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Thread: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

  1. #1
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    Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    Namaste HDF

    I have a question which should have surfaced in every ones life. Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse? I am not venting out my frustrations or unfulfilled desires, but generally speaking, between life and death we undergo so many hardships that doesn't make any sense to go through in first place. Say for eg, the mother and yet to be born has to suffer a lot just to take birth and the suffering does not end.

    Why should we take birth? Why should we need this three qualities, ahankara, recording past impressions etc etc. I understand what these 3 qualities, ahankara and past impression can do to me. Even if I believe that the soul that resides in me is not affected, shouldn't I have to live with this pain in this world till I cease to exist?

    If you can answer please do share your wisdom but don't tell me it as Gods pass time . I don't think God would be cruel to that extent. Few years ago I had asked a question How I got into womb, now, I wonder why I got into womb? Please read the link given by SaiDevo if you want to understand what I am asking
    Anirudh...

  2. #2

    Re: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    Namaste!

    You have specified to say not say that this is God's past time.. But the truth is only in the state of Sri Paramatman we can obtain full anand. These births and deaths are endless until the person tries to live a dharmic life which will free them from duality where they think God and the Jiva is different.. I am talking within the advaita perspective. By living a dharmic life where we do jaap of Sri Paramatman's name, then we can awaken the state within ourselves and then surely there will be no pain left.. Pain is felt when we are away from Sri Paramatman, that is why it is wise to always remain attached-yog with Sri Paramatman, and it will destroy the vices such as kaam(wishes)/krodh(wrath)/lobh(greed)/moh(false attachment)/ahankar(pride) etc which is what causes suffering and bad karmas. Why attach ourselves to anything from this world since everything will perish anyways one day, attach yourself to God (who will never leave us).

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    Re: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    Namaste Anirudh,

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    I have a question which should have surfaced in every ones life. Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse? I am not venting out my frustrations or unfulfilled desires, but generally speaking, between life and death we undergo so many hardships that doesn't make any sense to go through in first place. Say for eg, the mother and yet to be born has to suffer a lot just to take birth and the suffering does not end.

    Why should we take birth? Why should we need this three qualities, ahankara, recording past impressions etc etc. I understand what these 3 qualities, ahankara and past impression can do to me. Even if I believe that the soul that resides in me is not affected, shouldn't I have to live with this pain in this world till I cease to exist?

    If you can answer please do share your wisdom but don't tell me it as Gods pass time . I don't think God would be cruel to that extent. Few years ago I had asked a question How I got into womb, now, I wonder why I got into womb? Please read the link given by SaiDevo if you want to understand what I am asking
    You are right. This world is full of pains, hunger etc. You have to toil for everything here and the resources in this world are limited and unevenly distributed. So, taking birth is certainly not a boon but it is not curse either. How ?
    If you think that God is some separate entity and like a whimsical person He creates this world and the beings therein then it would appear that He is cruel. However, God is not separate from us. Desire is the thoughtwave which is responsible for this creation in relative plane of existence just like a dream. It is not that desire grew in God and "we" are forced to suffer because of "His" desires ! This generation of thought-waves in parallel plane of existence is the Nature of Brahman or the Highest Truth that we all are. In one plane of existence, Brahman always is without parts, utterly blissful and peaceful. However, in another plane of existence the same Brahman appears in multitude to fulfil its desires. In other words, you can say that it is our own desires which creates this world full of multitude, the Laws of Nature / Karma, good and evil, Karma, births and deaths etc. We are inseparable from Brahman and therefore we cannot blame Brahman for anything without blaming ourselves.

    Now, this sport is our own. It is we who are responsible for our desires and for our births. It is our own Nature which is designed in such a manner that it always tries to pull you back to the Reality that you are. And that is why this world is not bed of roses. If it were, we could have never tried to get out of this enchanting dream of this world. This world gives us our chances to enjoy sense-objects but it comes loaded with bitterness of un-satisfaction, need of efforts for every little thing we want to have ... it also gives us ways to opt out from this painful game and regain our glory. God and Nature take care of us during the whole cycle. Nature reprimands and punishes us for our faults, rewards us for our good deeds and thus keeps us on the path of Dharma and God shows us ways to get out of this painful existence in one way or the other out of compassion in the form of our interactions with JnAni people, noble thoughts and Gurus.

