Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24

Thread: observations

  1. #11
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    65
    Posts
    7,673
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: observations

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté & hello,

    from the post above,
    Now what rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi¹ offers is quite profound as you would think. On the surface it looks pretty straight forward yet to click down into the
    ‘cream’ of what he says also takes another master, abhinavaguptaji and his offer of the bhāgavadgītā termed the bhāgavadgītārthasaṁgraha
    śreyo hi jñānam abhyāsāj jñānād dhyānaṃ viśiṣyate |
    dhyānāt karmaphalatyāgas tyāgāc chāntir anantaram || 12.12

    When we look to this śloka found within the bhāgavadgītārthasaṁgraha¹ , we are told by svāmī lakṣman-jū who is doing the translation for us that ‘knowledge is better than doing practice’. But there is a ~catch~ to this and it is not what it appears to be. How so? Jñānam is āveśātama or knowledge is entry into God consciousness i.e. fixing the mind on the point of God consciousness. That is why it is better than practice (abhyāsācchreyaḥ).
    If there is knowledge, dhyāna ( meditation) becomes successful and by dhyāna karma phalatyāga you can leave aside all of the asking of fruits from your actions.

    This aligns nicely to what rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi said in the last post above:
    karmaphalatyāgaḥ niṣkama (some spell niskama) karma as of a jñāni , or action without desire, is superior to knowledge with practice.

    In the final analysis this is called yoga in action. Rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi says it is equal to the jñāni who acts without desire and it is superior to knowledge with practice. Why so? Because the jñāni is stabilized in God Consciousness. There is also another name used for this jñāni and it is stithiprajñāna or sthita+pra+jñāna ...
    sthita स्थित (standing) + pra प्र (filled, excessively) + jñāna ज्ञान (knowing, highest knowledge)
    Hence it is that being that is firmly standing in the highest knowledge and that is of Self, Being, brahman. That is why knowledge (code for stithiprajñāna) is better than practice.

    When one is standing (sthita) and firmly established in Self/Being then actions are considered karma and kriyā yoga. This person has now taken to heart kṛṣṇaḥ-jī’s most sublime instuction that he offers in chapter 2 of the bhāgavadgītā : yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī - established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma) ||2.48

    In my humble opinion, this is the cornerstone of the bhāgavadgītā.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ


    terms


    • bhāgavadgītārthasaṁgraha = bhāgavadgītā + artha + saṁgraha = the song of the Lord + aim, purpose + sum, completely, entirely
      • What abhinavagupta-ji does is sum up (saṁgraha) the purpose (artha) of each chapter , or concluding remarks. He also adds a view more verses to the overall śastra ( 716 vs. the classical 700 verses). His translastion ( bhāṣya or commentary) is from the point of view of trika śāstra or non-dual kaśmir śaivism which on occasion is called svātantryavada

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #12
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    65
    Posts
    7,673
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: observations

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté & hello,
    · I read a bumper sticker that said, If I am not what I do, then who am I ?
    · I read, I have no use for books for my spiritual development, it is of no value, just words.
    · A conversation with a friend brought out the notion of being reborn... the conversation was coming back again and again and the joke ( as I said it) was really on us...
    I would like to offer the reader a point of view on knowledge that comes from a few sources. The 1st part of the offer needs to be developed to set the stage so the reader yields the highest insight offered. This requires you, the reader to be a bit patient as this theme is framed and foundation laid. The sources are the bhagavadgītā, śiva-śutras, and śiva-śutras-vimarśinī.

    bhagavadgītā
    Chapter 4 (called jñānayoga) of the bhagavadgītā offers us the following:

    न हि ज्ञानेन सदृशं पवित्रमिह विद्यते।
    तत्स्वयं योगसंसिद्धः कालेनात्मनि विन्दति॥३८॥
    na hi jñānena sadṛśaṁ pavitramiha vidyate|
    tatsvayaṁ yogasaṁsiddhaḥ kālenātmani vindati||38||

    truly, in this world (iha) without doubt (hi) there is nothing (na) so purifying (pavitra) & fit/proper/suitable (sadṛśaṁ) as knowledge (jñānena); he who is perfected in yoga (yogasaṁsiddhaḥ) of himself (svayaṁ) finds (vindati) that (tat) in time (kāla) this with his Self (ātmani).

