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Thread: Which will give a better birth, and why?

  1. #11
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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam:

    Firstly, I have no authority to speak on such matters at all. Still, a few thoughts come to mind.
    I apologize for the confusion. I'm not asking for any authoritative standing, but a mere discussion with some possible examples.

    I have no idea what you mean by spiritual 'accomplishments'. If the focus is on accomplishing something, it seems to me it's ego boosting all around. "Oh, I accomplished this, then that, then this." This path we are on, in my view, is not like some marketplace where we get this, and then get that. But rather it is going about dharma without thought of results. So I don't understand what is meant by accomplishment in the spiritual realm.
    In my language, if someone is able to go about dharma without thought of results, I would say, "he accomplished something spiritually". It is not about constantly thinking of getting somewhere as in ego-boosting, but 'wanting' to get somewhere and taking steps to get there and feeling like having gotten there (full way/half way) after significant efforts.

    Point one I do get. But if that's not dharma. I have no idea what is. True, it may only be part of it.
    Yes, point 1 is dharma, however, one that does not take into consideration any spiritual sadhana...

    As for a rebirth, whom is to say it is because of the results of this single lifetime? My understanding is that a birth is the result of karmas accumulated and dharma performed over several lifetimes.
    ^This I concur with rather fully. Thanks for this.

    But then what is the idea of a wondrous birth? Will a birth of wealth lead a soul further to moksha, or will a birth full of suffering? Whom is it say? If moksha is the goal, then a meritorious birth may be one where the mere opportunity to perform dharma or renounce the world to seek moksha full time is the superior re-incarnation.
    I think I did not adequately convey this point in the OP. For vast majority of people, a wondrous birth is purely material success. For a few spiritual minded people, it is one of spiritual progress. For someone like me, a wondrous birth is one that gives all-around success - both materialistically as well as spiritually (as in acquisition of a virtuous disposition).

    I thank you many fold for your reply, I will look upon it for further insight!

    Aum Namasivaya

    Aum Namasivaya[/QUOTE]
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  2. #12
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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaswathy View Post
    People who follow spiritual path , do meritorious deeds and at the same time enjoy material prosperity ,though not utilise the riches for their selfish ends ,could take birth in their next birth, either in a very rich family where the sadhana could go on without any obstacles or mundane worries or in a yogic family . Thus where the sadhana comes to a photofinish stage and the person dies , the conclusion is ,that this birth to him, is last but one birth.That's what our learned say .People who do not have any spiritual yearnings would invariably go astray wallowing in luxuries thinking that they are the chosen followers of God , that they are lucky , that they are great meritorious people.
    Excellent reply, Sir. Now after reading this, I am inclined to agree with you, and say that, yes, doing spiritual sadhana to get a virtuous disposition and attain relief from cycle of birth and death is akin to taking the last few births on this planet. And it must be way above all that other types of dharma can possibly give. Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Vannakkam Viraja: It's an interesting topic. Going back to the OP, most people I know whom I admire do both. Certainly the sadhana nurtures the seva, or motivates them more to do seva. Even the few people I know (the monks of Kauai Aadheenam) who do a ton of personal spiritual inner work also serve humanity. (mainly through their publishing efforts) The householders (in this community, my community) enable them to do what they do by taking care of the money end of things. I personally think the perfect birth would be to have the opportunity to be a monk. (For me it would also be in that order.)

    I also know people in our local temple community who spend several hours or more a week on seva at the temple in cleaning, cooking, general helping, maintenance etc. who do no sadhana whatsoever. One young man said to me the other day .. "I just feel so good after cleaning the floor." Still others I know do a lot of sadhana but are generally 'not nice people' in that they never help anyone or give to charity, but are totally in it for themselves, as best as I can determine anyway. So it's complicated, isn't it? I certainly don't have it all figured out, but go along hoping somehow I've made a few right decisions along the way, accrued more punya than papa.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Dearfriend ,
    In the process of evolution , when the soul takes birth in several upadhis ,it repays the debts , gets repaid to its debts and in each birth gets a lesson so that it becomes purified by getting rid of its weaknesses , correcting it's mistakes and making amendments ,having better code of conduct . So usually as the time and experiences progress it goes up in the ladder .. Secondly just as nature has got all the changes according to the seasons, we are also subject to changes since body is made up panchabhuthas.The inner structure has all arishadvargas .The supreme being 'Parabrahman ' very gently makes ourselves to understand our fallacies and correct them Whatever we do either in words or deeds or thoughts come back to us .So the concept of ego does not get penalised in any new way . Once we understand the theory of karma , that is theory of actions , we don't commit the same mistakes.What I mean is , unless it is hurting other's interests , we can entertainthe so called ego feeling , because it is a part of the existence .There is a thing known as righteous anger ,righteous pride , righteous stand ,which are all appreciated by the nature because the absence of those attributes makes a person imbecile. This is what taught to me by my guru.

