou Yajvan ji. I have lot of things to know more ahead.

    ~Hari Om

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    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    This Being ( for many, but not all) is the view of īśvarādvaya darśana – the school/vision that all is the Supreme; that is, there is nothing other than the Supreme.

    People then say, oh yes, I see this point - there is me and (then there is) everything else from perfect space, to light waves, to cosmic rays to thoughts and emotions and ______
    ( fill in the blank)
    it is all Supreme. This is still off the mark. It means you too are nothing less than That. This comes with delight and with responsibilities.

    Yet this view is not for everyone… abhinavagupta-ji says it this way:
    A black bee alone becomes intensely fond of the sweet fragrance of the ketaki flower
    but the honey bee does not. Only some having been set in motion by the Almighty
    though his grace develops interest in the utterly non-dual worship of His all-inclusive
    aspect, parama-bhairava
    . || tantraloka 4.276


    Last edited by yajvan; 15 December 2015 at 07:08 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    This Being ( for many, but not all) is the view of īśvarādvaya darśana – the school/vision that all is the Supreme; that is, there is nothing other than the Supreme.

    People then say, oh yes, I see this point - there is me and (then there is) everything else from perfect space, to light waves, to cosmic rays to thoughts and emotions and ______
    ( fill in the blank)
    it is all Supreme. This is still off the mark. It means you too are nothing less than That. This comes with delight and with responsibilities.

    Yet this view is not for everyone… abhinavagupta-ji says it this way:
    A black bee alone becomes intensely fond of the sweet fragrance of the ketaki flower
    but the honey bee does not. Only some having been set in motion by the Almighty
    though his grace develops interest in the utterly non-dual worship of His all-inclusive
    aspect, parama-bhairava
    . || tantraloka 4.276


    Namastey yajvan,

    I really appreciate your views.
    Chakra Healing with RRST!!!

  6. #6

    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    OM Namaah Shivay,

    I just want to know more about Lord Shiva.

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    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramnayar View Post
    OM Namaah Shivay,

    I just want to know more about Lord Shiva.
    Hari OM Ramnayar,


    Lord Shiva is one of the supreme deities in Hinduism, he is also known as Mahadeva (devo k dev ). As per shaivism he is the greatest gods which is limitless and formless. MahaShivaratri is also said to be great night of Shiva. So celebrate this MahaShivaratri 2016 by worshiping him.
    Chakra Healing with RRST!!!

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    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramnayar View Post
    OM Namaah Shivay,

    I just want to know more about Lord Shiva.
    Vannakkam Ramnayer

    The sects and groups of Hindus have differing views on Siva. Saivas have one view. Smartas with Siva as their ishta will be similar yet different. Shaktas will vary again, as will Vaishnavites. So learning about Shiva will be a daunting task on the intellect, because there will be many opposing views. Maybe if you already have a sectarian outlook from childhood, and shared that with us, it could be useful. Mystically, through meditation on His form is another approach. best wishes.

    Aum namasivaya

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    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramnayar View Post
    OM Namaah Shivay,

    I just want to know more about Lord Shiva.

    Then just know more of your SELF (Being, Presence) ... it is one and the same as Him.
    He hid Himself in such a place where no one looks. In each and every being...
    We are all looking outward and He is no further than one's own core Being.

    But what do I do to find Him? Be perfectly still, be silent. This is not the silence of not talking ( that is pretending/practicing to be silent).
    But where do I find this silence ? Between any 2 thoughts, between wake-dream-sleep. Just before Awakening in the morning or
    just before dozing off into sleep. There is that ~twilight~ level of awareness. There is the entrance ( so say the wise).
    We create this condition for entry when we meditate .. this ~silence~ is called turiya or the 4th.