    There is nothing so purifying as knowledge. This knowledge comes to perfection (siddhaḥ) when one’s
    self is aligned to Self. Another way of saying, Self-referral. Everything is viewed from the Self frame-of-reference. One is once again established in Being ~ tanmaya¹~.

    śiva-śutras - 1st chapter, śambhavopāya
    So, what of this knowledge? We move over to the śiva-śutras that has been offered to us by vasugupata-ji. It informs us in the 2nd śloka of the following:
    • jñānaṁ bandhaḥ - knowing is bondage.

    Well this is much different than what we just read in the bhagavadgītā. What are we missing ? We are told by kṣemarāja in his commentary on the śiva-śutras ( called śiva-śutras vimarśinī ) that when we connect this 2nd śloka with the 1st śloka (which is acceptable and normal to do) , the 2nd śloka becomes:
    • ajñānaṁ bandhaḥ - not knowing is bondage

    Now we’re getting somewhere ? Well, maybe with a bit more insight by kṣemarāja-ji.
    We are told jñānaṁ bandhaḥ can also be read as ajñānaṁ bandhaḥ. This says, knowing is bondage and not knowing is bondage. He (kṣemarāja-ji) says to look at it this way:
    • knowing differentiated knowledge is bondage and not knowing undifferentiated knowledge is bondage.

    The way we think (as humans) , most are ~ trained¹~ to perceive that the second statement offered is the answer or the opposite of the first statement. Example:
    · What goes up must come down
    · Where there is smoke there must be fire
    Well in this case, knowing differentiated knowledge is bondage and not knowing undifferentiated knowledge is bondage, we are given the same answer from two complimentary , yet seemingly opposite, points. This will tie into the bhagavadgītā verse (4.38) brilliantly, yet it needs to be developed just a bit more. Let me take this up in the next post.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    terms

    • tanmaya - made up of that , absorbed in or identical with that
    • kṣemarāja-ji - śiṣya of abhinavagupta; both luminaries within non-dual kaśmir śaivism
    • trained: an approach/form of syllogism - reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn (whether valid or not) from two given or assumed propositions. Example: animals have four legs-> dogs are animals -> therefore dogs have four legs

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #13
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    65
    Posts
    7,673
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: observations

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté & hello,

    continuing...
    knowing differentiated knowledge is bondage and not knowing undifferentiated knowledge is bondage. Knowing differentiated knowledge is bondage and not knowing undifferentiated knowledge is bondage, we are given the same answer from two complimentary , yet seemingly opposite, points. This will tie into the bhagavadgītā verse (4.38) brilliantly...
    First we need to define bondage. We can just say it is ignorance. Yet you can also say one is ~bound~ to body consciousness – that is, ‘I’ am the body, a statement of ignorance of one’s true essence. Others say this bound person continues to go from life-to-life again and again ‘bound’ to being stuck in the human condition of saṁsāra1.

    differentiated and undifferentiated

    • differentiated knowledge is that of things, objects, ideas constrained by space, time, and cause. It is fractional knowledge of the world and what is contained within the relative portion of it. A Ph.D knows an abundant about of information, but that is of his/her subject they specialized in. Having two or three Ph.D’s suggest the depth in 3 subjects. Think of how many things one can know – from physics , chemistry, sociology, psychology, medicine, astrophysics, metallurgy, to 1000’s of other things. All these levels of knowledge is the field of differentiated knowledge. It is considered apūrṇa or non-fullness. One must agree that this knowledge has made life events better, more comforts and perhaps an easier life-style for us all, yet it is still non-fullness.
    • undifferentiated knowledge – is the field of Being, of wholeness (pūrṇa). There is no fractionalization, there is no cycle of life-after-life. It is the stainless, fullness of Being.


    Now we can ‘decode’ this statement:
    • knowing differentiated knowledge is bondage and not knowing undifferentiated knowledge is bondage.

    Knowing only the world of things and ideas and not knowing the wholeness (pūrṇa), fullness of Being, of one’s essential (sāraḥ) Self is bondage.