    In fact, there is no one who is bound and there is no one who is suffering. It is just our dream, a grand delusion and nothing else. Just like in our worldly life we see dreams for fulfilling our desires and suffering the results of impressions of our daily life, the same way due to our desires and past impressions we are passing through this dream of ours. The more we detach ourselves from this world-game, the more insulated we become from the cyclic bouts of sufferings and joys of this world.

    It is our own choice. The biggest question is ... Do we really want to be free or before being free we have some more tasks to attend to ... some more things to enjoy ??

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    Dear Anirudh,

    Indian scriptures show clearly how to get out of samsara.

    I do not see life as a curse … you are born in India – I am born in the West. To be born in the West is a curse for me. But I got a boon. I got in touch with Vedic wisdom.

    As I know about the ashramas you fulfill your Dharma as brahmachari and housholder for around 50 years. Then you begin your spiritual studies which may lead to renunciation and finally lead out of samsara. Whatever you did until today … you are 44 years old … lot of time is left.

    Let me tell you a story. In my village we have a small drugstore - now I read in the local newspaper that the owner, at the age of 72, is lamenting that his sales decline because of all these supermarkets. He told about his father who founded the drugstore, about his education, about that in the old days all was better and so on.

    In Germany the official retirement is at the age of 63, he is 72. 72 years dedicated to his drugstore and talking only about attachment and memories. He will be born as a druggist again.

    We in the West do not hear anything about attachment and maya, about atman and paramatman. You have the chance to renounce. Your country offers this possibility with all its ashrams. It is a part of the culture.

    And because only a human can decide to get free from attachment this human life is a gift. It is our decision whether we dedicate it to maya or to the ultimate source. I think even for this druggist it would be not be too late. But if I would tell him about attachment and maya the would laugh at me. That’s the difference between India and the West.

    Pranam
    Dance with Shiva - live with Shiva - merge with Shiva

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    Re: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    Hari Om!

    Quite simply, our divine nature is Bliss! Take a read through the Sanyasa Upanashads. They are short for the most part but full of illuminating wisdom.

    From one, although I don't recall which;

    "Neither by work nor through progeny nor by any other means whatsoever, but only by intuitive awareness of Brahman does a person attain Brahman."

    So, how does this relate? Back again to our true nature being Divine Bliss. In my mind this parallels and echoes Devotee Ji's statements. There is no pain or suffering, however there is no joy either. Simply Divine Bliss.

    Interesting article by the way and delighted that you shared these views. Please expound on it and the comments others have made here that seem relevant if you would be so kind.

    All the best in your quest for understanding.

    Om

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    Re: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    hariḥ om̐
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Why should you be carrying a load on your head when you are traveling on a train ? You and your load , wheather on your head or on the floor, are being carried by the train. You are not lessening the burden on the train by keeping it on your head, but only strain yourself unnecessarily. Similar is the sense of doership in the world by individuals. - rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi, August 17, 1938

    The more you think you are the doer ( and not SELF) the more the stress and strain. The world feels like a curse ( the load on your head). Rise up and find out who you are.



    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    Namaste Yajvan, c.smith, India Lover, Devotee and Chakreshvari

    Thank you very much for all the inputs.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    hariḥ om̐
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Let’s assume for the moment that life is this curse that Anirudh offers in post 1 above. We then can simply assume that a curse in-and-of-itself brings misery (duḥkha). Now we have a term we can work with. What do our śāstra-s offer on this misery.

    I look for support ...

    I look to gauḍapādacharya’s work called the māṇḍūkyopaniṣatkārikā (māṇḍūkya-upaniṣad-kārikā), also known as gauḍapādiyakārikā, done in 215 verses , 4 chapters. It is his commentary of one of the central upaniṣad-s ( number 3 out of the top 10) within vedāntic thought; the māṇḍūkyopaniṣat consisting of only 12 verses.

