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Thread: getting the whole story

  1. #11

    Re: getting the whole story

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    Thank you again for you time and patience, this post is in New to Sanatana Dharma I wanted to slow it down a bit and your helping to find some construct of the first important teaching about ma as part of maya or part of compound meaning. As you mentioned before ma means to measure. I just wanted to stick with this, no overly labour on it for a while.

    As I read your latest post and gave a wonderful example from Ramana Maharashi, who is a Supreme Role Model, is that first we need to learn true detachment from this attachment to false self, or as many say now small self "s" and saying the universe is illusion or that concept as of small "s" is a fixed eternal being, neither the "s" or the universe is fixed or static, this attachment causes all the problem, all the suffering, both within oneself and for all beings as a result of this view, or more than a view as an attachment, a defilement in consciousness.

    So there needs to be a loosening of this view of "s" the one who always measures, long or short, high and low, me and you, self and other. In fact its whats causing all the problems, both within and without. Were always measuring, things like judgement, prejudice, I am good, he is bad, or I am bad and he is good, when really all there is is Brahman, the whole thing, weather its manifestation or pure state of the uncreated unmeasurable aspect of the Supreme, in some way I dont see any difference between the two.

    so I was attempting not in a grammatical way trying to put some link between ma and avidya, or the measuring principle thats in the conditioned consciousness is ignorance on one level, although we need that faculty to function on a daily basis, same as the ego. We cant do away with ma and we cant do away with Ahamkara, what we do away with or are attempting to do away with is attachment, then everything can run smoothly, spontaneously and one see's only Him or Self or there is only Him or Self, but does detachment lead to an abstract of consciousness. As you say the answer is no , it leads to wholeness, to completeness fullness of that Being which is Self.

    I very much like this sloka

    सर्वं खल्विदं ब्रह्म तज्जलानिति शान्त उपासीत
    (sarvam khaluidam brahman tajjalān iti shānta upāsita) –
    "All this (collectively) is Brahman, indeed: what evolves from That, what dissolves in That, what breathes or functions in That, should be closely and calmly studied……." - (Chandogya Upanishad III.14.1)

    Pranam
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 04 December 2016 at 05:00 AM.

  2. #12
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    Re: getting the whole story

    hariḥ om̐
    ~~~~~~
    namasté & hello



    Let me offer just a few things that may help advance the conversation or at least improve the resolution of what we’re peering into.

    learning true detachment
    – detachment is not the means, but what occurs or blossoms along the way.

    attachment to false self
    – the self (small ‘s’) is not so much false as it is not the whole Self. Think of a lightbulb that is covered by a sheet. Some light eminates though the sheet but not its full brilliance. Like that, this small self is like a fraction or a beam of light that gets through and not the full brilliance. It is ~false~ only to the extent of not being the full/whole brilliance of Self.

    what we do away with or are attempting to do away with is attachment
    – attachment does not occur until we say ‘I’ or ‘mine’ or ‘me’. In all 3 of these cases these terms rise due to ahaṃkāra (अहंकार). If there is no ahaṃkāra how can anyone be attached to anything? Why ? Because I could not say ‘this is mine’, or ‘I’ want this or that. See the point?
    The first thing that rises when we awake in the morning is this ‘I’. See for yourself. Just before waking, within that quiet period still a bit in sleep and engaging in wake, there is this period this small gap...see what occurs. You will find this 'I' this 'me', this personality enage. This is what is meant by 'I' - this personality this ego we that as our self; our frame of reference as we think or perceive who we are. Yet look for this ‘I’ in deep sleep it is not there, right? But ‘you’ are there , you still exist. Yet you will say , but I am not aware of anything. That is correct your awareness is not directed to any-thing ( no object, thought, feeling, these are things) it resides in itself, it remains in its self unperturbed by any-thing. This is Being...
    this is the notion of what rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi said: your duty is to be, and not to be this or that. This is the steadiness of Self; the silence of Self. My teacher called it restful alertness. Your attention is not dragged here and there and caught in objects of experience... it remains settled in itSelf.

    You see, each night one settles into stillness again in deep sleep – then upon awakening this ‘I’ engages again and we are back into the fractured world of difference, and this Self participates as self ( small ‘s’) going here and there. So , one’s practice is to remain in Self even in activity; being restfully alert even while doing things. This is the definition of kriyā yoga.
    This is the instruction given by kṛṣṇa-ji (bhāgavad gītā chapt 2 verse 48) : yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma). One is steadfast in (the)Self, Being, pure awareness. One Is walking and even talking but restfully alert. One is accomplished in kriyā yoga which = karma yoga and has fulfilled the instructions of the Lord. This is the Blessing of knowing (the) Self.

    ... but doesn't enlightened people say I ? Yes. When we say I it is really small i and = to small 's'elf ; when they say I it is = to universal Self
    devoid of smallness, and infinite in nature... So, infinite and complete it too includes small self with no limits. You see , if Self is Being and
    all inclusive it must too include small self , but that no longer is one's frame of reference. Ones frame of reference is undifferentiated, un-fractured wholeness, fullness. One sees everything as the expansion of one's Self. This is the blessing.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #13
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    Re: getting the whole story

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    Great discussiontopic.