    This aligns perfectly to kṛṣṇaḥ -jī’s words - truly, in this world (iha) without doubt (hi) there is nothing (na) so purifying (pavitra) & fit/proper/suitable (sadṛśaṁ) as knowledge (jñānena).
    Said another way, truly in this field of diversity, of differentiated consciousness, there is nothing so suitable (sadṛśaṁ) that will bring wholeness, fullness, completeness to one’s self than the direct experience of undifferentiated knowledge which is one’s own Self, Being, Pure Awareness.

    So, we need to be a bit cautious here with words as they tend to cause mischief. When we’re talking of undifferentiated knowledge , it is not reading about Self, Being, Pure Awareness but the immersion in to this wholeness again and again... that is the 'purifying' part (pavitra) that is fit/proper/suitable (sadṛśaṁ) for us. This is ~direct~ knowledge and not second hand information. One can read about the taste of a banana, know its physical makeup, chemistry, a description of what the banana may taste like ( that would be differentiated knowledge); but once one bites the banana, then one ‘knows’ the banana’s flavor by direct experience, direct knowledge.

    apūrṇammanyata
    When we are in this human condition we think we’re apūrṇammanyata2 or thinking oneself as not whole or full. What is the ‘proof point’ of this ? The desire for more, the thought of:
    • if I only had this
    • the wish for that new _____(fill in the blank),
    • that desire for that ______ (fill in the blank),
    • the thought that I am unhappy or I have lost my happiness,
    • I am sad
    • I am too big, I am too small, I am healthy, unhealthy, tired, etc.
    • I am not fast enough , I am too slow in learning, running jumping, getting and acquiring things,
    • I am not smart enough; I am too smart for my own good
    • I am not ____ (fill in the blank); I thought I was _____(fill in the blank)

    All these things suggest the need for more... and in the final analysis all these things are, in essence, the desire to re-establish your wholeness once again though gaining more or pushing away things that make you less; the wise say to re-recognize your fullness once again. It is this ‘blemish’ of limitation, of the world of limits, of differentiated awareness. It is therefore named āṇavamala or the blemish (mala) of limitation/smallness (āṇava).
    We now have the alignment of the bhagavadgītā, śiva-śutras & śiva-śutra-vimarśinī.

    Let’s add one more;
    garuḍa purāṇa (2.47.52)
    Just as the bhagavadgītā speaks of ~purifying~ we get another sense of this here.

    apavitraḥ pavitrau vā

    sarvāvastām gataupi vā |
    yaḥ smarat pundarīkākśam
    sa bhāhyābhyantaraḥ suciḥ ||

    This sūkta says ( in brief)
    Whether one is pure or impure, whether all places are permeated by purity or impurity, whoever opens himself to the Lotus Eyed One gains inner and outer purity.
    This is confirming what we have just reviewed. The sūkta says if one opens him/her self to the Lotus Eyed One , this person gains inner and outer purity. The Lotus Eyed One is another way of saying Pure Awareness, Being, Self. Using kṛṣṇaḥ-jī’s teaching He would say nothing is so purifying as opening your awareness to this pure undifferentiated awareness. When this occurs we are coached by kṣemarāja3 who informs us of the following:
    vedakaṁ vedyamekaṁ tu tattvaṁ nāstyaśucistataḥ||

    This says that the knower and knowable ( i.e. the world/universe) are certainly one true principle (tattva) and therefore (or for that reason) there is nothing that is impure or aśuciḥ.

    The point is this: the garuḍa purāṇa says even if you think there is pure or impure once you have re-established Self/Being/Pure Awareness as your frame of reference, then you come to recognize what kṣemarāja is telling us; you and all this have been pure from the beginning.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    terms
    1.saṁsāra passing through a succession of states , circuit of mundane existence. Within the aitareyopaniṣat ( some spell aitareya upaniṣad) 1.1.2, the name given for earth is maram – the field of death. The notion is this life-death cycle again and again e.g. bound to this cycle.
    2. a+pūrṇam+manyata – not (a) + wholeness (pūrṇam) + thinking of oneself to be (manyata)
    3. kṣemarāja - the śivasūtra-s were revealed to vasugupta-ji. The most authoritative writing/commentary on this book/revelation is offered by kṣemarāja and is called śivasūtravimarśinī-hṛdaya. This says the examination, knowledge discussion (vimarśa) of the śiva s
    ūtra-s. The notion of hṛdaya means 'heart', suggesting the core, the inner most. Hence it now says, the inner most knowledge being discussed on the śiva sūtra-s.

