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Thread: Forgiveness. What's it?

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  1. #1
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    Forgiveness. What's it?

    Dear HDF

    My question is after watching the On going Mahaa Bhaarat war in Surya Putra Karna.

    Sriman Naaraayan in many occasions either directly or subtlety conveys, punishment is a kind of help to the wrongdoers and to the society. I am told by Sri Vaishnava Gurus, What ever Sriman does is beneficial to us and not harmful.
    Not just VA, other schools too preach the same.

    If punishment is a help then what is forgiveness? Is punishment and forgiveness one and the same?
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste,

    Instead of answering your question, I will try to give you some philosophical background and let you make the final decision.

    According to our belief system, the Divine set the universe in motion with the law of Karma to provide balance to all activity. The second thing we accept is that we are not the doers but implementing the will of the Divine. He works through us.

    If a person does something wrong to me, should I seek revenge and punish him or forgive him. This has two angles. One that the law of Karma is dispensing a proportionate response to his wrongdoing. If you don't seek revenge and forgive him, I would think that the law of Karma would still punish him. This might take the form of the Divine assigning the task of a proportionate response to someone other than you; or the person may suffer internally through his feelings of shame and guilt; or the bad deeds may be allowed to accumulate until such time that the Divine chooses for the response to be administered. So, there are a number of scenarios in which a spiritually elevated person may forgive the wrongdoer, but the law of Karma will catch up with him sooner or later and the punishment will be meted out either physically or psychologically. How does that sound? Does it explain some of your dilemma? What are your thoughts on this topic? We can discuss and reach some conclusion!

    Pranam.

    PS, As far as punishment goes, our ego has a way of tricking us. Sometimes we may choose to forgive a wrongdoer but then proceed to ignore him. In this case we do punish the wrongdoer through ignoring him but get the superficial satisfaction of knowing that we did not respond to his provocation. So, ignoring someone becomes a form of punishment meted out silently and is no better than a direct altercation even though the person taking the high ground may think so to boost his ego.
    Last edited by Believer; 28 June 2016 at 11:39 PM.

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    Post Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste Believer ji

    This is one thing that constantly intrigues me.

    What is the right course of action when you are facing adversity. I read Raamaayan, Mahaa Bhaarat. Both epics convey every action results into equal and opposite reaction. Here the word opposite should not be seen as opposite in the true sense. In practise If I do good, there's no guarantee I will get good rewards. Depending on the beneficiary of the good deeds done by me, results will vary. Because of Kaikeyyi, Dashrath had to die even though he didn't killed poor old couples child intentionally. Will you say he shouldn't have honored his promise, in order to keep his words he ended up hurting 3 non related souls. Later he died. FOR what? To honor his words given to Kaikeyyi?
    Leave old stories. let's take our lives as an example. In a hypothetical sitiation If you be kind to a serial rapist, there's no guarantee that he 'll be polite with your dear ones. I know you aren't a woman, but for the purpose of discussion and to drive point to the home lets assume that you are a young pretty girl walking lonely in a wolves crowded area. What should you do if a mad wolf pounce. Assume you are over powered and the damage is done. Should you forgive and wait for the nature to take actions. Or you do something to fix the issue.
    What is nature. It's you me and that wolf. Ok. I 'll add Sriman Naaraayan into the list. Sriman Naaraayan didn't take weapon(s) but he guided people to restore justice.Likewise whether it is Raamaayan or Mahaa Bhaarat each and every situation portrayed tells that a wrong is a wrong. Procrastination only messes things.

    Whats my final conclusion. If some one has to be punished, not punishing is a SIN. If Dharma raja hadn't indulged in gambling Mahaa Bhaarat wouldn't have taken. But if all other Paandava brother s had declined to respect the words of Dharma Raaj, they would not suffered...
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    In practise If I do good, there's no guarantee I will get good rewards.
    I do hope you mean that there will be no instant rewards. Somewhere along the line, either in this lifetime or in one of the future ones, you will be rewarded. That is the basic law of Karma. If you don't accept that, then you have to re-read all your books.

