Mystic Islam

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Singhi,

Translation certainly can change the meaning of a line!

Without any translation, examine the meaning of this line:

Only cats dogs and mice with three legs are accepted.

Are only three-legged animals accepted (i.e. only cats, dogs, and mice, with three legs, are accepted), or is it only the mice that must be three-legged (i.e. only cats, dogs, and mice with three legs, are accepted)?

And are they (however numerous their legs) only accepted by someone who uses three legs (i.e. only cats, dogs, and mice, with three legs are accepted)?

Now, before anyone can translate this line into any other language, they must fully understand its context and the meaning intended by the one who spoke those words.

And is it only actual cats and dogs that are being considered, or could the terms “cat”, “dog”, “mouse”, “with 3 legs”, and even “accepted”, have various more esoteric meanings?

Language (or Tongue) is only secondarily written and read ~ for primarily it has always been spoken and heard ~ and so illiteracy has no bearing on this matter.

It is essential, however, for proper communication, that both the speaker and the listener understand exactly the same language.

The essence of Dharma is surely linguistic!

AUM …

[Arjuna]

The torah is from the oldest copy of the old testament, which is in the vatican and is written in greek, and if a person compaires the latest torah the old ones, even those hundred of years old it will be the same. And the oldest old testament is itself a copy of a previous work, this is written in the first or second page. In fact hebrew only became the official language of judiaism in the last 300 years or so.

This is wrong. Original text of TaNaKh (Torah, Prophets and Writings) was written in Hebrew and partly in Aramaic.
Greek text (Septuaginta) is a translation, which at places differ from Hebrew masoretic version current nowadays. Most scholars hold the Hebrew version to be more accurate, than Greek one (which is in any case not original one).

Hebrew and Aramaic were "official" languages of Judaism from the very beginning.

[Arjuna]

The essence of Dharma is surely linguistic!
AUM …

Namaste, Sarabhanga!

Totally agree with U in this matter. Language is indeed essential for proper understanding of any dharma and of Dharma as well.

[Gill Harley]

I love this Rumi poem!

Be Lost in the Call

Lord, said David, since you do not need us,
why did you create these two worlds?

Reality replied: O prisoner of time,
I was a secret treasure of kindness and generosity,
and I wished this treasure to be known,
so I created a mirror: its shining face, the heart;
its darkened back, the world;
The back would please you if you've never seen the face.
Has anyone ever produced a mirror out of mud and straw?
Yet clean away the mud and straw,
and a mirror might be revealed.

Until the juice ferments a while in the cask,
it isn't wine. If you wish your heart to be bright,
you must do a little work.

My King addressed the soul of my flesh:
You return just as you left.
Where are the traces of my gifts?
We know that alchemy transforms copper into gold.

This Sun doesn't want a crown or robe from God's grace.
He is a hat to a hundred bald men,
a covering for ten who were naked.

Jesus sat humbly on the back of an ass, my child!
How could a zephyr ride an ass?
Spirit, find your way, in seeking lowness like a stream.
Reason, tread the path of selflessness into eternity.

Remember God so much that you are forgotten.
Let the caller and the called disappear;
be lost in the Call.

Wonderful!

[Gill Harley]

Here is a small potted biog of Rumi:

[from this website: http://www.armory.com/~thrace/sufi/life.html]


The name Mowlana Jalaluddin Rumi stands for Love and ecstatic flight into the infinite. Rumi is one of the great spiritual masters and poetical geniuses of mankind and was the founder of the Mawlawi Sufi order, a leading mystical brotherhood of Islam.

Rumi was born in Wakhsh (Tajikistan) under the administration of Balkh in 30 September 1207 to a family of learned theologians. Escaping the Mongol invasion and destruction, Rumi and his family traveled extensively in the Muslim lands, performed pilgrimage to Mecca and finally settled in Konya, Anatolia, then part of Seljuk Empire. When his father Bahaduddin Valad passed away, Rumi succeeded his father in 1231 as professor in religious sciences. Rumi 24 years old, was an already accomplished scholar in religious and positive sciences.

He was introduced into the mystical path by a wandering dervish, Shamsuddin of Tabriz. His love and his bereavement for the death of Shams found their expression in a surge of music, dance and lyric poems, `Divani Shamsi Tabrizi'. Rumi is the author of six volume didactic epic work, the `Mathnawi', called as the 'Koran in Persian' by Jami, and discourses, `Fihi ma Fihi', written to introduce his disciples into metaphysics.

If there is any general idea underlying Rumi's poetry, it is the absolute love of God. His influence on thought, literature and all forms of aesthetic expression in the world of Islam cannot be overrated.

Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi died on December 17, 1273. Men of five faiths followed his bier. That night was named Sebul Arus (Night of Union). Ever since, the Mawlawi dervishes have kept that date as a festival.

The day I've died, my pall is moving on -
But do not think my heart is still on earth!
Don't weep and pity me: "Oh woe, how awful!"
You fall in devil's snare - woe, that is awful!
Don't cry "Woe, parted!" at my burial -
For me this is the time of joyful meeting!
Don't say "Farewell!" when I'm put in the grave -
A curtain is it for eternal bliss.
You saw "descending" - now look at the rising!
Is setting dangerous for sun and moon?
To you it looks like setting, but it's rising;
The coffin seems a jail, yet it means freedom.
Which seed fell in the earth that did not grow there?
Why do you doubt the fate of human seed?
What bucket came not filled from out the cistern?
Why should the Yusaf "Soul" then fear this well?
Close here your mouth and open it on that side.
So that your hymns may sound in Where- no-place!

Schimmel, Annemarie. Look! This Is Love: Poems of Rumi.
Boston, Mass.: Shambhala Publications, 1991.

[ramkish42]

Namaste Singhi,

Translation certainly can change the meaning of a line!

Without any translation, examine the meaning of this line:

Only cats dogs and mice with three legs are accepted.

Are only three-legged animals accepted (i.e. only cats, dogs, and mice, with three legs, are accepted), or is it only the mice that must be three-legged (i.e. only cats, dogs, and mice with three legs, are accepted)?

And are they (however numerous their legs) only accepted by someone who uses three legs (i.e. only cats, dogs, and mice, with three legs are accepted)?

Now, before anyone can translate this line into any other language, they must fully understand its context and the meaning intended by the one who spoke those words.

And is it only actual cats and dogs that are being considered, or could the terms “cat”, “dog”, “mouse”, “with 3 legs”, and even “accepted”, have various more esoteric meanings?

Language (or Tongue) is only secondarily written and read ~ for primarily it has always been spoken and heard ~ and so illiteracy has no bearing on this matter.

It is essential, however, for proper communication, that both the speaker and the listener understand exactly the same language.

The essence of Dharma is surely linguistic!

AUM …

Troublesome example.

The fact as it goes, the phrase given in english itself is confounding. Say I would like to translate it in any indian language, I will be translating it in the way I understand, I agree. But the fact goes, My english knowledge, even if I have a Ph. D in english is not going to help me with this phrase. Even a native englishman will be confounded with such phrases.

To understand esoteric meaning for the phrase, the important is knowledge of the subject and not language. Assume this confounding phrase is part of a vital dharma of Hinduism - then, to understand esoteric meaning of this phrase depends on knowledge of Hinduism I have than knowledge of english language

Language of Dharma itself is ridiculous Idea. Dharma is common for all - being a tamil, dharma spelled in sanskrit binds me whether I know the language or not, for I know the subject. Such idea of language of dharma falls into a trap of perpetual call for higher knowledge. First, I should know my mother tongue well, then I know dharma then I have to know my religion in full, then the most important langugae of the religion, say sanskrit, some great guru would had given some text in another language then I have know that language - this goes on and on. Whereas, my aim is to reach god and seek eternity, what I am actually seeking to know is different language and their spellbound nature.

I understood this because of my background. Being a tamil vaishnavaite, most of vaishnavite books are in Sanskrit and Tamil, some books are in Manipravaalam. In due course, I came across the fact to understand my philosophy, knowledge of few other philosophy became important - just to know the strong tenant - in the phase, I found good books are written in Kanada, Telugu, Marathi, Bengali and few books are supposed to be written in Prakrutha. Some original works are written in Grantha Lipi - What am I looking for actually - I am not here to learn different languages, different writing scripts - I have only the shortest possible life - For me tomorrow is fully under the scope of possiblity and never been under 100% assurance. What am I supposed to do? Use translations - simple.

Further I also understood knowledge of language is not going to help much. Say tasya yatha kapyasam pundarikam evam akshini - what do you understand by this. Kapyasam - can mean monkey (kapeesh) and Ka AApa Yasam - who drinks water. Anybody who knows sanskrit will get confused with this phrase. This is were commentaries and translations come handy - first with my sanskrit knowledge I could not even understand what the phrase means - only translations of legendary commentaries helped me to understand the existence of different meanings.

If such the cases are how could one dispense with translations and go behind the original script

[willie]

I and a lot of jews would like to see this version for the old testament produced. The old testament in the vatican is in greek and the one used as the reference for the torah, sure it is a copy of an earlier work because it says it is a copy on the first few pages.

Aramaic was widely used in the middle east , in the time of jesus and for some time before that but it was in no way the only language used by the jews. Jews spoke a variety of languages depending on where they lived. So any torah the used was probably a local version and no telling what they were like. but I will have to check into that.

[willie]

This cats dogs and three legged mice thing belongs more to the religious problem set rather than the solution set.

It is the sort of cute word play that leaves the reader confused and not knowing what it going on. So is some sence the fruit of it is to for the writer to show their mental superiority, not exactly going along with not expecting the fruit of their labor.

[Arjuna]

I and a lot of jews would like to see this version for the old testament produced. The old testament in the vatican is in greek and the one used as the reference for the torah, sure it is a copy of an earlier work because it says it is a copy on the first few pages.

Catholic Church holds Hebrew version to be more accurate, and their Vulgate Latin translation is based upon Hebrew.

[Gill Harley]

I and a lot of jews would like to see this version for the old testament produced. The old testament in the vatican is in greek and the one used as the reference for the torah, sure it is a copy of an earlier work because it says it is a copy on the first few pages.

Aramaic was widely used in the middle east , in the time of jesus and for some time before that but it was in no way the only language used by the jews. Jews spoke a variety of languages depending on where they lived. So any torah the used was probably a local version and no telling what they were like. but I will have to check into that.

In the last few centuries of the BCs, most Jews of any standing spoke Greek, especially in Alexandria (where there more Jews lthan there were in Jerusalam and where many of the more recent books of the OT were thought to have been written).

I can recommend a number of good books on this subject, if you're interested.