    Last edited by yajvan; 31 December 2016 at 05:42 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    65
    Posts
    7,673
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: observations

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté & hello,

    • I read a bumper sticker that said, If I am not what I do, then who am I ?
    • I read, I have no use for books for my spiritual development, it is of no value, just words.
    • A conversation with a friend brought out the notion of being reborn... the conversation was coming back again and again and the joke ( as I said it) was really on us...

    Q: Is an intellectual understanding of the Truth necessary?
    maṇa mahaṛṣi: Yes. Otherwise, why does not the person realize God or the Self at once? i.e. as soon as he/she is told that God is all or the Self is all ? That shows some wavering on the listener's part. He/she must argue with him/her-self and gradually convince him/her self of the Truth before it becomes firm.

    This answer becomes a gateway to what is offered in the gauḍapādiyakārikā1 (gauḍapādiya-kārikā's), 2nd chapter ,29th verse. It says the following:

    यं भावं दर्शयेद्यस्य तं भावं स तु पश्यति ।
    तं चावति स भूत्वासौ तद्ग्रहः समुपैति तम् ॥ २९

    yaṃ bhāvaṃ darśayedyasya taṃ bhāvaṃ sa tu paśyati |
    taṃ cāvati sa bhūtvāsau tadgrahaḥ samupaiti tam || 29

    this says,
    he (the inquirer) cognizes/views/takes-in only that idea that is presented to him. It (ātman) assumes the form (of what is cognized) and thus protects (the inquirer). Possessed by that (idea) he realizes it (as the sole essence).

    A few things are needed to decode this verse:

    • ātman = truth; that is the final analysis that all this ( including the inquirer/ śiṣya) is nothing but ātman. This ātman is another term for brahman or pure awareness, pure Being.
    • the idea presented to him/her = what is offered to him/her by words of the teacher/master – this can be by the lips or via reading the śāstra-s & āgama-s ( scriptures).
    • assumes the form = ātman / Being is all and takes on many shapes and forms. It is coming to the student (śiṣya) in the form that is being presented to him via the teacher or śāstra-s & āgama-s.
    • possessed by that = that which has been presented to him/her he is uplifted and it protects him.


    The caveat & insight
    The śiṣya accepts the words offered ( presented to him ) as the highest truth. The teacher, in the beginning, is mindful of the limited intellectual capacity of the śiṣya and meters out the knowledge accordingly. This, in fact, protects the student from confusion. In return the śiṣya/student offers his/her single-minded devotion to that teaching to such an extent that he/she becomes intolerant to all other viewpoints.

    He/she who takes a particular view/school (dárśana) as the highest Reality and condemns other views/schools as untrue has not realized the highest truth. Now, why would that be ?

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    1. gauḍapādacharya’s work is called the māṇḍūkyopaniṣatkārikā (māṇḍūkya-upaniṣad-kārikā), also known as gauḍapādiyakārikā, done in 215 verses , 4 chapters. It is his commentary of one of the central upaniṣad-s ( number 3 out of the top 10) within vedānta thought.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15

    Re: observations

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,


    I agree with the above post, in my experience I often read, talk about and post with "some confidence" things that are above my realization. I have no problem with this as its good to reach for the next rung of the ladder even before one has the ability to put a firm foot on it, as long as as I can even in my own words repeat what Shastra and past and present acharaya's, guru's, Rishis and said awakened beings have said. The confidence arises from sradhha, not faith but confidence based on some experience. For example if someone is lost and they give directions on a map, go down the road for 1 kilometer you will see a junction with a tree and turn left, travel a bit futher then you will come to a bridge, go under the bridge and then you will see a farm house and take the next right, giving landmarks. So when one travels and see's that the early instructions were correct then it builds confidence that were on the right path and one can then trust the rest of the directions and have confidence that one is on the right route, this is how I see Shraddha, which then gives rise to virya or energy, so confidence is shraddha that in turn gives energy, we know we are going in right way even if not there.




