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Thread: Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Tantric Shaivism & Advaita............Comments are welcome!

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  1. #1

    Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Tantric Shaivism & Advaita............Comments are welcome!

    Update:

    I have found that in the Devilokattara that Sunya & Mahasunya is equated to Brahman.
    This was found out by me in the book "Parayana" used in the Sri Ramanashramam on Arunachala.
    To me, this is very germaine to this subject being discussed here.

    Hi everyone,

    I have noticed that the Buddhadharma in Tibet is using Tantra and Tantric Shaivite implements and format
    and that both in Tibet and in the Pali texts Brahman is never mentioned. Only the god Brahma is and is summarily negated
    as a source of refuge. As a matter of fact, Shiva/Rudra and Vishnu are not even in the "Buddhadharmic" picture in the Pali or Tibetan texts!

    I have also noticed that a certain monk called Luang (insert middle name) Bua taught Buddhadharma essentially the same as
    Advaita Vedanta and in particular that the citta is eternal & indestructible. This is interesting because typically in many Buddhist circles,
    there is nothing eternal & indestructible. Very strange to see this actually particularly in regards to the state of Nirvana.

    I have read books from Swami Satyananda Saraswati that in meditation Shunya is reached but
    that there is a state beyond that. He agreed with the Buddhas' view on Shunya too.

    This has caused me to come to the conclusion that ultimately Advaita & Buddhadharma is teaching the same thing but
    using different terminology.

    How do you see it?

    Mangalam to you all.........
    Stefos
    Last edited by Stefos; 26 February 2017 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Further insight

  2. #2

    Re: Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Tantric Shaivism & Advaita............Comments are welc

    Namaste Stefos,


    What you say is true. Although Acharya Maha Bua is not saying citta is the atma, he is saying that the same citta is present in each birth. The closest thing in the pali sutta of the transcendent state free from individuality is in Kevatta sutta where he talks about Viññanam anidassanam or consciousness without any footing in the elements. The cosmology of this sutta is the same as Bhagavatam and other Hindu traditions.

    The best place to start how Tibetan Buddhist are linked to shiva shakti tantric practice starts at the 7 main universities of northern India at the time.

    http://www.hitxp.com/articles/histor...shila-nalanda/

    The picture that I have painted around this time that there was only Dharma, it was not as sectarian and divided although it was diverse. Shramanas were probably yogic groups that practiced all types of forest practices of dhyana and samadhi and other yogic disciplines. They may have been at odds with some of the brahminical ways, but Siddharta taught Brahmins to be better Brahmins via awareness of Dharma. Most of his closest disciples were Brahmins. It was a great time of discovery and the universities were recording and studying according to those discoveries, but these discoveries did not just happen overnight or due to the appearance of Siddharta, it was already inherent in the minds of the people.

    I also think it was a very healthy period, as some say that it was a time when Siddharta refuted and denied any Vedic Authority, this I dont accept, he said the highest mantra was Gayatri Mantra, I can give many accounts of the synthesis or even better how they were deeply related and integrated within each other, but I dont really take notes I just follow themes and learn along the way.

    Many Advaitins have freedom to study Buddhism and many things are similar and ultimately the essence is the same, they have influenced each other and kept traditions pure that pre existed both Siddharta and Adi Shankara.

  3. #3

    Re: Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Tantric Shaivism & Advaita............Comments are welc

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Namaste Stefos,


    What you say is true. Although Acharya Maha Bua is not saying citta is the atma, he is saying that the same citta is present in each birth. The closest thing in the pali sutta of the transcendent state free from individuality is in Kevatta sutta where he talks about Viññanam anidassanam or consciousness without any footing in the elements. The cosmology of this sutta is the same as Bhagavatam and other Hindu traditions.

    The best place to start how Tibetan Buddhist are linked to shiva shakti tantric practice starts at the 7 main universities of northern India at the time.

    http://www.hitxp.com/articles/histor...shila-nalanda/

    The picture that I have painted around this time that there was only Dharma, it was not as sectarian and divided although it was diverse. Shramanas were probably yogic groups that practiced all types of forest practices of dhyana and samadhi and other yogic disciplines. They may have been at odds with some of the brahminical ways, but Siddharta taught Brahmins to be better Brahmins via awareness of Dharma. Most of his closest disciples were Brahmins. It was a great time of discovery and the universities were recording and studying according to those discoveries, but these discoveries did not just happen overnight or due to the appearance of Siddharta, it was already inherent in the minds of the people.

