Prarabdha Karma and immortal soul

[Anirudh]

Namaste HDF,

I got this question while learning Srimad B.G.

If soul is immortal and can not be hurt by any means why should it carry the Karma baggage along with it? If soul will/can not feel the pain or pleasure, what is the use body undergoing the the effects of action? If my soul is not hurt, why should I nurse my mortal body?

Thanks in advance for your responses

PS: If similar thread exists answering the questions, please provide links

[Viraja]

Excellent question! Does the soul act as a "proxy" in redeeming the mind of its sins?

[devotee]

Namaste Anirudh,

If soul is immortal and can not be hurt by any means why should it carry the Karma baggage along with it? If soul will/can not feel the pain or pleasure, what is the use body undergoing the the effects of action? If my soul is not hurt, why should I nurse my mortal body?

This confusion arises due to translation of both Jeevaatma and AtmAn as soul. In Bhagwad Gita, there are two terms "Jeeva" and "AtmAn" and both have different meanings. AtmAn is the spirit which is eternal (SanAtanah), omnipresent (Sarvagatah), untainted (na lipyate), Ajah (which doesn't take birth) and this AtmAn cannot be hurt (na hanyate) etc. This AtmAn doesn't get involved in enjoyment. AtmAn is Only One.

Jeeva is an entity created by the phenomenon of ChidAbhAsa into Prakriti. It "was created" due to arising of desire of "becoming many" (Sah Ikshat- Upanishad). Due to this desire, arose individual entity, with the combination of Mann(Observing and storing Mind), Buddhi (Intellect) and Ahamakaar (the feeling of being different entity as compared to other things around, feeling the joys and sorrows arising out of contacts with this world). Jeevas are many and every Jeeva is different from the other in its content of three gunas of Prakriti which brings in modifications in the characteristics of a Jeeva. Over the lifetime and over many lifetimes, this Jeeva keeps gathering Karmas i.e. impressions of its actions by Mann (Thoughts), Speech and physical actions. These impressions cause increase or decrease in different gunas (Good Karma increase Sattva and Bad Karma increase Rajasa and Tamasa gunas). Jeeva keeps a separate identity life after life and keeps enjoying or sufferings the effects of its Karma as per the Laws of Karma of Nature. This cycle is endless until "it" realises its True Nature as being non-different from AtmAn (i.e. Brahman). On this realisation, Jeeva's mAyic bondages are broken and it merges with Brahman as water of a pot mixes with water of the ocean without leaving any trace of its identity and all Karmas cease to exist as the owner of the Karma is no longer there.

So, AtmAn doesn't feel any pain or joy but soul or the Jeeva does. AtmAn doesn't carry any burden of Karma but Jeeva does. And this continues until Self-realisation occurs.

However, the way to this realisation is not easy due to very strong MAyic bondages and the powerful gunas of Prakriti. It may take many births to get this realisation. As all spiritual/religious duties are possible only through our bodies, it is important to take care of our bodies well.

OM

[Anirudh]

Namaste Anirudh,



This confusion arises due to translation of both Jeevaatma and AtmAn as soul. In Bhagwad Gita, there are two terms "Jeeva" and "AtmAn" and both have different meanings. AtmAn is the spirit which is eternal (SanAtanah), omnipresent (Sarvagatah), untainted (na lipyate), Ajah (which doesn't take birth) and this AtmAn cannot be hurt (na hanyate) etc. This AtmAn doesn't get involved in enjoyment. AtmAn is Only One.

Jeeva is an entity created by the phenomenon of ChidAbhAsa into Prakriti. It "was created" due to arising of desire of "becoming many" (Sah Ikshat- Upanishad). Due to this desire, arose individual entity, with the combination of Mann(Observing and storing Mind), Buddhi (Intellect) and Ahamakaar (the feeling of being different entity as compared to other things around, feeling the joys and sorrows arising out of contacts with this world). Jeevas are many and every Jeeva is different from the other in its content of three gunas of Prakriti which brings in modifications in the characteristics of a Jeeva. Over the lifetime and over many lifetimes, this Jeeva keeps gathering Karmas i.e. impressions of its actions by Mann (Thoughts), Speech and physical actions. These impressions cause increase or decrease in different gunas (Good Karma increase Sattva and Bad Karma increase Rajasa and Tamasa gunas). Jeeva keeps a separate identity life after life and keeps enjoying or sufferings the effects of its Karma as per the Laws of Karma of Nature. This cycle is endless until "it" realises its True Nature as being non-different from AtmAn (i.e. Brahman). On this realisation, Jeeva's mAyic bondages are broken and it merges with Brahman as water of a pot mixes with water of the ocean without leaving any trace of its identity and all Karmas cease to exist as the owner of the Karma is no longer there.