    In some commentaries and readings in the past on gaudapada's karika as I am not sure of the Sanskrit from the be post in context I have heard that he calls this a type of imagination, different from fantasy. So in the early stages we imagine a Atma, or we have a conceived or intellectual idea of the Atma, I have full Sraddha that behind these forms and forms is an Atma, but although its the essence of my being and is obscured by mind I have full Sraddha that I am Atma.



    mandukya upanishad it is explained that in this jagat state or waking state where mind, intellect, senses and ego operate as the power of the conditioned soul one has to first imagine this knowledge. Imagination is not fantasy, its a contemplation or reflection within the mind of spiritual truths, by strengthening that imagination or vision one gradually absorbs oneself through samadhi into the real thing . This knowledge is very beautiful, Gita means song or poem, the rishis spoke in poems and deep mystical language. English will never suffice.


    In the beginning stages we need concepts, concepts are good as long as we dont get stuck in them, one concept should lead to another while keeping the former concept to some degree.

    will quote a few things as others can say things better than me. I hope I dont over labour this but its an important subject to be understood and balanced.

    It should be remembered that the Ultimate Truth reveals Itself in a
    plane of consciousness higher than those in which these speeches and thoughts move, and that the methods of philosophical thinking and the expressions of thoughts in appropriate linguistic forms are only means to the purification and enlightenment and concentration of the empirical consciousness and its elevation to the higher planes.

    Reality in the Samadhi state does not for his own satisfaction feel any
    necessity for the formation of any intellectual conception, since to him this experience is the most perfectly integrated knowledge of all possible existences in the universe and beyond it and this experience carries its certainty within itself. He enjoys the bliss of this experience, for herein he feels the fulfillment of his knowledge, the fulfilment of his life, the fulfillment of his mind and heart and intellect. Herein he becomes perfectly united with the Absolute Truth.

    Excerpts from Goraknaths Philosophy.




    THE PATH OF YOGA
    A good many philosophers, having realised the inherent weakness of
    the method of logical reasoning and intellectual theorising as a means to the perfect satisfaction of the innermost demand of the soul for the attainment of the Absolute Truth, have turned towards the method of spiritual self discipline.

    One great Western philosopher has said that "Learned ignorance
    is the end of philosophy and the beginning of religion". Religion here does not of course mean blind submission to any particular dogma or creed or performance of certain prescribed rites and ceremonies; but it means systematic discipline of the body, the senses, the mind, the intellect and the heart, under expert guidance, for the purification and refinement of the entire being of a man and the elevation of the empirical consciousness to higher and higher spiritual planes, so as ultimately to make it fit for being perfectly illumined by the light of the Absolute Truth. This is the path of Yoga.

    The most illustrious philosopher of ancient Greece, who was proclaimed
    by the Oracle of Delphi as the wisest man of the age, gravely said
    that his wisdom perhaps lay in the fact that "I know that I know nothing".This great Guru of many great philosophers frankly confessed that with all his philosophical reflections he could not reach the Ultimate Truth which his heart craved for.


    The term Philosophy itself is very significant in this connection; it
    carries the sense of its own inherent limitation with it. It means love of
    wisdom, and not the perfect attainment of wisdom. It implies sincere and earnest pursuit of Truth, and not the direct realisation of Truth. A Philosopher, so long as he relies solely upon logical reasoning and intellectual argumentation, may continually advance towards the Truth with all the earnestness of his heart, but will never reach it. In his very attempt to make the Absolute Truth an object of his logical conception and intellectual comprehension, the Absolute Truth eludes his grasp. He always searches and misses.

    His Eternal Beloved never unveils Himself to his logical
    intellect.

    He has to transcend his logical intellect in order to be united with the Transcendent Truth. His consciousness has to rise above the domain of Space, Time and Relativity in order to be in the closest embrace of the Infinite Eternal Absolute Truth. This is the path of True Religion. This is the path of Yoga.

    After a good deal of deep thinking, the Upanishadic Rishi also came
    to the conclusion that Atma is not attainable by means of philosophical dissertation (pravacana) or intellectual acumen (medha) or extensive study(vahu sruta); It is attainable only by him to whom It reveals itself (Yameva esha brinute tena labhyah). A truth-seeker has however to make his consciousness fit for the self-relevation of Atma. It does not reveal itself to the consciousness of a person, howsoever intellectually gifted he may be, unless he is free from all vices and evil propensities, unless his mind is pure and steady and calm and tranquil, unless his entire consciousness is with intense
    longing directed towards the Divine Light.