    My understanding ofthese is mostly in agreement with slight caveats


    1. Brahman is real
    2. The universe that the unrealized observe with their senses is an illusion
    3. Both the real & illusory universe are a miniscule projection of Brahman


    I would very muchlike to learn from your comments regarding my understanding.

  4. #14
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    Re: getting the whole story

    hariḥ om̐
    ~~~~~~
    namasté & hello

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    Great discussion topic.

    My understanding of these is mostly in agreement with slight caveats


    1. Brahman is real
    2. The universe that the unrealized observe with their senses is an illusion
    3. Both the real & illusory universe are a minuscule projection of Brahman


    I would very much like to learn from your comments regarding my understanding.
    I think devotee-ji did a fine job in addressing this type of question ( look to the 9th post in this string that is offered by him). He is saying it all depends on who is the perceiver. Another question that may be worthy of merit is what is meant by 'real' ? We can look at this if warranted.

    Now that said, there is another school the does not see māyā as the ~villian~. Where can you read about this? Look to this HDF post:

    http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthr...hlight=villian
    The view in this post aligns to a less confusing understanding ( at least for me).

    Now that said, here's how I would write your 3 point list:
    1. brahman is wholeness; there is no-thing that is not this.
    2. the universe that the unrealized experience is this wholeness (brahman) within boundaries
    3. both the bounded and unbounded is none other than brahman


    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 05 December 2016 at 09:16 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15

    Re: getting the whole story

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    Now that said, there is another school the does not see māyā as the ~villian~
    This was part of my question, does the school of Adi Shankara see Maya as the villain only, or does one then have to graduate in understanding into Kashmiri Shaivism, is that same understanding of Shakti not present in Adi Shankaras teaching.

    I also see it in this way, that maya is not the villain, the villain as I understand is avidya and avidya is that which measures, self, other, you, me, good, bad, like or not like and so on. We need some sort of measurement for the physical elements to work properly, or else we would become totally dysfunctional. So measurement ( ma ) in terms of ignorance that is our perception once removed, one then is only seeing One reality One Being, but that cant be described, we cant even describe and give each other the exact experience of drinking water.

    Also Maya is Devi, Laxmi, Shakti and that is always connected in traditions to the Supreme.

    In common problems of application in spiritual life with some teachings people think life is a dream, and the world is illusion, I see this only as building up neurosis and separation from reality, solipsism, hence the danger.

    Pranam

  6. #16
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    Re: getting the whole story

    hariḥ om̐
    ~~~~~~
    namasté & hello


    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Namaste Yajvan Ji,
    This was part of my question, does the school of Adi Shankara see Maya as the villain only, or does one then have to graduate in understanding into Kashmiri Shaivism, is that same understanding of Shakti not present in Adi Shankaras teaching.
    I cannot answer with any certainty on ādi śaṅkara-ji's views of villain or non-villain from his eyes yet he calls māyā out as the power of the Supreme or parameśa-śakti (vivekacūḍāmaṇi 110th verse); this then by definition answers your question on śakti , as this is the purest definition. It also infers 'non-villain' as I see it. Then who co-mingles this māyā as some 'bad' thing? In my opinion it is the protagonists\opponents of this school.

    This Being, wholeness, brahman, from a non-dual
    kaśmir śaivism v
    iew is īśvarādvaya darśasa – the school/vision that all is the Supreme; that is, there is nothing other than the Supreme. People then say, oh yes, I see this point - there is me and everything else from perfect space, to light waves, to cosmic rays to thoughts and emotions and _______( fill in the blank) it is all the Supreme. This is still off the mark. It means that you too are nothing less than That, even within boundaries, even before one's final unfoldment. Yet this view is not for everyone…

    abhinavagupta-ji says it this way:
    A black bee alone becomes intensely fond of the sweet fragrance of the ketaki flower
    but the honey bee does not. Only some having been set in motion by the Almighty
    though his grace develops interest in the utterly non-dual worship of His all-inclusive
    aspect, parama-bhairava.


    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 05 December 2016 at 07:09 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #17

    Re: getting the whole story

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    Thank you and I'll stick to the purest definition.

    Pranam
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 05 December 2016 at 08:51 PM.

  8. #18
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    Re: getting the whole story

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    I cannot answer with any certainty on ādi śaṅkara-ji's views of villain or non-villain from his eyes yet he calls māyā out as the power of the Supreme or parameśa-śaktḥi (vivekacūḍāmaṇi 110th verse); this then by definition answers your question on śakti , as this is the purest definition. It also infers 'non-villain' as I see it. Then who co-mingles this māyā as some 'bad' thing? In my opinion it is the protagonists\opponents of this school.
    The Gurus of Shankra's school don't consider MAyA as a villain. I have read comments of quite a few Gurus on this issue. In this school, MAyA is considered to be performing an important task of nudging the seeker towards the Reality and finally showing the hollowness of all attractions of this world. One of the Gurus has likened MaYa with a professional but ethical dancer who does everything to entertain her lover but slowly revealing the futility of all that attracts the lover and showing him that his true love and happiness lies in his real home. Once this task is over, the seeker loses his interest in such shows of MAyA and MAyA on getting the task accomplished, quietly bows out from the scene.

