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Thread: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

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    VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    Namaste,

    How was it possible ? Some questions worth pondering ....

    1. In chapter 11, Lord Krishna shows His VishvarUpa where Arjuna sees the entire universe in Lord Krishna's body. This Rupa of God contains everything and there is nothing beyond this form ... Arjuna is unable to see either the beginning or the end of Lord's VishvarUpa. By definition, God is Infinite ... without beginning and without an end. There is nothing which exists outside God. Now, the question is :

    How did Arjuna saw this VishvarUpa ? Arjuna was inside it as the entire world was within that form. Arjuna felt that he was outside, because he was able to see the whole form ... the description given by him in Chapter 11 is not possible if he was inside that form.

    2. What is the real form of Krishna ? The form which was visible within the world as a human being or the form which was infinite containing the entire universe ? Was world within Krishna when he was in human form ? If yes, what was outside Him ?

    3. Mother Yashoda sees the entire universe within Lord Krishna's mouth when Lord Krishna was a child. Where was Mother Yashoda while seeing this phenomenon ... in outside world where child Lord Krishna was or inside the world which was in the mouth of Lord Krishna ? Or, if world was inside Lord Krishna what was outside Lord Krishna ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    Namaste,

    To correctly understand the above phenomenona, we first have to understand the Real nature of God.

    What does Bhagwad Gita says on the form / nature of God ? Let's see these verses :

    1. In verse 4.6 of BG God says :

    Ajopi san = Ajah (unborn) + api san (in spite of, though) ==> Though Unborn
    AvyayAtmA ===> Avyaya + AtmA ==> imperishable/Immutable Self
    Prakritim (Nature) + SvAm (my own) + adhishThaya (subjugating) ==> Subjugating my Prakriti (Nature)
    SambhavAmi ===> (I) Come into being
    AtmamAyayA ===> By means of my own MAyA

    Though I am unborn (ajah) imperishable Self and Lord of all beings subjugating my Prakriti (Nature), I (in this form) come into being by means of my own MAyA.

    What is the meaning of "Unborn" ? It doesn't only mean "unborn in worldly sense". It actually means, "That which was always there, eternally present." So, there was never a time when God was born or God came into being. Still, during Mahabharata time He was "born" ... as we know from the scripture. Lord Krishna says that it is due to his power of MaYa which He subjugates and that creates the phenomenon of His coming into being (as worldly being).

    What is the need of subjugating His own Prakriti here when Prakriti is always subjugated under Him ? This is because usually, Prakriti, has no power to effect God's birth or death as a human being. So, a special effort is needed by God Himself to force MAyA or Prakriti to create His form as desired by Him.

    So, in reality, He is unborn ... in reality, He is not as He is perceived as a human being by Arjuna and others ... but He is perceived so by His own power of MAyA which has been forced to act in this manner by God Himself.

    Here the question is : God, in reality, is Infinite. By assuming a human form, does He diminish by becoming a finite form ?

    That is refuted in the first part of the verse by the word "SannavyayAtmA" ===> He is undecaying / imperishable Self that is ===> He is changeless. So, Infinite, in reality, remains Infinite and still appears in a finite form when such a "divya" (wonderful, shining) phenomenon takes place. Therefore, the finite form that is perceived by Arjuna and others is only apparently so by the power of His own MAyA ... God still remains Infinite, Unborn and changeless.

    Why does He do so is stated in Verse 4.7 of BG.

    2. Let's see Verse 7.24 and 7.25 of BG :

    Avyaktam vyaktimApannam manyante mAm abuddhayah |
    Param bhAvam ajAnanto mama avyayam anuttamam || (BG 7.24)

    Avyaktam = Unmanifest
    Vyaktim (manifest) + Apannam (becoming) ==> become manifest
    manyanate ==> (they) think (so)
    mAm ==> Me
    Abuddhyah ==> The unintelligent people
    Param ==> The highest / Ultimate
    BhAvam ===> nature
    Ajanantah ==> Unaware
    Mama ==> My
    Avyayam ==> Undecaying / Unchanging /Immutable
    Anuttamama ==> excellent and insurmountable

    ====> The unintelligent people think that my unmanifest (existence) has become manifest unaware of my excellent and insurmountable immutable nature.

    What does this verse say ? In essence it says that by the said "apparent worldly" birth, He actually doesn't change ... He remains as He always is. Only the unintelligent people think that his unmanifest existence has become manifest (losing its real nature of being unmanifest). But it is not really so.