    So long as the sense of Ego predominates in the consciousness of a person, so long as he thinks that by dint of his own intellectual power he will unveil the true nature of Atma, the veil will remain in the form of his egoistic vanity. For the attainment of fitness for the self-revelation of Atma, the consciousness must be freed from the sense of Ego as well as all egoistic desires and attachments and inclinations of the mind. It is upon moral and spiritual self-preparation of the truth-seeker that fitness for Truth-realisation depends. This means the
    systematic practice of Yoga. This is the conclusion at which the Upanishadic Rishi arrived.


    इिन्द्रयेभ्यः परा ह्यथार्अथ�भ्यश्च परं मनः।
    मनसस्तुपरा बु�द्धबुर्द्धेरात्मा महान्परः॥१०॥

    indriyebhyaḥ parā hy arthā, arthebhyaś ca param manaḥ,
    manasaś ca parā buddhir buddher ātmā mahān paraḥ. (10)

    Beyond the senses are the rudiments of objects, beyond
    these rudiments is the mind, beyond the mind is the
    intellect, beyond the intellect is the great Self. (I.3.10)



    The Vedanta deals with a theme beyond the finite views of phenomena. The subject dealt with in that particular philosophy is not confined to any part of the material space, any definite span of time or any substance of this Universe. The activities of a being are measured in time, the playground of a being either linear, superficial or cubical is accommodated in space and the limited subjectivity or fleshly tabernacular entity is confirmed to phenomena. The Vedantic scheme is quite different from such limited structural monuments though some people attempted to bring Vedanta within the prison bars of the senses.
    Srila Bhatisiddhanta Saraswati The Vedanta~It's Morphology and Ontology.



    The highest spiritual essence can be realized only by inner intuitive contact( pratibodha), not by logical reasoning. The fundamental essence of man is the inner illumination of pure thought, which is also the ultimate principle underlying all things. This immortal essence cannot be grasped by the intellect, but only realized by superior intuition(pratibodha), and this is the mysticism of the Upanishads.
    Brief summation on Hindu Mysticism ~S.N Dasgupta



    Brahma-bindu Upanishad
    Words strung together in compilations, serve only to
    protect and hide knowledge, as husk and chaff the grain ; let
    the wise look for the grain and cast away the chaff of words
    when that grain of truth has been found.'



    muṇḍaka upaniṣad – 3.2.3
    nāyamātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena |
    yamevaiṣa vṛṇute tena labhyastasyaiṣa ātmā vivṛṇute tanūṃ svām || 3 ||


    One cannot attain to Self - knowledge except through the Self itself. How can the mind, which is not- Self, reveal the Self ~ Avadhuta Gita.


    Scholars ( not Dharmic Scholars ) are very good, in fact sometimes excellent at epistemology, getting the facts right, studying emprically sometimes they are the best authority, but if they are just empirical and logical they miss something, something is just not there, perhaps its experience, insight.

    In some traditions they say that Dharma never leaves nama and rupa, it does not go oustide our skin but remains only in our body and mind and that is what needs to be purified to realize Truth in a without any shadow of doubt.

    Personally I read almost everyday, but not in a way like reading a novel, when I read books or commentaries after a while I can see that I am just buying into their understanding, their ideas rather then being inspired introspectively or it being helpful to my own insights, it then starts to be slightly absract and its hard to apply organically.

    One translation of Suta I heard is clues, codes along these lines, they are not meant to be taken literally, so I have found even if I read alot, a short passage is enough to give me a thought to then churn over and slowly digest, then more meaning comes out more things are revealed, this is then finding some continuity , where one see's the same essence or a joint essence in whatever I read or study.

    Often I have found more meaning, great meaning and even if its just scratching the surface with one sanksrit word that can help me go more inward. samadhi is one, yes Samdhi state is very high, and some traditions use the samadhi as the highest Absolute within Shastra. The word as you know much better than me is compounded between sama and dhi. Sama or one meaning is equanimity, which is the basis of Self realization, without sama then its hard to get the fruits of sadhana, and dhi while translated as intellect isnt always intellect as in academic or empirical, one way that I have translated it ( and only for my own refrence) is supramundane facility or higher insight that can penetrate the mind and is the support for for higher birth into higher knowledge. So its intorpsective, subtle and connected to higher conscious sadhana and upaya, so when sama equanimity is aligned with the supra mundane facilty of dhi in a mature state we gain our original essence and come to know Atma.