    I also think it was a very healthy period, as some say that it was a time when Siddharta refuted and denied any Vedic Authority, this I dont accept, he said the highest mantra was Gayatri Mantra, I can give many accounts of the synthesis or even better how they were deeply related and integrated within each other, but I dont really take notes I just follow themes and learn along the way.
    I knew something was up in the way that the Theravadins taught about the 5 aggregates and the citta.

    Thank you for that key quote and information.

    Yes........I will re-look at the Kevatta Sutta and research the other info.

    Thanks,
    Stefos

  4. #4

    Re: Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Tantric Shaivism & Advaita............Comments are welc

    Hello there,

    Based on your studies, I have a question for you in our sharing:

    Buddhism says "no eternalism and nihilism."

    If that's the case, How is it that Buddhism talks about Nirvana being release? In other words, the state of release must be eternal in my mind!
    Also, In Dzogchen & Mahamudra, the nature of mind is eternal! The mind is not............2 distinct things.

    Can you please shed some insight on this?
    Thank you,
    Stefos

  5. #5

    Re: Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Tantric Shaivism & Advaita............Comments are welc

    Namaste Stefos,

    In my understanding this is seen from 1st persons experience of wanting to be something and not wanting to be something, and is based on craving- tanha, which is a root cause of suffering, this is within the context of our experiences within the conditions, , if this is penetrated by insight then sama/ equanimity will be found, not easy.... takes a lot of practice. This is not related to atma vichara on deeper level, which really kicks in once we have been firmly established in equanimity, where on can explore consciously deeper levels of dhyana and samadhi.


    There were many epithets that Siddharta used for Nibbana, one being Shiva, and when he used the word Nibbana it would be in a context that would have a direct impact on the mind of the person he was talking to.

    For example if say he saw a person who was very hot and feeling discomfort from blistering heat and was sweating, panting and he approached The Buddha the awakened one and asked him what is nibbana~nirvana, he would simple say, Nibbana is cooling, calming, refreshing and this would then give him direct insight into the nature of nibbana and would change his life, its the power behind the words and not the words themselves that transforms and gives release, although this may or may not apply to Sanskrit as Sanskrit is a manifestation through Sabda-sound and Vach-speech of cosmic/universal vibrations and beyond, but I dont know enough Sanskrit to explain properly with any authority.

    Mind has many meanings in different Systems that gets translated into English, usually within Chan, which one could say is a very close relative to Dzogchen where Mind is our true nature. Within Vedanta Mind means something different as in the compounded structure of Ego, intellect, mind, memory or ahamkara, buddhi, manas, chitta. So Mind in Buddhist schools mostly Mahayana is not always the same context as Mind in Vedanta, but its also not a black and white division, because both include chitta and chitta can only be one thing.

    Its a great study and as I am finding, you will find that bridge if this is your way, it will come together at some point. But it needs some practice, I find retreats really helped me, gives time for things to settle. As far as know Mind or pure Mind means chitta, one may ask why chitta is our original nature, its a good question, takes some time to work out, chitta is originally pure and if one has developed chitta to not become or not annihilate what arises then there isnt really any need to say what is the experience or give it a term, one can say Buddha or simply awake, what rises ceases and in the end is peace, nibbana.


    Its very clever really and always deals with whats obstructing Absolute Truth, i.e the 5 kleshas. Transcendence is transcendence, it cant be uttered or understood while we are bound within limited conditions.

    I will post some good titles to read from both Theravada/pali tradition and Mahayana Chan, that could help with some essential understanding , for me very important books and very simple and easy to read with the essentials of Buddha dharma outside of comparative studies.

    Ok 3 books that may help ( and these just my personal choices )

    1.The Sutta-Nippata Tranlsated by H. Saddahatissa

    2.The Surangama Sutra - Commentary Ch'an Master Han Shan Translated by Upaska Lu K'uan Yu

    These two will give you a good understand of early Buddhism 1. and 2.Chan Buddhism and Mahayana

    And a recent addiction although not read all of it yet

    Sun Faced Buddha The teachings of Ma-tsu amd the Hung Chou School of chan introduced and translated by Cheng Chien Bhikshu.

    The Sutta-Nippata has been perhaps the best revelation of early Buddhism I have come across, its very simple and beautiful and a compilation of suttas, if within Buddha dharma there was only one book that should survive it would be this one for me.

    Sun face Buddha I only recently borrowed it and The Surangama Sutra you may want to check a few different translations.


