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Thread: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

  1. #11
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    If I may I’d like to address a few of the notions offered above ... Note this is not done with the mind set of jalpa (argumentative debate, disputation), but to extend the conversation and perhaps offer a principle or two for one's consideration.
    Anirudh writes,

    My views on the rope and snake are offered here:
    http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?14859-vitatha-an-incorrect-view&p=130078#post130078 I do not disagree with your point of view. I offered it to suggest that viewing an idea within the confines of ignorance ( not knowing Self) and that of basking in the full daylight of knowledge. That these two cogitative positions yield different conclusions.

    Thank you Yajvan, I will study the thread and if possible will reply to you.

    Besides this I wish to thank you in public for answering many of the questions I had raised out of ignorance. Like I had told you few weeks ago, I am learning Srimad Bhagavad Gita with a sole focus to understand and imbibe what it has to offer to me. I can see a change in the way I see life.
    Anirudh...

  2. #12
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    It is not what you don’t know that causes harm, but what you do know that is just not right that brings mischief.
    Yajvan ji,

    I see your point. But take the Vaishnavas and Shaivas for instance... with available knowledge, all we do, is have the audacity to outright 'deny' or 'trivialize' the presence of the supreme principle of the other!

    Each of us bash the deity of the other to the point, a total 'hush hush' is maintained when opening any topic on Shiva/Vishnu, it is regarded as a 'can of worms' to discuss this topic!

    But at least, as per my view, nobody is trivial or less, they are equals, but at the same time, it answers the bothersome question that would then arise, "how come there can be 2 paramatmas" then?

    (But, I assure you, I will refrain from taking any side on this issue and will not get into details that gave me this thought.)

    As you and Anirudh seem to be concerned that I am not following a rule book at this point, I will stop here.

    Many thanks,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  3. #13
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Dear Sirs,

    Please allow me to add a last bit of info -- my quest that drove me to post my question here in the first place.

    We see the role of 'paramatma' with so much awe, it 'appears' to us that the divinity holding this post must then be the only supreme.

    Let me give a practical example, there are many doctors as my facebook friends. I have several years of experience as a Software Engineer, and me, knowing the intricacies and dignity associated with being a SWE, I see it as 'no less' to being a doctor.

    I have about 600 friends in my FB friend circle and almost all of them, give the ultimate respect to these doctors, that they do not give me!

    In their eye, being a 'doctor' is beyond words in dignity that the post commands!

    While I see a Cardiologist or a Neuro-surgeon as a more tougher role than a Software Engineer, I do not see the same to be true in case of an ordinary general practitioner with no advanced degrees vs. a senior Software Engineer or a software architect!

    But the people are swayed by 'maya'. Their assumption of the role in society of a SWE is 'trivial' to that of a 'doctor' even though in reality it is not!

    Likewise, being a 'paramatma' alone may not be the be-all and end-all! The 'other' role may be even more challenging! Who knows, the paramatma may be a somewhat dumber role than that of what the other supreme does!

    So I am rather plagued by the question, "what then would be the role of the other?" and want readers to think in this direction, and give up their obsession over the 'paramatma' role alone!

    Yes, without us, SWE, the present day society will become disfunctional on may levels.

    Thanks,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  4. #14

    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste,

    I will offer some of my own thoughts that have helped me. Although its a lofty subject the approach that has helped me comes in a number of connected ways. For the most simple way to accept the oneness is that all the Deities are family, so like there is oneness in a family there is also the existence of oneness in the Deities, so at least in this regard we dont see them as separated or opposing each other, is there any inferiority, superiority between father and son, mother and daughter, grandmother grandfather and uncle and aunt ect, no its one whole unit, one dynamic that co exists in harmony with each other, a true family has only one soul. I extend this view to all sampradayas and Dharma traditions, to all beings without any limit, or at least that's the goal. If this is true on the micro level then why not at the macro level, which is considered as full embodiment of a unified field.

    In philosophical terms or training of the mind, I see both Shiva and Vishnu as fully transcendent or above the limitation of which we are bound up, so sometimes it comes down to dealing with our limitation, what is it that limits us from that transcendental vision, its is the Mind, categorized into 4 departments Buddhi, Citta, Ahamkara and Manas. By training the mind through sadhana and upaya then the Mind has less grip on natural awareness, when the conditions have less grip then consciousness becomes more free and can absorb more than its previous state and limitation.

    There are so many failings in understanding the subtlety and divinity of Supreme Beings due to the limitation of our-self and then that gets projected onto the transcendent reality, the transcendent reality is not changing, only our level of consciousness changes, Shiva and Vishnu are without change, constant and full in their Being. So Shiva and Vishnu do not have to be two separate paramatma's they are part of the one Transcendent reality, but the ordinary mind that we carry then superimposes our own ideas and projects a division and limitation due to our limitation and division as conditioned jiva.