    I have many time in the past got called stupid, even if its not direct I know they are pointing to that meaning, my grammar and spelling is poor ( they are my greatest guru's because they push me more inward) , I left school by mutual agreement when I was 15, this is perhaps one the best things that ever happened to me, and seeing how modern translations of Dharma is so close to modern education like 1+1=2 never meant anything to me, it never helped me understand what was going on in my life, so if they say turn right I will turn left , it may annoy people but it helped me and I know even without verification from others that my understanding is getting better and harder to explain, especially in this format and only dharma shastras is my home. I am just trying to be personal here and share some experience to back up the nature of my post.

    Why is it, even among sadhaka who have practiced for many years they still gets stuck in literal things, for example so much talk on cosmology and looking for revealed knowledge out there, and considering Bhumi as either globe or flat, when the way I understand it its about an inner experience, something very mystical and beyond ordinary senses.

    The essence of the epistimology of Vedanta is that mind, intellect , sense and ego is not sufficient to understand Brahman, as its not limited into any compounded being.

    i hope this makes sense, how to find the balance, between this intellect and imagination and some hardliners who say well it says it in the book, look its right there, cant you see are you blind or ignorant the acharays are impeccable, they cant be wrong so you must accept the word.

    Pranam
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 10 February 2017 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #16

    Re: observations

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    i was wondering if you would be so kind to talk about apurva, this word and meaning is something that may help to fit into study/sadhana or building the foundation of knowledge/action to gain experience where the study and practice has a result. I searched here and few places and would like you if possible to expand on the meaning and significance. I get a lot from your posts, you seem to have such a wonderful and broad way to explain on so many aspects and then bring it back to a single context.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apurva

    Pranam

  7. #17
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    65
    Posts
    7,673
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: observations

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté & hello,

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Namaste Yajvan Ji,
    i was wondering if you would be so kind to talk about apurva
    Pranam
    With this apūrva1 idea, we get involved with the pūrva mīmāṁsā school or śākhā2. It is not a casual discussion. Why so ? It is predicated upon jaimini’s mīmāṁsā sūtra-s , to really understand this school. This is no ~lite~ subject matter.

    We could compare and contrast this school within the 6 classical schools3 recognized ( albeit there are more schools too). That may be of use, and if so requested by several HDF members, perhaps worth the effort & done in another folder.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    terms
    1. apūrva - not having existed before , quite new
    2. śākhā = a branch, or a limb, hence a ~ school~ ; a branch or school of the veda; note that ‘sakha’ is a friend, companion suggesting the companion of a school or view/philosophical outlook.
    3. 6 classical schools or saḍ darśana or the 6 schools of vision, seeing, sight. We know them as :

    • sāṁkhya
    • yoga
    • vedānta (sometimes called uttara mīmāṃsā)
    • pūrva mīmāṃsā
    • nyāya
    • vaiśeṣika
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    65
    Posts
    7,673
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: observations

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté & hello,

    The caveat & insight
    He/she who takes a particular view/school (dárśana) as the highest Reality and condemns other views/schools as untrue has not realized the highest truth. Now, why would that be ?
    Note that if this sentence is incorrectly read it sounds like scolding, and that is not the case. The conclusion that this individual has not realized the highest truth is this:
    All the schools & its branches (śākhā = a branch, or a limb, hence a ~ school~ ) are none other than ātman. Think of it this way. A tree with all its branches and leafs are none other than an expression of the sap. Once you know the sap ( brahman/truth) any where you look at the tree you see the sap expressed! It can be the bark, the branch, leaf, the fruit, the flower , the buds, etc. All are none other than an expression of the sap.

    When one knows the highest truth ( brahman =ātman=Self=pure awareness) all that is seen is
    that
    . It doesn't matter what school, as the school is just another angle looking at the truth. The realized only see a school as another expression of truth, Being, Self.