    Pranam
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 20 February 2017 at 06:38 PM.

  6. #6

    Re: Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Tantric Shaivism & Advaita............Comments are welc

    Namaste, Markandeya 108 dasa,

    Thank you for the post!

    You see the REAL reason for asking questions is to avoid error and to perceive the truth of these matters.

    Using the mind to discover the mind is not good.............Space is required to see the functions of the mind! Which is why to me observing with bare attention is where it's at.

    Another interesting thing about the nature of mind & Brahman is that, although the ultimate state is this, morals and ethics must be developed in the context of time.
    For example, How do "I" know "I'm" patient?
    It can't be through myself but through another.

    Yes, this is SERIOUS stuff my friend.

    Not only that but fear of not having correct understanding is there too.
    In the Buddhadharma of Tibet, I guess someone mentioned "Vajra Hell."

    That doesn't sound good at all..........Hence my bringing up fear.

    I appreciate your insights.

    E MA HO!
    Stefos

  7. #7

    Re: Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Tantric Shaivism & Advaita............Comments are welc

    Namaste Stefos Ji,

    Let me try and start here.
    Using the mind to discover the mind is not good.
    This is where English is to limited and it kinda groups everything into one context, mind or Mind is one thing, and although I am not so familiar with the Mind only school of yogacharya, I know in a general way that it is a perfectly complete teaching in its own right and good enough for liberation and full insight.

    What is mind in our language and what is mind in Dharma is not always the same thing. We have to raise our self by our own faculty and its the raising of this faculty through skillful means and sadhana that brings us closer to our real nature, so do we get help along the way, yes....Always

    Is it a path of solitude ? Can you show me where sentient beings do not exists, in one form or another and what is the essence of all sentient beings. Did our clothes, computers, cars, foods, houses, medicine, the body just appear magically, are their sentient beings existing outside of ordinary sight. If we sit alone in a room or in forest, could the ordinary mind count all the beings and population around them? Sentient beings are all pervasive and our Guru's, and always pointing to that which is beyond their manifested state.

    Within Surangama Sutra and pretty much the core of Buddha Dharma there is a distinction between developing the faculties and power, developing the faculties is considered as wholesome states and developing power is considered as reinforcing the Ego or sense of self or I as a separated individual being and considered unwholesome.

    I have done vipassana and other forms of retreats for a while, and was managing a retreat center and joined in many and have seen that some people are just not ready to meditate due to the amount of noise and heavy conditions in the mind. Also I do not agree with some of the modern forms of mindfulness that is going around, just passively and inactively watching the mind, thoughts and emotions, there has to be some type of practice to raise ones vibration and some methods of purification to assist it. People often say Buddhism is not a religion, its a philosophy, perhaps its better to say its a complete way of life and the full discovery of what it means to be a human being with all its latent potentials. Core of Dharma and its practice from start to finish is dana, sila, samadhi, prajna. Generosity, Morals, devloping mind in meditation or more concentrated states and wisdom.

    I agree we need ethics and we also need to meet a sadhu, without these two things its more or less impossible to get what we seek, but that in itself is a balance like all things, ethics alone will keep one in sattva and pride may arise thinking oneself above others, sattva and goodness has its own pitfalls and can keep us bound, and hanging on to a Guru or sadhu wanting them to do all the work for you completely is also a trap and will eventually lead to mental weakness. So there is skill in each one, but they are essential factors.

    Within the teachings of Buddhadharma the four noble truth are universally accepted within all the traditions, even in scholastic debate between the traditions they will all agree on the 4 noble truths, which includes the Arya 8fold path, which includes the necessary teachings on dependent origination or how we become bound up and stay in cyclic states of mind and conditions and transcendent dependent arises in how we release our self from from cyclic states and conditions. The approach will be varied as no two minds are the same, but its all made of same stuff so their will be fundamental guidelines/truths.


    I am not sure what you mean by Vraja hell. Tibetan Buddhism will take time to settle, its impossible to transfer a thousand year culture into one generation that has very little basis in dharma and cultural understanding of Tibetan and Dharmic teachings. So with a lot of tantra there will be problems and the Tibetans needed to spread it in a fast way for their own causes and most audiences want the sweetest taste as first course and ignore the previous dishes and end up getting indigestion, so what to do......Try and be part of the next wave, and where does that start

    Thank you for opening up this type of dialogue.

    Pranam

    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 01 March 2017 at 02:30 PM.

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