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Thread: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

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    My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    Learned people,

    A skeptic asked me why jyotish fails citing examples of some instances where astrologers and jyotishis made predictions that never came true. I) his niece, a GOLD MEDAL winning M.E graduate was predicted to settle abroad and make a nice name for herself according to astrologers -- she DIED of Pneumonia the next year. ii) Few more instances as fatal as the first one.

    He asked me why jyotish fails and he has been asking us these questions for a very long time.

    Although I am not a jyotishi, or even learning jyotish, I am a jyotish enthusiast and for this reason I ventured into answering his question in Facebook. Since then many people shared my post!! Now I want to revise this post to convey the practical limitations to the 'predictive' aspect of jyotish.

    If you want to make the following better and more attuned to the truth, what would you write?

    Thank you,

    Viraja


    My answer to the skeptic:

    Why jyotish fails? -- A simple, humble attempt from an astro-enthusiast.
    i) It is too complicated. The 12 rasis and 9 planets convey literally trillions of meanings. One meaning sits over another and completely masks it. It is hard to decipher and delineate one factor over a myriad of applicable factors.
    ii) I am not even a jyotish learner. So what I say here may not be 'technically correct' but 'logically correct' to make it understandeable, why jyotish fails.
    When major planets such as Saturn/Jupiter or sometimes even fast moving planets like Mars or even Rahu/Ketu transits over a certain rasi, it is said to distill major events (as controlled by dasa/bhukti). Let us say that for example, Saturn transits over someone's 8th house - 8th house signifies a myriad of things, regeneration, death, sex, transformation and lottery amongst others. Let us say, there is planet Sun posited in his 8th house. Sun is the significator or "karaka" for father. In his chart, Sun is 7th lord.
    1. The transit may trigger misfortune or death to father.
    2. 7th lord in 8th house means unearned wealth - the native may land on a windfall or lottery.
    3. It can mean divorce, death of partner (7th lord is the significator for partner/spouse).
    4. Sun in 8th house signifies occult knowledge - the transit can even make the native venture into learning occult!
    5. 8th house signifies private body parts. 8th house also signifies disease. The transit may also signify onset of a disease or treatment for it from a doctor (as Sun signfies doctors).

    + many more things, other than listed above. So, it is not easy to arrive at one thing among a million others.
    iii) A trained astro-enthusiast or a jyotishi will be able to see the pattern of planetary interplay ONCE you telll them the event. it will be obvious which planets are troublesome and which are favorable. That is why, based on this, pariharas are suggested.
    iv) As I said already, this is the reason why jyotish is more for spiritual guidance than for predictive purposes. Once you are able to see the interplay of planets in bringing out any and all events, you can only admire the karma theory, the rebirth factor, etc, and become humble before almighty lord and his powerful grahas.

    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    I guess I wrote a perfect reply then, since there is no correction/improvement to what I wrote from here.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Learned people,

    A skeptic asked me why jyotish fails citing examples of some instances where astrologers and jyotishis made predictions that never came true.
    It is quite simple for me ( and me only)... it fails due to the jyotisha-s lack of intuition.

    From where does this intuition originate?
    rtambharā tatra prajñā||48 - patañjali’s yogadarśana , 1st chapter

    knowing/perception/intuition (prajñā) in that (nirvicārasamādhi) which is ṛtambharā ||48

    It is stainless knowledge, without a blemish ' that which is filled with truth or
    ṛta, light'
    This is insight that IMHO needs to accompany jyotish calculations. Not many have this.
    Can calculations still yield results ? No Doubt. Can impeccable calculations still be
    accomplished
    without this
    ṛtambharā ? IMHO, no.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ


    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    If intuition is the supreme factor then what would be the sense in spending so much time and agonizing over calculations, meg, mini and micro techniques and technicalities and discussions and debates and such futile activities? Seems wasteful!

    To the claire-sentient (intuitive), at least in many cases, all such calculations and mental gymnastics would perhaps be akin to the 'magic feather' in the tale of Dumbo the flying elephant...?

    Rohiniranjan
    _________________
    MA GIVE US eyes to see, and minds to understand what the eyes see, and hearts beating in unison to keep the eyes and minds alive and ALL OF US engaged in serving YOU FOREVER.

    A birth-epoch is a seemingly-random TRANSIT-epoch that gains a personal-meaningfulness and becomes a beacon in the current lifetime of the incarnated soul-fragment; the union of a kona (angle) with a trikona (trine)...?

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    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    ...
    jyotish is more for spiritual guidance than for predictive purposes. Once you are able to see the interplay of planets in bringing out any and all events, you can only admire the karma theory, the rebirth factor, etc, and become humble before almighty lord and his powerful grahas.

    You may be right but I see jyotish as a tool. Or like a lump of play-doh (plasticine)! It is amorphous by itself but can be shaped into different things. To the religious-minded, it mirrors their religious beliefs and icons, to others it may be utilized as meaningful guidance in life, and so on so forth...! It is a hologram of LIFE!

    RR
    _________________
    MA GIVE US eyes to see, and minds to understand what the eyes see, and hearts beating in unison to keep the eyes and minds alive and ALL OF US engaged in serving YOU FOREVER.

    A birth-epoch is a seemingly-random TRANSIT-epoch that gains a personal-meaningfulness and becomes a beacon in the current lifetime of the incarnated soul-fragment; the union of a kona (angle) with a trikona (trine)...?