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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Most of the people I met indulge in spiritual begging or spiritual selfishness .There could be one in millions who practice what they believe and preach .Sadhana like this leads to many births to facilitate the purification One Ramana maharshi , one Ramakrishna paramahansa , one siddhendra yogi ,one kanchi paramacharya --- very very rare

  6. #16
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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Namaste Viraja,

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Consider the following 2 scenarios, which is most conducive to a better, more fulfilling next life?

    1. Lot of meritorious deeds - charity to the deserving, piety, lot of volunteer work and service to the disabled, and so forth. No special spiritual accomplishments.

    2. Lot of spiritual accomplishments - Especially mastery over the senses, certain amount of victory over the 6 negatives (kama, krodha, moha, lobha, madha, matsarya). But not a lot of meritorious deeds except for accomplishment on the spiritual arena.

    Which one will give a life, successful and fulfilling BOTH materialistically as well as spiritually?
    1. It depends upon how you define "better birth" ? Whatever I have read and have learnt from my Guru, people have different types motives for what they do. Why do a man does charity ? Does he do just for the heck of it or he feels that he accumulates Punya in the process. I feel that he does it because he feels that he accumulates Punya by involving himself in such deeds. If a person does good to others in whatever manner, good will be returning back to him in this or after life. If one has been generous in charity works and he has desires for wealth, he will get ample wealth in his next life by virtue of his karmas. As a bonus he will be endowed for yearning for higher spiritual goals in his next birth because of having excess of sattva guna due to his karma.

    2. People who resort to gaining mastery over senses, victory over 6 negatives etc. have higher spiritual goals. By the term, higher spiritual goals, I mean going towards liberation. These actions will cause favourable circumstances in next life for helping the person achieve even higher spiritual levels.

    If one wants to have both then obviously he must do 1. and 2. both together and also have desires for wealth etc. Actually "desires" are first precondition for anything in next life to happen. Whether it would really happen or he will just be burning with desires in next birth, will depend upon his karma. But even he gets both things favourable at the time of birth, there is no guarantee how things would finally turn in next life. It may be that under the influence of wealth, he becomes less spiritual and become more and more materialistic and may even start accumulating bad karmas. This is because there is some uncertainty in how things actually work in spite of favourable or unfavourable karmas of previous births. This depends upon circumstances and his choices made in that life.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #17
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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Wonderful thoughts, EMji, Saswathy ji, Devotee ji. I'm unable to reply, I have to think. I thank you all whole-heartedly for your replies.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  8. #18

    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Namaste Virajaji

    You do not need my answer, but just stating BG verses on what KRshNa says to point 2.

    Point 1. is a step that leads to purification no doubt. Good karma, puNya - bring more opportunities for samAj-sevA and make the being more well-equipped to do so kAyA-vAchA-manena. (by body-wealth-speech-mind) -- leads to more purification and selflessness (i.e. decreasing ego)... if done with the right mind. If all this is done with desire for some sort of fame, that will not lead to spiritual advancement OR it will be slow as ahaMkAra will be the obstacle.

    Point 2: This is directly from Shri KRshNa :

    Bg 6.37— Arjuna said: O Kṛṣṇa, what is the destination of the unsuccessful transcendentalist, who in the beginning takes to the process of self-realization with faith but who later desists due to worldly-mindedness and thus does not attain perfection in mysticism?
    Bg 6.38— O mighty-armed Kṛṣṇa, does not such a man, who is bewildered from the path of transcendence, fall away from both spiritual and material success and perish like a riven cloud, with no position in any sphere?
    Bg 6.40— The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Son of Pṛthā, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil.
    Bg 6.41— The unsuccessful yogī, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy.
    Bg 6.42— Or [if unsuccessful after long practice of yoga] he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Certainly, such a birth is rare in this world.
    Bg 6.43— On taking such a birth, he revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he again tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success, O son of Kuru.
    Bg 6.44— By virtue of the divine consciousness of his previous life, he automatically becomes attracted to the yogic principles – even without seeking them. Such an inquisitive transcendentalist stands always above the ritualistic principles of the scriptures.
    Bg 6.45— And when the yogī engages himself with sincere endeavor in making further progress, being washed of all contaminations, then ultimately, achieving perfection after many, many births of practice, he attains the supreme goal.
    Bg 6.46— A yogī is greater than the ascetic, greater than the empiricist and greater than the fruitive worker. Therefore, O Arjuna, in all circumstances, be a yogī.
    Bg 6.47— And of all yogīs, the one with great faith who always abides in Me, thinks of Me within himself and is fully devoted to Me – he is the most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all. That is My opinion.
    Last edited by smaranam; 30 December 2015 at 11:23 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #19
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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Very nice message, Smaranam ji. Thank you. It clarifies my question.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  10. #20
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    Re: Which will give a better birth, and why?

    Namaste Viraja ji

    Members have offered various advices and their point of view.

    When I read your posty my first question is why are you asking? I am not judgemental. I will suggest you to contemplate on this KuraL. Don't go by the meaning given in the page. Take it as an exercise to find your way.

    http://www.tamil-tutorial.com/thirukural/kural-280/

    PS: I ain't promoting Tamil or indirectly supporting DK's ideological hypocrisy. Because you understand Tamil thought it will help you.
    Anirudh...

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