    śloka 4.82 ( I add saṁscṛita only for those interested and for my practice)
    सुखमाव्रियते नित्यं दुःखं विव्रियते सदा ।
    यस्य कस्य च धर्मस्य ग्रहेण भगवानसौ ॥ ८२
    sukhamāvriyate nityaṁ duḥkhaṁ vivriyate sadā |
    yasya kasya ca dharmasya graheṇa bhagavānasau || 82

    this says,
    due to the mind constantly dwelling or engaged in (nityaṁ) single objects, the joy (sukha)1 (said to be the essence of the Self) always remains concealed and misery (duḥkha) comes to the surface. Therefore the ever-effulgent Lord (is not realized though taught again and again by śāstra-s and teachers).

    So, here’s the deal
    If there is this curse it is misery. This misery is due to one’s mind being engaged in, captivated by, persistently perceiving single objects. This is ‘code’ for saying people not seeing wholeness, fullness, a unified vision.

    What are single objects? Just look around. that seems simple enough. Discrete , independent things. But it is also the repeated ‘singleness’ of thought after thought; Feelings, ideas, etc. all fragmented. It is a transactional experience of life.

    Now, what is this ever-effulgent Lord that is called out in the 82nd verse just mentioned ? In this upaniṣad the Lord is none other than turīya ( the 4th ) . In the 10th verse of chapter 1 this turīya is recognized as īśānaḥ & as prabhu.

    • prabhu – master, lord; constant , eternal; all powerful
    • īśānaḥ - ruler , master , one of the older names of śivaḥ; a name of viṣṇuḥ; also means light and splendor.


    Let’s take a look at this verse:
    śloka 1.10


    निवृत्तेः सर्वदुःखानामीशानः प्रभुरव्ययः ।
    अद्वैतः सर्वभावानां देवस्तुर्यो विभुः स्मृतः ॥ १०


    nivṛtteḥ sarvaduḥkhānāmīśānaḥ prabhuravyayaḥ |
    advaitaḥ sarvabhāvānāṃ devasturyo vibhuḥ smṛtaḥ || 10
    this says,
    In it, indicated as the changeless and the Supreme Lord, there is a cessation of all miseries. It is the one without a second among all (sarvabhāvānāṃ) . It is known as turīya (fourth or devasturyo), effulgent and all-pervading.

    Why mention this?
    If one feels cursed and therefore consumed by miseries of life, the ~solution~ is the complete And total absorption ( surrender) to the 4th. Why so? Based upon ādi śaṅkara-ji’s commentary on his grand-master’s work, he informs us:

    • īśānaḥ = turīya = prabhu, and ‘prabhu’ is the one who brings about the cessation of all miseries.
    • Also, on his commentary of this 10th verse, īśānaḥ = turīya = ātman. This ātman is no less the core of every human


    net net ? We needn’t go get it (turīya) anywhere, it is within us. The end to duḥkha (duṣkha) is possible, and the ~curse~ is lifted.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    terms
    1. joy – some translate as ‘bliss’ . I for one am not certain of ever experiencing this bliss. I have experienced joy and relate more to that term than bliss. Term for bliss used in this verse is sukha, and it is defined as easiness , comfort , pleasure , happiness. It is opposite of duḥkha ( properly spelled ‘duṣkha’) which is found in the same 1st line.
    Last edited by yajvan; 27 January 2017 at 07:08 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #9

    Re: Is this Sansara (संसार) the worldly existence a curse?

    Namaste,

    There is no such thing as curse, only lack of mindfulness and its results. There is no such thing as blaming God if one wants to choose that word, only a lack of mindfulness and its results.

    In Bhagavatam Praksit Maharaja was cursed by Brahmin in Taxila to be bitten by Naga and to die with seven days. Misunderstanding says its a curse and he was bitten by a snake, panicked and took shelter of Avadhuta Sukadeva to seek the truth. Real meaning as I understand is that because his duty was perfect and he was empowered soul, Taxila naga opened up a mystic form of consciousness where Avadhuta Sukadeva could reveal him the knowledge of Bhagavatam.



    Pranam
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 08 February 2017 at 05:03 AM.

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