    Why the 4th? Why call it that ? Because we say Wake-dream-sleep is 1,2,3 and what follows is the 4th ( silence) .
    Yet this 4th is there all the time. We are so busy doing, acting, thinking, wanting, going and coming we pass up the 4th all the time.
    The mind is in 1st gear all the time ( waking), then when it shifts to 2nd gear it is dreaming and still 'doing'. This doing is now
    running, or flying, or pretending to be something that we are not, but it is still engaged in more doing.
    We get to the 3rd gear (sleep) and there is nothing that we are aware of. We miss the experience of that deep silence of sleep.
    So, this 4th is a bit different - it is restful, but we are alert. We are alert but aware of the silence. This is where we wish to
    go - restfully alert. This is where we wish to be groomed. This is were we will find the entry point to pure awareness that is HIM.

    iti śivaṁ




    Last edited by yajvan; 09 February 2016 at 11:50 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #10
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    Re: The formless truth of Lord Shiva

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    There is the entrance ( so say the wise).
    We create this condition for entry when we meditate .. this ~silence~ is called turiya or the 4th.

    Why the 4th? Why call it that ? Because we say Wake-dream-sleep is 1,2,3 and what follows is the 4th ( silence) .
    Yet this 4th is there all the time. We are so busy doing, acting, thinking, wanting, going and coming we pass up the 4th all the time.
    The mind is in 1st gear all the time ( waking), then when it shifts to 2nd gear it is dreaming and still 'doing'. This doing is now
    running, or flying, or pretending to be something that we are not, but it is still engaged in more doing.
    We get to the 3rd gear (sleep) and there is nothing that we are aware of. We miss the experience of that deep silence of sleep.
    So, this 4th is a bit different - it is restful, but we are alert. We are alert but aware of the silence. This is where we wish to
    go - restfully alert. This is where we wish to be groomed. This is were we will find the entry point to pure awareness that is HIM.
    What is this pure awareness I mention? Let me see if I can frame it properly for one's appreciation.

    Pure awareness is undifferentiated consciousness. It is whole, non-fractionalized, stainless , without blemish. Let's contrast that with differentiated consciousness.
    With differentiated awareness (consciousness) there is a subject and an object of experience. Think of all the experiences you have every day, every hour. Even now while reading
    this your intellect is engaged, your nose may smell something, your ears may hear some traffic or a dog barking.

    Even if you stop and sit, there is stream of thoughts that are going on without your request. All this is differentiated awareness... one's awareness is engaged
    in all different things, it is experiencing the world as presented by the senses, the intellect and the like.
    So , with undifferentiated awareness this does not occur.
    It is whole, perfectly balanced, stainless i.e. without differences.


    Then one says - oh yes, I want to experience that. Here is the pickle. If 'you' want to experience it , then there is '2' and that is now
    differentiated awareness 'you' and this pure awareness you wish to make as an object to inspect. See the point ? With Undifferentiated awareness
    there is no '2'. The point is, and this is where many get a brain cramp - this undifferentiated = the 'you' I just mentioned. It is the final experiencer,
    it is the SELF I have mentioned again and again. It takes some time to get use to this. Yet to say it is the ~experiencer~ also
    gets people confused... the wise use that term. Another is it is the final observer. That I think helps people more.

    Lets go a little further
    The wise have called this pure and impure. Pure is undifferentiated awareness and differentiated awareness = impure. But do not get mis-informed here.
    Impure means awareness that is co-mingled with objects of experience. It
    is the pieces of dust in pure milk that is on the surface. Impure has been
    translated as 'bad' - this is not the case here. It , in the use by this writer,
    means awareness co-mingled with objects like smell, thoughts, sight, touch,
    all those things that provide input and information or experience gathering.

    A bit finer now in understanding
    pure awareness = samādhi ( and sa
    dhī)


    • sa = name of viṣṇu or śiva; it is also another name ( neuter gender) for meditation and for knowledge;
      • it is rooted (√) in san which = procuring , bestowing

    • mā = to measure out ( among other possible definitions)
    • dhi = to hold, to delight, to nourish. It is worthy of note that dhī ( now used in the feminine gender) is intellect, meditation, devotion; it is also understanding , wisdom


    We have pure awareness that = samādhi ( and
    samādhī )

    • It is that level of awareness that is held and measured out (or resides) in śiva;
    • it is that intellect (dhī) that resides in the knowledge of śiva.
    • It is viṣṇu or śiva that is bestowing (san) this delight, this evenness of awareness.

    Now where did I get the term evenness? It is samā within the term samādhi. What is this evenness? It is undifferentiated awareness. And we have mentioned
    that undifferentiated awareness = pure awareness = samādhi.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    iti śivaṁ

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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