    How is he able to do so ? He explains in verse 7.25 :

    NAham prakAshah sarvasya yogmAyAsamAvritah |
    MUDhoyam nAbhijAnAti Loko mAmajamavyayam ||

    Na (Not) + aham (I) + Prakashah (visible/perceivable) ==> I am not perceived / visualised
    Sarvasya ==> to all
    YagmAyA + SamAvritah ===> veiled by YogmAyA
    MUDho + ayam ===> This unintelligent world
    na + abhijAnAti ===> Does not know
    MAm ==> My
    Ajam ==> Unborn
    Avyayam ===> Unchanging / Undecaying /Imperishable / Immutable

    Why doesn't this world perceive His Unborn and Immutable Nature ? Because He is veiled by YogamAyA. YogamAyA (Nature) is the power of Brahman which veils the Reality i.e. Brahman. Brahman doesn't change. It is always unborn and immutable and it is covered under the veil of MAyA and therefore, people don't understand It as It is.

    .... Contd in next posts ....

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 29 November 2015 at 04:01 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    How did Arjuna saw this VishvarUpa ? Arjuna was inside it as the entire world was within that form. Arjuna felt that he was outside, because he was able to see the whole form ... the description given by him in Chapter 11 is not possible if he was inside that form.
    OM
    ​Why not?

    Yes Arjun was "outside", but was also "inside"
    What BhagvAn shows us is to be seen with the Divya ChakshU , not with human logic. He gives us the capacity to comprehend
    what it means (kind of like wordless telepathy). By the way I know what you are arriving at.

    Shri KRshNa once showed me a form where He disappeared from my side, as if in order to pervade that form just as I turned to ask Him about what He was showing... To me it was 'a' Universal form of BhagvAn -- Vishwa rUpa' which had all deva devata. It was in an on-going context, and meant for a purpose which it served well. There was Dattatreya-in-disguise who kept ever-growing into the All-Devas Vishwa rUpa as soon as I put bhiksha in His jholi on KRshNa's order and KRshNa who pervaded it by disappearing from my side. Neither KRshNa nor Dattatreya were seen afterwards because they were the VishNu in the exact center who also pervaded the whole rUpa.

    By your logic, I should have been inside the rupa, because the Deva-Union is all-pervading, everywhere.

    To Arjun, a more elaborate Vishwa-rUpa served the purpose in that context -- kaalosmi
    To Duryodhan, a different Vishwa-rUpa depicting BhagavAn's all-powerful nature, served that purpose. It is a different story that Duryodhan ignored it -- but Bheeshma Pitamah and the acharyas there were blessed with it.

    I want to address your other questions in detail. Will be back later...

    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    Namaste smarnam,

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post

    Yes Arjun was "outside", but was also "inside"
    What BhagvAn shows us is to be seen with the Divya ChakshU , not with human logic. He gives us the capacity to comprehend
    what it means (kind of like wordless telepathy). By the way I know what you are arriving at.


    I agree and this is a very important point to be noted in the Vishva-Rupa darshan phenomenon. I will touch upon it from my point of view in my following posts. However, I would like to hear from you how you view this :

    Whenever we are unable to explain anything connected to God or His activities, we give a certain power to Him and stop questioning further. Can we logically explain how even with a divya chakshu, anyone can see the way Arjuna sees. Can you explain ?

    You have kept the font in the following para in your post so small that you forced this old man to use magnifying glass to be able to read what you have written !

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 29 November 2015 at 10:29 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Whenever we are unable to explain anything connected to God or His activities, we give a certain power to Him and stop questioning further. Can we logically explain how even with a divya chakshu, anyone can see the way Arjuna sees. Can you explain ?
    Namaste Devotee ji

    Sorry about the small font.
    To me this is simple. That is why I shared my own experience because Arjun is not going to come to HDF to speak for himself.
    When the medicant (Dattatreya in disguise) started growing larger and larger at high speed, KRshNa took me to a nearby hill so I could get a better look. It was on Shri KRshNa's behest that I had put the rice grains and fruits in the bhikshuk's jholi after which he started growing.

    What I could see was all Devas were in that huge rUpa -- GaNapati, Indra .... BramhA VishNu Mahesh in the center. When I turned to my left to talk to KRshNa , He wasn't there all of a sudden. I understood immediately that this rapidly expanding rUpa was Him!

    If the rUpa was a distinct vision KRshNa was showing, He would remain beside me, but he did not.

    It was clear from the demostration that this rUpa's expansion was not going to stop. It was my Swami's uttermost kRupA and kindness that showed the ananta - rUpa ! ananta = never-ending.
    anAdi-ananta. Beginingless and endless.
    How did I know this rUpa was anAdi-ananta?