So, AtmAn doesn't feel any pain or joy but soul or the Jeeva does. AtmAn doesn't carry any burden of Karma but Jeeva does. And this continues until Self-realisation occurs.

However, the way to this realisation is not easy due to very strong MAyic bondages and the powerful gunas of Prakriti. It may take many births to get this realisation. As all spiritual/religious duties are possible only through our bodies, it is important to take care of our bodies well.

OM

Namaste Devotee,

Thanks for the explanation. I can't understand few things here. Even though trying my best, I might not have formulated my questions correctly. Please don't get offended.

1. Is Maaya some thing like a honey trap for Jeeva? If it is yes, who governs Maaya? Why it should play a negative role?
2. Why can't Jeeva follow the dharmic route from the word go instead of becoming prey to Maaya?
3. We observe and undergo fight or flight syndrome in our lives, Why should Jeeva choose flight route before deciding fight?
4. When a particular Jeeva was created (say the first birth) what would be its orientation towards Dharma vs Adharma
5. I assume Jeeva is different from body also think this Jeeva born for the first time need not necessarily be human. And what regulates which Jeeva get which body and the circumstances of the body

Apology if my questions are malformed.

[devotee]

Namaste Anirudh,

1. Is Maaya some thing like a honey trap for Jeeva? If it is yes, who governs Maaya? Why it should play a negative role?

Maayaa comes into action because of Brahman's desire to become many. Maayaa plays its role and it cannot be said to be negative. Maayaa comes into being with three gunas and these gunas in action perform as per their nature. The Rajas and Tamas gunas may look acting in negative ways but it is their inherent nature. Why are they so ? There is no answer. Actually, our habit of asking "why is it so ?" is irrational. The Truth as It is ... there is no reason for why It is as it is.

Maayaa is governed by God. Here God means Ishvara or Saguna Brahman. The Maayaa, Ishvara and the two worlds exist simultaneously in relative plane of existence. It is also fallacious to say that Brahman desired for becoming Many at a certain point of time and then at that time Jeeva, Maayaa and Ishvara came into being. No. It is not like that. Nirguna state of Brahman and Brahman in state of multitude i.e. God, Jeeva, Maayaa and the worlds always exist in parallel planes of existence simultaneously.

2. Why can't Jeeva follow the dharmic route from the word go instead of becoming prey to Maaya?

It is also a wrong notion. Jeeva's existence is with the three gunas and Jeeva seemingly act as per the nature of Gunas. As Jeeva is only a relative existence and AtmAn is the Reality which doesn't do anything, Lord Krishna says in Bhagwad Gita, "In reality, all actions are performed by the three gunas of Nature in every way but the Jeeva being deluded under the influence of Ahamkaar thinks that he is the doer". This assumption of doership binds Jeeva.


The Sattva, Raja and Tama act as per their dharma but from Jeeva's point of view these are considered good and bad or dharma and adharma.

3. We observe and undergo fight or flight syndrome in our lives, Why should Jeeva choose flight route before deciding fight?

Jeeva's ahamkaar binds it to notions of "life" and "death". "Ahamkaar" by its nature wants to do anything to maintain its existence. So, in its effort to "save" itself from "fight", its first reaction is usually resorting to "flight".

4. When a particular Jeeva was created (say the first birth) what would be its orientation towards Dharma vs Adharma

There was never a first creation but for our discussion sake, let's assume so. In that case, the Jeeva would be born with its three gunas in balance but it is not born in vacuum. It takes birth with world surrounding it and is born with its desires under effect of the 5 indriyas and instinct to survive at any cost. This leads Jeeva to use its intellect for choosing an option from the available options at that time. This choice creates Karma and also encourages one guna over other two. This imbalance has spiraling effect and creates Karma over Karma in various layers and decides various opportunities / tendencies in the course of life of the body.