    On pondering over this, I have realised that MAyA indeed plays a very responsible and important role in revealing the Reality. My understanding on this issue is this :

    a) MAyA is the nature of Brahman. It is in action in one dimension (Relative existence) of the Reality where we all are and at the same time it doesn't exist in another dimension (the Absolute) of existence.

    b) MAyA is not its own cause. Its cause is Brahman and therefore its existence cannot be faulted on MAyA but on Brahman. It is Brahman who is responsible for the existence of MAyA and how it acts.

    c) Why does MAyA come into action ? The Upanishads say : "Sah Ikshat" ==> He (Brahman) desired. "Bahuh syamah" ==> That I should become many. This is the root desire which brings MAyA into action. Now, this root desire gives births to many entities which we call MAyA or the Prakriti ==> the Panchmahabhootas (the Earth, the Water, the Fire, the Air and the Sky), Mann (Observing and mind generating mind-waves), Buddhi (Intellect) and Ahamkaar (i-nesss-- sense of being a separate being from "others").
    With arising of all these entities within the world created by MAyA, there arise the desires for enjoying the things of this world with our senses and mind. MAyA creates enjoyable things in this MAyic world for fulfilling the desires of the beings but while playing this role, it never allows the being to get full satisfaction in the worldly enjoyments and that finally leaves the being disenchanted with this MAyic creations. This disenchantment leads the being to look for the Reality and His eternal abode where there is eternal unbroken bliss and peaceful existence.

    Let's see how desires never satisfy us :

    Eating ==> Any food is delicious only till we are hungry. Even the most delicious food loses its taste when our hunger is satisfied. So, this hunger ==> Eating ==> Satisfaction ==>Again Hunger==> Again Eating etc.…. is an endless cycle we are trapped in. There is no eating which gives us lasting freedom from hunger and there is no food which we can keep enjoying without feeling nauseated after a certain stage.

    The same rule applies to any type of hunger-enjoyment-satisfaction-hunger cycle including sex. There is no beauty which doesn't lose its charm with age and time. There is no body which doesn't get old and ugly with age. Slowly in many lifetimes, going through these cycles of being fooled by the Prakriti/MAyA, a being awakens and realises that he is actually in a very bad trap and then the real spiritual journey back Home starts and the role of MAyA ends. As the role and utility of MAyA ends, MAyA vanishes and the another dimension of the Reality (The Absolute) reveals to the seeker.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #19
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    Re: getting the whole story

    hariḥ om̐
    ~~~~~~
    namasté & hello

    Continuing the conversation...
    Most-to-many people I have met over the years that say they are practicing hinduism (sanātana dharma some call ārṣa dharma¹) are in fact taking most of their precepts, practices, and clues from two main schools: yoga darśana and vedānta darśana from the 6 ~ classical~ schools that are known.

    Yogadarśana ( school of yoga)
    Most to many practitioners ( in the West at least) are not aware that patañjali’s yogadarśana has aṣṭāṅga ( 8 limbs); There too are other systems that call out 6 limbs. You will find this 6-limbed in the yogacūḍāmaṇī¹ upaniṣad (yogacūḍāmaṇyupaniṣat).
    What most focus on is āsana-s (plural form is asanāḥ). This is all well and good yet getting 1/8th of the pie seems to me a little less rewarding, but so be it. Yet with the āsana orientation one is now practicing haṭha yoga as this is one of many¹ ~yoga-s~. It is of interest to note that the first line of the haṭhayogapradīpikā (or light on haṭha yoga) says the following:
    haṭhayoga knowledge (haṭhayoga-vidyā) which shines forth (vibhrājate) in the form (iva) of a stairway (adhirohiṇī) for those that wish (icchoḥ) to ascend (āroḍhum) to rājayoga or royal yoga - (rājayogam)||1

    That is, haṭha yoga prepares one for rājayoga... is it the exercise & stretching ? Or something else ? Let’s discuss in the next post.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ


    terms
    • yoga+cūḍā+maṇī
      • cūḍā – top most; head; summit + maṇī – gem, jewel

    • the major ‘yoga’ approaches:

    · rāja ( some write rāj, the singular form is rājaḥ ) - king , sovereign , chief or best of its kind
    · karma (some write karman) - action consisting in motion ; act, special duty, skill in action
    · jñāna - knowing , becoming acquainted with , knowledge , (esp.) the higher knowledge of SELF, Supreme.
    · bhākti or bhākta - ' the faithful ones'
    · haṭha yoga - 'by force' ;' by all means '; persistently ( as in staying in one position)
    · kriyā - action; doing , performing , performance , occupation. For me this looks much like a definition for karma yoga
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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