    More recently I am noticing within revealed shastra that there are different grades of revelation, the deeper we go into samadhi or union then more is revealed and the dots start to connect, it cant be understood by academic study or mere belief, only by purification of the mind, which is then accompanied by a super ordinary experience or a higher faculty is reached or glimpsed. When the great sages, rishis, munis, avatars are speaking they are often absorbed in what we might call mystical trances and are seeing reality far different from our present normal sensory awareness, but yet we keep putting their states which are vast and wide into smaller containers of our own limited condition.

    This is not directed to anyone, or to challenge, but my own small tinge of understanding.

    Pranam
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 10 March 2017 at 01:57 PM.

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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Yes, without us, SWE, the present day society will become dysfunctional on may levels.
    Yet, I ask you the SWE, doctors and lawyers & people of the world... how long could you render your most important services without prāṇa ?
    Our stay here is short... our importance, even shorter.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #16
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté



    Yet, I ask you the SWE, doctors and lawyers & people of the world... how long could you render your most important services without prāṇa ?
    Our stay here is short... our importance, even shorter.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    Very true, I see myself 'learning' that. (If did not require that, I would not see it as learning).
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  7. #17
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste

    These two video clips (ie Jeevaatma and Paramaatma) have sub titles which I think are superfluous.

    I am not offending any one.

    To me Sriman Naaraayan is the supreme. I strongly object when there is an attempt to give neo Hindu views. We had enough of neo Hindu views which has turned us into eunuchs in our own land. This forum is not the place to explain neo Hinduism and its roots.

    On the OP my view is very clear. History says Shaivism and Vaishnavism grew together and lived together.

    More over, have no aversion or hatred towards any other sect sect. Although it is natural to get carried away, a true Sri Vaishnava understands the difference between loyalty and fanaticism.

    Did we start walking as soon as we poped out of our mothers womb?

    1. Jeevaatma

    2. Paramaatma.

    I rest my case. Please listen in the order I have given.





    Last edited by Anirudh; 10 March 2017 at 08:14 PM.
    Anirudh...

  8. #18

    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste Anirudh Ji,

    I am assuming your saying my comments are neo Hindu views, not even sure what that means exactly, but if you wish I can provide complete backing from shastra.

    Harih Om

  9. #19

    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste ,

    Here is something I composed elsewhere a while ago, sources from Mahabharata and Srimad Bhagavatam.

    Vishnu and Shiva are not different, this however requires a very subtle mind as they are not exactly the same, but again there is no difference to made between them.

    Mahabharata (Anusasana-parva 135) says that Vishnu and Shiva are nondifferent and even counts the names Shiva, Sarva, Sthanu, Isana, and Rudra—names traditionally identified with Shiva—among the thousand names of Vishnu.

    SB 4.6.42:
    brahmovāca
    jāne tvām īśaṁ viśvasya
    jagato yoni-bījayoḥ
    śakteḥ śivasya ca paraṁ
    yat tad brahma nirantaram

    SB 4.7.50 śrī-bhagavān uvāca
    ahaṁ brahmā ca śarvaś ca
    jagataḥ kāraṇaṁ param
    ātmeśvara upadraṣṭā
    svayan-dṛg aviśeṣaṇaḥ

    12.10.08
    sūta uvāca
    ity uktvā tam upeyāya
    bhagavān sa satāṁ gatiḥ
    īśānaḥ sarva-vidyānām
    īśvaraḥ sarva-dehinām


    SB 12.10.22
    Shiva says
    na te mayy acyute ’je ca
    bhidam anv api caksate
    natmanas ca janasyapi
    tad yusman vayam imahi

    Translation:
    These devotees do not differentiate between Lord Visnu, Lord Brahma and me, nor do they differentiate between themselves and other living beings. Therefore, because you are this kind of saintly devotee, we worship you.

    Some of the other portions to my post is my own wording taking directly from the epistemology of Vedanta, which is essential as far as I was advised to learn in the gradually development of understanding Brahm Jnana.

    Harih Om
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 11 March 2017 at 04:02 AM.

  10. #20
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    MD ji,

    No, no, Anirudh ji is saying 'my' views are Neo-Hindu.

    Anirudh ji,

    1. All I am offering is a 'building block'. I do not claim to have the entire structure. I leave it to the readers to come upon the structure, with perhaps more knowledge than I do.

    2. That out of Shiva/Vishnu, one is unmanifest and one is the human that arose to the level of supreme out of love, penance and sacrifice makes sense on many levels. I surely think that the divine teaches the mankind a 'lesson' this way. (For instance, it explains why some saints of either sect - Shaivism/Vaishnavism viewed the other supreme as someone holding a trivial position than their own. Many Shaiva saints like the 63 nayanmars have written so many verses but without a single reference to Vishnu and likewise among Vaishnava saints.)

    3. If #2 is true, then it must be that the something that arose to the level of the divine, must have emanated as part and parcel of the original un-manifest principle to begin with. This vibes well with the statement that Shiva and Vishnu are the same, as even MD ji is pointing to.

    Like I said, I will keep re-thinking about my 'design' with further studies, and research and if I have some insight, I will contact you.

    Thank you very much,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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