5. I assume Jeeva is different from body also think this Jeeva born for the first time need not necessarily be human. And what regulates which Jeeva get which body and the circumstances of the body

Jeeva is neither human nor un-human. It is an entity comprising of "ChidAbhAsa" of AtmAn, 5 mahaabhootas, Observing mind, intellect and ahamkaar. As I told you, there was never a beginning. Nature is called AnAdi i.e. that which never had a beginning. This world is created again and again as per the past impressions. The body is not important. In fact, science tells us that human being came into being much later. So, the bodies keep evolving in every yuga. The body is taken as per desires and karma a particular jeeva stores in its "observing mind " or mann. This mann carries the impressions of actions from one births to the other and takes births and bodies as per its desires and its Karma.

[Anirudh]

Namaste Anirudh,



Maayaa comes into action because of Brahman's desire to become many. Maayaa plays its role and it cannot be said to be negative. Maayaa comes into being with three gunas and these gunas in action perform as per their nature. The Rajas and Tamas gunas may look acting in negative ways but it is their inherent nature. Why are they so ? There is no answer. Actually, our habit of asking "why is it so ?" is irrational. The Truth as It is ... there is no reason for why It is as it is.

Maayaa is governed by God. Here God means Ishvara or Saguna Brahman. The Maayaa, Ishvara and the two worlds exist simultaneously in relative plane of existence. It is also fallacious to say that Brahman desired for becoming Many at a certain point of time and then at that time Jeeva, Maayaa and Ishvara came into being. No. It is not like that. Nirguna state of Brahman and Brahman in state of multitude i.e. God, Jeeva, Maayaa and the worlds always exist in parallel planes of existence simultaneously.



It is also a wrong notion. Jeeva's existence is with the three gunas and Jeeva seemingly act as per the nature of Gunas. As Jeeva is only a relative existence and AtmAn is the Reality which doesn't do anything, Lord Krishna says in Bhagwad Gita, "In reality, all actions are performed by the three gunas of Nature in every way but the Jeeva being deluded under the influence of Ahamkaar thinks that he is the doer". This assumption of doership binds Jeeva.


The Sattva, Raja and Tama act as per their dharma but from Jeeva's point of view these are considered good and bad or dharma and adharma.




Jeeva's ahamkaar binds it to notions of "life" and "death". "Ahamkaar" by its nature wants to do anything to maintain its existence. So, in its effort to "save" itself from "fight", its first reaction is usually resorting to "flight".


There was never a first creation but for our discussion sake, let's assume so. In that case, the Jeeva would be born with its three gunas in balance but it is not born in vacuum. It takes birth with world surrounding it and is born with its desires under effect of the 5 indriyas and instinct to survive at any cost. This leads Jeeva to use its intellect for choosing an option from the available options at that time. This choice creates Karma and also encourages one guna over other two. This imbalance has spiraling effect and creates Karma over Karma in various layers and decides various opportunities / tendencies in the course of life of the body.




Jeeva is neither human nor un-human. It is an entity comprising of "ChidAbhAsa" of AtmAn, 5 mahaabhootas, Observing mind, intellect and ahamkaar. As I told you, there was never a beginning. Nature is called AnAdi i.e. that which never had a beginning. This world is created again and again as per the past impressions. The body is not important. In fact, science tells us that human being came into being much later. So, the bodies keep evolving in every yuga. The body is taken as per desires and karma a particular jeeva stores in its "observing mind " or mann. This mann carries the impressions of actions from one births to the other and takes births and bodies as per its desires and its Karma.

Namaste Devotee,

Thank you very much for explaining in a way it is easily understood. I understanad the meaning of Saguna Brahman, yet, want to know if I have understood it correctly. Can we say Saguna Brahman is a common noun? If not what is the difference between a particular deity and Saguna Brahman?

Besides, quite often while learning Srimad B.G or any of our epics, unable to draw a line between our scriptures and atheism+Abrahamic religions. Among atheism and Abrahamic religions, I think atheism is a part of our scriptures. In the present Sociopolitical environment it has become very important to understand our scriptures so that our children aren't brain washed by EVIL around us. So I have got few questions in that direction. They might be interpreted wrongly if asked in public. I will send you a PM in a coupe of weeks times.

Thanks again for your explanation.