    We all react at different levels as our spiritual levels are different. If I were the girl in your scenario, I will walk through that neighborhood with a loaded gun and would be quite willing to use it too if I was driven to that. Someone with more common sense would avoid walking through such a neighborhood. Spiritually elevated people would dress and walk differently from the glamorous people and not draw attention. Besides such people would be spending most of their free time in the service of Bhagwanji and would likely not get into bad situations.

    In common everyday situations that we householders run into, we react to different provocations at different levels. That again is due to our egos. A spiritually evolved person would not be perturbed by petty insults or backbiting or rude behavior offered. being relatively devoid of ego he would not feel hurt and just go about his merry way. But a shallow person like me would take offense to every little thing and end up picking verbal fights a hundred times a day with his coworkers, with his family members and with himself.

    Regarding administering justice in a civil society; we do tend to live by laws and the law enforcement authorities do administer punishment for every crime to keep things under control. Should we at personal level also punish everyone doing something bad to us? To me, the mundane situations do not require any reaction, the violent ones are dealt by the law enforcement and some are handled by ourselves. As I said the basic law of Karma states that there will be a punishment coming for every base activity. The question becomes who will enforce that punishment. Would that be me carrying a loaded gun to protect myself and to offer a proper response to criminals; do I leave that to the law enforcement and do I have to react to every verbal insult/provocation/bullying? To me every forgiveness is temporary. The forgiver buys some peace of mind and spiritual credits for his action; but the creator will definitely have the wrongdoer punished by someone at the appropriate time. Not doing so violates the very foundation of our faith. More later if the discussion continues.

    Pranam.

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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste Believer ji
    Does the law of land look into past karma(accumulated across different different births) of the individual before delivering justice?Not all are blessed with loaded gun yet or have the access to secure environment. They are forced cross dangerous environment packed with wolves and monsters. Life demands it. Guys who walked into Hotel Taj on that fateful day or the young Delhi girl who boarded the bus on that night never knew their karma. Law of land believe that they were innocents. Going by your aarguments I am forced to believe, it was the result of their karma. If so Afzal Guru or Kazab or that juvenile kid should be presented with either Awards or we should replace Sriman Naaraayan with their photos. Didn't they sacrifice their lives in order to deliver justice to 180+ families or a send of early morning wrapper less gift to that Delhi parents.

    The M.B and Raamaayan speaks about undertaking right actions at the right time. Dashrath was empowered, Yudishtar was empowered. Even Duryodhan was empowered. If we think we aren't empowered to choose the right action then our understanding is flawed one. There's is nothing called action less period to buy it. Do the right thing every time and always.

    My view based on what i read, understood and implemented is that Forgiveness is a SIN that disturbs the equilibrium. Cane your misbehaving child or else you 'll end up creating monster.

    And that's a bigger and unpardanable SIN. The misbehaving child could be yourself or your environment based on the context.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste

    I didn't mean by instant reward. When I wait for 20+ years to secure a degree, I understand there won't be instant results.Teaching poor kid is good but if you knowingly offer knowledge and spaces to a Monster its bad. Bigger question is how to foresee. That's where parenting comes into play. I can go on for ever solving the puzzle. But the bottom line is Right actions at right time. Not postponement.

    One can twist my statement to offer a self contradicting view.

    I rest my case.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste Anirudhji,

    I have read a saying of Sri Sharada Devi, the consort of Sri Ramakrishna, that forgiveness is tapasya itself.

    The inclination to punish in a personal sense, stems from hatred,ego and desire for revenge, which increases karma rather than reducing it. Forgiveness , on the other hand, is an austerity in itself , which increases equanimity of mind. This however should be done with the right perspective that the divine is also present in the wrong-doer, and he had only committed the wrong action out of ignorance.

    In society , however, wrong-doers must be punished in the court of law and justice in order to set a deterrent to potential offenders. Here, punishment is not based on emotive reactivity, but on objective thinking and clear reasoning, and no karma is incurred thus.

    Pranams.

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