    The answer is simple : you just have to take my word for it!
    It was something the Lord conveyed to His devotee who is not obliged to prove it to anyone
    I understood what He wanted me to -- so the purpose was served.
    It also answered doubts and guilt about not thinking about other DevtAs what to speak of worshiping them. They were all contained in Him.
    This rUpa was conveying the message of having no end, yet I could see the Deva's faces high up in the endless dark space. (I won't say "sky")

    From my own report -- there was nothing that could not be inside that rUpa. Therefore, logically, I had to be a part of it -- as well as the house/ hut. As well as the "hill" where prANanAth left me to turn into this vishaaaal rUpa. Have no issues with that. Of course I was a part of the rUpa "in front of my sUkshma eyes". Exactly like Arjun.

    Oh! But how is it that He is back today as Shri KRshNa? Whether dvi-bhuj (2-armed) or chaturbhuj (four-armed) ? And how is it that He turned into little Damodar before I even realized that KArtik had dawned??

    See, devotees are not so fond of being the only one around. We need our Lord. Nor do we want to prove anything.
    The proof is in the pudding :
    If You simply insist that You are something impersonal nirAkAr and tell me I am "THAT" I will suffocate, and I have conducted the experiment, and have suffocated. You are a witness to that and had to reveal Your KRshNa-rUpa out of no choice -- again and again. No amount of trickery can make me exist as if there is no one else -- be it via verbal gymnastics, logic gymnastics, theoretical gymnastics, none! What is the use of the samadhi which one enters into and exits 3 hrs later to resume the next day with eyes open but without You!
    You think you are doing Your "kartavya" (Divine dharma) by teaching us about this nirAkAr impersonal stuff. You have done that. Now it is our turn --- to say, "OK fine. So what?"


    This is what Uddhav learned from Radha and why KRshNa sent Uddhav to VRundAvan.

    This is why Shri KRshNa remains bansi bajaiyya Murli-manohar Shankha-Chakra-GadAdhAri GhanashyAm (also says in the same chapter 11 that this saumya (2/4 armed) form of His is ati durlabh! very precious and rarely seen -- be it with eyes, divya chakshU or hRday -- heart),

    and this is why He signs ---
    "eternally yours"

    Last edited by smaranam; 29 November 2015 at 06:15 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    Namaste Smaranam,

    Thanks for sharing your beautiful and blissful experience !

    I am slightly busy now but I would like to address one pricking issue in a haste, if you allow me. Your this part of the post reminded me of all those self-proclaimed Vaishnava warriors who want to finish of all Advaitins once for all :

    =smaranam]
    If You simply insist that You are something impersonal nirAkAr and tell me I am "THAT" I will suffocate, and I have conducted the experiment, and have suffocated. You are a witness to that and had to reveal Your KRshNa-rUpa out of no choice -- again and again. No amount of trickery can make me exist as if there is no one else -- be it via verbal gymnastics, logic gymnastics, theoretical gymnastics, none! What is the use of the samadhi which one enters into and exits 3 hrs later to resume the next day with eyes open but without You!
    You think you are doing Your "kartavya" (Divine dharma) by teaching us about this nirAkAr impersonal stuff. You have done that. Now it is our turn --- to say, "OK fine. So what?"
    I am not here for teaching anyone. I am not a teacher. I have no desire that you or anyone must agree to my posts. Why should that be necessary ? I come here to express myself as I find it correct and I give reasons and proof for what I say. There are many treatises on BG and with varying interpretations ? Were they trying to teach others or did they fight among themselves because their views didn't match those of others ? See, Advaitins are in this world because God wanted them to be there otherwise the whole lot of Advaitins must have been wiped out without a trace ... I hope you agree to this. If you think that we are fools and going to hell for what we feel and do ... let it be so. Do you want to help us by saying hateful words against us ?

    The use of terms "verbal gymnastics", "logic gymnastics" and the language used show intolerance (leave aside acceptance) towards any Advaitic proposition.

    Have you seen me speaking such a language against you even though my and your views differ quite a lot ? Please search the entire HDF and let me know. Against a few other Vaishnavas, I did sometimes retaliate against their unprovoked attacks ... but you can understand that if someone keeps attacking you, you can't always keep silent.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Smaranam,

    Thanks for sharing your beautiful and blissful experience !

    I am slightly busy now but I would like to address one pricking issue in a haste, if you allow me. Your this part of the post reminded me of all those self-proclaimed Vaishnava warriors who want to finish of all Advaitins once for all :


    I am not here for teaching anyone. I am not a teacher. I have no desire that you or anyone must agree to my posts. Why should that be necessary ? I come here to express myself as I find it correct and I give reasons and proof for what I say. There are many treatises on BG and with varying interpretations ? Were they trying to teach others or did they fight among themselves because their views didn't match those of others ?
    Namaste

    There has been a big, major misunderstanding !!
    That paragraph was for KRshNa, my prANanAth! Not for you!
    Why would I address you as You with a capital Y and why would I say "You had to reveal Your KRshNa rUpa" ?

    If You simply insist that You are something impersonal nirAkAr and tell me I am "THAT" I will suffocate, and I have conducted the experiment, and have suffocated. You are a witness to that and had to reveal Your KRshNa-rUpa out of no choice -- again and again.


    I was speaking to my Beloved. Remember this paragraph was titled "The proof is in the pudding" This has been my personal experience, and some of it very recent as well.
    I can say this to Him although He knows everything.
    KRshNa does not want me to suffocate! I cannot live without Him for too long. This is not some theory from some group but my very personal anubhav.
    How does that hurt you ? You are nowhere in the picture.

    Why should my honest and truthful personal anubhav affect you? Why should I have to live your way? You are free to live your way, and I do have resepct for your path, I was only saying I cannot tread it.



    About the teaching : KRshNa is not only Jagad-Guru but He is my Guru. I was saying this to Him. He teaches these things because He has to keep sama darshana. However He knows very well how His prema bhakta would feel and does not impose a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone. He knows exactly what His devotees want.

    My experience is independent of others but is shockingly similar to distinct experiences of others in history -- including the history while KRshNa was here on earth. That is all.

    I am not a part of the VaishNav warrior group you have mentioned. In fact they will not consider me as a part of their group. I am not from any group.

    See, Advaitins are in this world because God wanted them to be there otherwise the whole lot of Advaitins must have been wiped out without a trace ... I hope you agree to this. If you think that we are fools and going to hell for what we feel and do ... let it be so. Do you want to help us by saying hateful words against us ?
    OM
    What is all this devotee ji? You are jumping to conclusions on things I NEVER EVER said or meant-- only based on your past experience with some VaishNav warrior groups?

    I am sorry that these people gave you wounds and hope they have healed by now or I pray that may those bad memories be wiped out and bring back your peace to practice your sAdhanA freely with abandon.
    I am not from any group to think "us Vs them" . There are no such well-defined boundaries in my mind. I am an individual and you are another.

    What I am saying is -- there is no question of proving a siddhAnta to others, because I bank heavily on experience and KRshNa's guidance to recognize what bestows peace and happiness and what bestows sorrow or suffocation on me and me alone. I did not speak for others.

    If you look closely at my posts I have always maintained that it is about what works for the individual and not about any final declaration of what is the truth ans what is not.


    The use of terms "verbal gymnastics", "logic gymnastics" and the language used show intolerance (leave aside acceptance) towards any Advaitic proposition.

    It is as if you are saying my anubhav observed over long periods is my crime ? However, I hope the misunderstanding is cleared now

    About the word "gymnastics" -- I can use it for emphasis while talking to the Beloved though I was not intending to share that with others.

    This was an expression (which makes things clearer in my mind while they were always clear to Him) -- that said "My Dear Lord, I honor Your words more than anything. I have honestly tried the route of others, and suffocated."

    Please be assured that I do not wish to cause any pscychological harm to anyone , and have respect for not only you, but for Shankaracharya and his parampara as well.
    There are many hitachintaks (well-wishers) even right in my family, who have tried to tell me "KRshNa -- hmmm -- this is all nice . Now you have to become One with Him." What "One with Him" really means is They were waiting for me to give up His association and join their thought process. Which is not going to happen.
    Last edited by smaranam; 30 November 2015 at 09:15 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    Namaste Smaranam,

    I am so sorry for my rant over nothing ! How could I misunderstand you so badly ! Yes, you have a habit of writing in your posts as if you are talking to Him.. I should have remembered that.

    Thanks for the clarification. I wish I had any such experience as you had. My father was a Vaishnava and he used to tell me sometimes his similar experiences.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    I apologize for not making it explicit and assuming a certain understanding.
    Something I have to learn and keep in mind. This is the internet.

    However, Devoteeji -- not "as if I am talking to Him." I AM talking to Him OR a quote of a past conversation with GhanashyAm


    praNAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: VishvarUpa Darshna - Chapter 11

    What I learnedabout any darshan with the blessings of any AVATAR/SIDDHA GURU etc.. is that its a Kripa-initiated temporary Samadhi state,where blessed one has supra-sensorial vision of a LOK or A Tattva or Swaroop as wished by the Guru/Avtar. its after effect stays with the seeker for along time and usually its intention is to create a hunger in the seeker to achieve the stage natuarally by sadhna.

    Here the samadhi is savikalpa/sampranjata samadhi,where the seeker/devotee is the witness,.its all inside the seeker"s antahkaran,where he is sakshi,rest is divine entity.

    Both advaita and Leela darshan can happen according to the predominant bhava of seekers.
    Last edited by anirvan; 06 December 2015 at 06:28 AM.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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