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    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    Thank you, Yajvan Ji and Rohiniranjan ji.

    I read this long time ago and also cited this to the skeptic. This concludes (also) that intuition does play a vital role, although it may be on top of solid technical skills.

    Thank you for the clarifications.

    "once Three great astrologers[ who never failed in their predictions] from Kerala came to Raghavendra Swamy matt . Shri Raghavendra swamiji handed over a horoscope to each of them and asked them to calculate the longevity . After hours of calculation , the three Astrologers determined that
    • the owner of horoscope would live for 70 years
    • the other declared a 300 years
    • third one declared 700 years .

    The sabha was surprised and eager to know whose horoscope that was; Raghavendra swamiji said the horoscope was his own. But what about the three different ages . Were the astrologers wrong in calculation . The astrologers came they cannot go wrong But how can one man have three longevities.
    This puzzled even astrologers . Then Great learned Shri Raghavendra Swamiji declared all the astrologers were correct , he would live with a mortal body for 70 years , after which he will take sajeeva samadhi and continue to live in samadhi Vrundavan of Mantralayam for 700 years and his books and teachings will be effectively preached till 300 years.The people and scholars gathered appreciated the astrologers and praised SHri Raghavendra swamy for his intense knowledge of jyotishya as well . The scholars were felicitated by the Mutt and swamiji with gold and cash and certificates citation etc."
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by Rohiniranjan View Post
    If intuition is the supreme factor then what would be the sense in spending so much time and agonizing over calculations, meg, mini and micro techniques and technicalities and discussions and debates and such futile activities? Seems wasteful!

    To the claire-sentient (intuitive), at least in many cases, all such calculations and mental gymnastics would perhaps be akin to the 'magic feather' in the tale of Dumbo the flying elephant...?

    Rohiniranjan
    I think you bring a valid point to the conversation... here is my opinion on the matter. It is my view that calculations can only go so far.
    This does not suggest they are not worth one's effort to learn and comprehend. Yet it is my firm conviction that aligning one's
    jyotish work and studies that include the development of
    ṛtambharā is proper and good i.e. will yield the best results. As I suggested
    in my last post it is my view that good results can come from doing calculations; yet impeccable results ( and that is my differentiating point offered here)
    will be WITH ṛtambharā that has ripened.
    Why so?
    There are innumerable influences in a chart ( as you too suggest). Not to mention dozens of charts and dozens
    of
    daśā sytems that are in play and overlap; there are multiple
    influences of dusthāna-s and argala-s in play. All these moving parts going on at one time. To come to valid conclusions within these spheres of influence is a feat in and of itself.
    The only way ( for me) to see a proper and reliable forecast of events and outcomes is via the development of pure awareness - the core of
    ṛtambharā.
    Others may wish to learn more calculation techniques ( once the basics are established and advanced concepts are firmly understood). For me , I have taken to
    the expansion of Self-referral for my jyotish development. Is this for everyone, no. Yet for me I have found clarity of mind is a direct and practical benefit that can be
    applied to jyotish overall. Yet my experience has been to engage less and less jyotish. Why so ? I come to see it is in the hands of the Lord.

    Other's may vary in their approach and wish them all the success that can unfold for them...


    …unfathomable is the course of action (BG 4.17)

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ


    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8

    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    Hello,

    Some people like to say (colloquially) that if one is guided by a Guru, astrologers' predictions will come to naught. Has anyone else heard this?
    Is there any truth in it?

    Best regards
    Laalu

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    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Laalu View Post
    Hello,

    Some people like to say (colloquially) that if one is guided by a Guru, astrologers' predictions will come to naught. Has anyone else heard this?
    Is there any truth in it?

    Best regards
    Laalu
    Namastay ji,

    Never heard of that. However, if you replace "Guru" with 'God' and then yes I have heard anecdotes of such experiences.
    _________________
    MA GIVE US eyes to see, and minds to understand what the eyes see, and hearts beating in unison to keep the eyes and minds alive and ALL OF US engaged in serving YOU FOREVER.

    A birth-epoch is a seemingly-random TRANSIT-epoch that gains a personal-meaningfulness and becomes a beacon in the current lifetime of the incarnated soul-fragment; the union of a kona (angle) with a trikona (trine)...?

  10. #10

    Re: My answer to a skeptic on why Jyotish fails (sometimes)

    Namaste,

    Not just for predictions per se, this question. Wondering if there are periods when ones intuition can fail you, or be a little dimmer than usual.
    Just trying to understand the idea of intuition - prajna itself. We all have this inner commentary going on which accompanies thoughts or incidents that happen to us. I am thinking that intuition isn't constant, so to speak and comes in occasional flashes for most people. So, perhaps, during a tough period for a jyotisha itself, he/she might mistake his own inner voice/commentary and project a certain world view on the chart being studied. And this would happen to almost all people, even those who are diligent with sadhana, Self Enquiry. We are all fallible jeevas.
    So to follow on that, where does one look to intuitive powers in a horoscope? I am thinking the 4th house and the Moon will determine the nature of one's inner voice/commentary. Whether it's positive/supportive, or gloomy. Please guide me if I'm thinking about this wrong. Where does intuition show up?

    Best wishes,
    Laalu



    Quote Originally Posted by Rohiniranjan View Post
    Namastay ji,

    Never heard of that. However, if you replace "Guru" with 'God' and then yes I have heard anecdotes of such experiences.

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