    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ


    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #19

    Re: observations

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    1. You say that you do not scold the misunderstanding that seems to say that the sad dharshans oppose each or refute each other

    2. As its becoming more apparent that the only people who put forth that Indian religion and culture which has its basis in these 6 dharshans has purposely been mistranslated by protagonist and while I accept your style, maybe there should be some form of scolding which I dont mind doing

    3. I appreciate your comments to ask if there would be a general audience to understand the 6 dharshans as its a huge task as you say. It certainly is a lengthy task so for me personally although I would love to see online a comprehensive format, (and especially from you, as your writing at least for me is very inspiring and brought a wider understanding, or an understanding where the seeds are nurtured) In todays times we certainly do need someone to put in the right context synthesizing the two languages and cultures of Sanskrit and modern, I am not asking you to do that .

    4. For this post all I wanted was some help and some explanation about true intellectual understanding, does it need volumes of books to find alignment.

    5. As this is new to sanatana Dharma which includes me, its something that I want to know, what is the reason for success and failure, or helping one to avoid the traps that slows one down, make faster advancement.

    Pranam
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 12 February 2017 at 01:11 PM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    65
    Posts
    7,673
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: observations

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté & hello

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    1. You say that you do not scold the misunderstanding that seems to say that the sad dharshans oppose each or refute each other

    2. As its becoming more apparent that the only people who put forth that Indian religion and culture which has its basis in these 6 dharshans has purposely been mistranslated by protagonist and while I accept your style, maybe there should be some form of scolding which I dont mind doing

    3. I appreciate your comments to ask if there would be a general audience to understand the 6 dharshans as its a huge task as you say. It certainly is a lengthy task so for me personally although I would love to see online a comprehensive format, (and especially from you, as your writing at least for me is very inspiring and brought a wider understanding, or an understanding where the seeds are nurtured) In todays times we certainly do need someone to put in the right context synthesizing the two languages and cultures of Sanskrit and modern, I am not asking you to do that .

    4. For this post all I wanted was some help and some explanation about true intellectual understanding, does it need volumes of books to find alignment.

    5. As this is new to sanatana Dharma which includes me, its something that I want to know, what is the reason for success and failure, or helping one to avoid the traps that slows one down, make faster advancement.

    Pranam
    Let me offer a few things... Note that each number above can be its own post , so I wish not to derail this string, I will answer in brief ( to the best of my knowledge). If there is any one area you care to go deeper and wider, consider starting a new post and we can invite those that wish to participate.

    1. The 6 classical schools or saḍ darśana or the 6 schools of vision, seeing, sight are so complete in themselves that have been (mistakenly) viewed as stand alone views i.e. seperate schools. In fact when viewed as a group in total they give one a 360º view of reality.

    2. Scolding - if that is something you wish to do then there is a folder to accommodate this. It is the jalpa folder:
    http://hindudharmaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?71-Jalpa . Jalpa = disputes, and overbearing reply.

    3. Saḍ darśana - my recommendation is for one to read/study this 2 volume set called ' The Systems of Indian Philosophy ' by Subodh Kapoor.

    4. Intellectual understanding - does it need volumes of books? I think not. It needs deep comprehension. Books help craft this as a vehicle. Books also are a surrogate for being in the presence of good company - in the company of saints when one cannot actually be there. This is a form of sátsaṅga.

    5. The reason for success and failure... the short answer is success is born of sattva (sāttvkaṁ), it is not the means (to sattva). The implications are substantial . It is not by ~acting good~ that one unfolds, but by infusing the highest good (Being) in one's daily self that unfoldment occurs to ones delight. 'Unfoldment' = higher potential for effective actions. Now this comes from the śrīmad bhāgavad gītā 14.16. Please take a look.

    The second part of this answer is this...
    Kṛṣṇaḥ-jī informs us, unfathomable is the course of action (BG 4.17). What does this mean , and have you experienced this ? Simply stated , actions go far and wide and the results of those actions fructify at different times. Its as if you are walking down the street and you find something on the ground, say a gold coin, something of good fortune. Or a person walks across the street and (unfortunately) gets hit by a car. At that instant no action was induced to find the coin, or provoke a car to hit the person, it was just there. Like that, actions are unfathomable, as they come to fruition in time, space and cause. This is apūrva1, or unseen potency which bring about events from past actions, either individually or collective actions of a family group or society.

    So, what can one do to improve their success?
    Kṛṣṇa helps us here as he informs us in the 48th verse, chapter 2 - yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma). This is called skill in action. One learns how to perform actions for the greatest benefit to one's self, and society in one stroke.


    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    1. apūrva - not having existed before , quite new


    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 28 December 2010, 03:00 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •