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Thread: Forgiveness. What's it?

  1. #11
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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste Believer,

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    I hate to digress, but a clarification of the above statement is in order.

    When Kauravas refused to give the kingdom back to the Pandavas, in order to avoid a war, Pandavas countered that Duryodhan give them just five villages to rule so that each brother will have a place to live. They decided to fight only because Duryodhan refused to give them even a square inch of the territory. Even then Arjun got cold feet at the battleground and had to be exhorted by Shri Krishan Himself through the narration of Bhagwad Gita before Arjun finally decided to fight. This seems like Pandavas were less concerned about their Dharma and the welfare of *their* people (in the whole kingdom) and more with their personal needs. They were perfectly willing to accept an unjust solution to avoid a physical skirmish. This does not sound good but that is what the historical records state. Pandavas must have had some other compulsions besides the desire to not spill blood that initially made them present unjust proposals. Any comments?
    You are right. My understanding is this :

    This is what Pandavas thought. They thought that they had to fight for their own right and the war was for their own cause alone. This was the reason that Arjuna felt that it was not worth the bloodshed. However, the destiny had decided it to be the war of Dharma Vs the Adharma and Arjuna was the chosen hero to lead the Pandavas in this war. We know from Mahabharata that the Kauravas didn't follow the path of Dharma. The character of Shakuni, Duryodhana etc. are depicted as symbols of evils. They were determined to do anything to keep themselves in the throne. So, we can very well imagine the life of common men in their rule. This was the rule where a woman was considered a thing just for enjoyment and her prestige as a human being was of no value. So, there was a decline of Dharma to an unacceptable level.

    This decline of Dharma is also echoed in Lord Krishna's words, "Yadaa yadaa hi dharmasya glaani bhavati bharat". So, this war was predestined for rooting out Adharma spread in the society and for re-establishing Dharma even though the Pandavas thought it otherwise initially until Lord Krishna made them understand the whole thing by narrating Bhagwad Gita.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  2. #12
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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste Believer ji and Devotee ji

    If things are happening at a personal level, then there is room for forgiveness or no response. You might say something innocent which is taken as an offense by me. Either I can let it go or decide to teach you a lesson. So, I sit there like a coiled snake waiting for an opportunity to get back at you. As soon opportunity arises, I heap insults at you or even get physical. That type of behavior on my part does not seem right.

    Forgiveness is at personal level for personal damages. If someone attacks me, I am within my legal rights to start a counter-attack on him in my defense and it is within Dharma to do that i.e. in that action I don't accrue any sin if my counter-attack is just to ensure my safeguards. However, I have another option to forgive him and suffer the pains afflicted on me without attacking him. This too is within my legal and Dharmic rights but here I accrue merits of choosing forgiveness over my right of counter-attack.
    I contemplated on the replies for few days. What's personal attack? How do classify it? What's it boundary?

    I have been taught, an accepted behavior will be repeated. If you allow your neighbour or your ownself or your friends& foes to act in a certain way, you are signing a unwritten contract that you are FINE with the behavior and shall be accepted in the future.

    Our fore fathers succumbed to forced conversions, now we have laws to protect perpetrators. Isn't it? It's proved that invading KINGS forcibly converted our fore fathers. Now constitution wonders whether it's OK to say or not to say "BHAARAT MAATA KI JAI".

    How will I accrue credentials if I allow a weed to grow. The only exception is your (forgiving) act should bring a positive change in doers behavior. Can you guarantee such outcome?

    Now look at the problem from another angle. I keep pardoning my child's tantrums like fuzzy eating inturn it will lead malnutrition. What have I achieved? Here I want to stress that if you are forgiving someone's mistake make sure it isn't repeated.

    I will come back to coiled snake now. Assume KARMA as an living entity. What's it doing? Dashrath had to die without getting a chance to see any of his children because of his past act. He had the skill to use shabd bedi baan (arrows that strike the target based on the source of sound target generated) and he never wanted to hurt poor innocent crippled old parents. Did he? Acquisition of great Knowledge brings along great responsibilities with it. When you have born as a human being, you are already a blessed soul. Isn't it?

    I don't expect you to change your opinions but please ponder on the points I have brought forward.

    Take the first sarga of Sundara kaandam. Shree Hanuman tacitly maneuver his long flight. When he had to kill simhika, he killed her. When he had to convince Mount Meru he convinced him without fighting.

    I conclude your choice of action should be to rectify the course of action of the situation that demands it. That's what I say it as Right action at the right time. It could probably be forgiveness also.

    The distinct difference is you are responsible for the result of your act of forgiveness. And you mere forgiving the culprit (no matter the type of crime) won't accrue PUNYA because of the obvious reasons. Torturous death of Bheeshma is an example.

    I thank Sreeman Naaraayan for having bestowed situations and ability to derive meanings out of it. I would have been an self centered atheist had he not touched my life. Whatever I have said here is completely based on my practical experiences and my scriptural understanding.

    How I arrive at a conclusion? I cross check whether a particular postulate contradicts with itself? If it does, then I understand my understanding is incorrect.

    I conclude by saying Let Mr kalki to take his sweet time to descend, meanwhile, let's learn to live a truthful action oriented life.

    Thanks...
    Anirudh...

  3. #13
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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Post deleted....
    Last edited by Anirudh; 04 July 2016 at 04:37 AM.
    Anirudh...

  4. #14
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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste,

    Thank you for taking the time to think over some of our responses before making your post. I really appreciate that.

    This is a very complex subject with no black and white answers. Granted that an accepted bad behavior will be repeated by the perpetrator, but look at it from another angle; am I a self styled cop to punish everyone doing something wrong in my presence? If I am not the doer and the Divine is getting things done through us humans, can't He distribute the task of meeting out of punishment to the evildoers to a large number of people rather than turning to me to punish the whole world for their excesses? Would forgiveness on my part some of the time not be converted to getting the wrong doers punished through somebody else, as the law of karma states that the wrongdoer WILL be punished for his actions. By being forgiving at least some of the time will give others a chance to be of service to the Divine and provide me with some peace of mind.

    Raja Dashrath never wanted to hurt Sharvan but he was okay with killing some innocent animals for his amusement/training? Some poor thirsty parents never heard their son again because a king was practicing his archery skills? The law of karma made him go through a similar experience. So, I don't really have any sympathy for Raja Dashrath.

    Pranam.

  5. #15
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    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste Believer ji

    We are on the same page w.r.t Raja Dashrath's fate (apologize, I should have added salutation). Agreed, Killing animals as a past times is against Dharma.

    Over all I stress on the quality "of taking ownership of your actions". We are blessed with the ability to know the difference between good and bad. So I wish to know whether it's Sriman Naaraayan who persuade me to undertake bad actions or my buddhi. I will continue to contemplate on forgiveness by reading more of V.A. and our epics. As a first we should define forgiveness if we haven't done it already (in this thread). I 'll read our conversation again with an open mind and post my reply.

    If you think you can add more value to this thread please add the needed details.

    Slowly and steadily I am reaching a conclusion that We are unhappy because of five qualities.

    They are a) Anger b) Sorrow c) Lust d) Fear and finally Vengeance/Revenge. Out of these five lust is one thing that keeps craving more of anything that you want. (*BTW, my version of lust is not limited to sexual desires alone).

    If you can remember, few months ago I had sent a PM requesting on the probable ways to keep them under check. All my recent threads are to explore more. I have a feeling that our scriptural values have been used against us by invaders and lack of clear knowledge has turned us into eunuchs. I hope our discussions will help us to understand our values and help our children.

    Thanks for your valuable input....
    Anirudh...

  6. #16

    Re: Forgiveness. What's it?

    Namaste Anirudhji,

    I have read a saying of Sri Sharada Devi, the consort of Sri Ramakrishna, that forgiveness is tapasya itself.

    The inclination to punish in a personal sense, stems from hatred,ego and desire for revenge, which increases karma rather than reducing it. Forgiveness , on the other hand, is an austerity in itself , which increases equanimity of mind. This however should be done with the right perspective that the divine is also present in the wrong-doer, and he had only committed the wrong action out of ignorance.

    In society , however, wrong-doers must be punished in the court of law and justice in order to set a deterrent to potential offenders. Here, punishment is not based on emotive reactivity, but on objective thinking and clear reasoning, and no karma is incurred thus.

    Pranams.

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