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Thread: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

  1. #21
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste Markandeya 108 Dasa and Viraja

    I didn't reply you yesterday as I was soaked in joy of my countrymen. May the little success gained by us against the pseudo secular forces pave the way to re establish our lost strength. We have got a very long and tough path ahead of us because success will definitely try to bring back lethargy and arrogance. We are paying heavily for our past mistakes, and should learn to protect us and stay focused.

    Term neo Hindu had been discussed in length and breath both in Wikipedia and HDF. According to me in simple terms it refers to those who wish to twist existing rules to propagate their ideologies without any proofs or ridiculing the existing proofs. This is been done by the native evil elements, invading army and their sidekicks from the time immemorial.

    Here in India people feel proud to ridicule the age old customs followed by Hindus (irrespective of their demography) but will follow the same principles as if it was imported from non Indian source or even better malign its Indian source. Baasmati Rice is one example. If anyone has the will and a tinge of patriotism left in them can find out the evil designs.

    Conceptualization of Jeevaatma and Paramaatma, cycle of life until Moksha is attained, Pralaya and Maha Pralaya, karma following the Jeevaatma into the subsequent births are all the parts of basic tenets of Hinduism. Any attempt to question these basics without valid proofs is a good candidature for neo Hinduism.

    Sri Vaishnava Aacharyas based on the understanding of Veda and Vedanta have arrived at the Paratatwam of Sriman Naaraayan. They had done lot of research and won scholars of their time. I have read understood and experienced Sri Vaishnavism. Reading and Understanding is a continuous process as every new input can add to our wisdom, but experience is not quantifiable and incomparable. With all humility I wish to share that Sriman Naaraayan found me worthy enough to experience him. Those experiences can not be described or I haven't elevated myself to the level of the great souls who have described their experiences in a way understandable by others.

    All Aastika schools of Hinduism have survived in India with little or no aberration. Historically people are bound to get polarized, but the dividend of polarization is the birth of clarity. I haven't studied Naastika school literature although I have lived as an atheist in past. Probably some day in future will have time and energy to understand that part of Hinduism (if and only if it is a part of Hinduism)
    Last edited by Anirudh; 25 March 2017 at 01:15 AM.
    Anirudh...

  2. #22
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Anirudh ji,

    I understand the concern... I was looking for the right term.

    In my case, I don't choose to be a 'neo Hindu', I find that term offensive for my quest. Afterall, my OP here has to do with the 'process' and not the 'outcome'. If I disputed the outcome, and did things such as defied the concepts of Paramatma, or denied the existence of any deity, that is cause for concern.

    What I am striving to say, is how my theory still connects with established principles but offers explanations to the certain un-answered questions. One of these questions is, why none of 63 nayanmars sung about Vishnu and why Srimath Ramanuja did not sing about Shiva.

    That way, I would not call myself 'Neo Hindu' but I am rather 'out of the box' thinker.

    A Neo-Hindu distorts the truth and presents non-factual info. All I am doing is repositioning the pieces we have so that it all comes together.

    As I said, my structure is just forming. It needs some help from the more knowledgeable who can think out of the box like me to come together, but I will continue to look.

    I thank HDF for giving me an opportunity.

    I also thank you for your patience, sincerity of your concerns, and eagerness to guide.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  3. #23
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste HDF


    First of all --


    ~*~*~*~*~


    Wishinga very HappyHolito all -- KAnhA ki Holi, ShyAm ke ShyAm rang me samA jAne ki Holi (The time to drown in the colours of Shri KRshNa - the dark-cloud-like One)
    Holi is catching on like a sweet cool fire in all parts of the world as "the Hindu Festival of Colours"


    ~*~*~*~*~


    There is only one ParaBramhan' a.k.a. ParamAtmA a.k.a, Parameshwar
    which is
    nirAkAr = formless
    sarvagatah:, sarva-vyApi / vyApak = omnipresent , all-pervading
    anAdi-ananta = beginningless - endless
    omnipotent - Ishwar - can do anything
    sarvadnya = omniscient
    paramAnda-svarup -= eternally blissful in nature


    which is the virAT-svarUp (Universal form of Bramhan, Parameshwar, ParamAtmA), and Whose infinite, multi-faceted prakRutI (nature) is the virAT-swarUpiNi (Parwmeshwari) who also has infinite limbs all over. What does this mean?


    If ParaBramhan' is formless, how can He have thousands of limbs ? sahastra bAhu, sahastra netre...
    If ParaBramhan' is the highest albeit an abstract principle, the infinie potential, power, nature, svabhAv, tendencies, are equally abstract
    qualities of ParaBramhan'. You cannot qualify Him, but yet, these abstract principles are what He IS


    It means that for every form that ParaBramhan' "takes" , there is a corresponding form of "the Nature of ParaBramhan"
    Now, these forms are not bones and muscles like living beings.


    ~*~*~*~*~


    So this ParaBramhan' alone, for the sake of following His own nature of creativity,
    plays the role of


    BramhA = SrishTi-kartA -- the svayambhU engineer - Creator
    VishNu = SrishTi-pAlak (guardian of creation), dhartA (base, holder), bhartA (care-taker), prabhU (God), sAkshI (witness), nivAs (dwelling place - heart), surhut (true friend) = Nurturer of creation
    Mahesh = MahAdev = SrishTi-saunhAr-kartA = Destroyer of sorrow, evil and impermanence, causing/triggering dissolution at various micro and macro levels
    -- naimittika, Atyantika (individual ignorance --> moksha), prAkrutik pralay


    Thus the infinite-faceted potential nature (avyakta mooL prakruti) of ParaBramha plays the roles
    of the shakti corresponding to each role


    BramhA - creates via OmkAr - sound - Veda - universe
    is associated with the corresponding BramhANI = Saraswati = VANI -- vAK-shakti, vAGdevatA, (Goddess of scientific Knowledge and Speech)
    who is the potential of all scientific knowledge and classical music - vijnAna, manifestation of vidyA, science of creation,
    kalA - music as a science-cum-art, expressive forms through precise sound notes


    VishNu - protects, nurtures, guides, loves, teaches, accompanies the created
    is associated with Shri - all potential aspects of wealth and wealthiness -- samruddhI which is required to maintain created existence
    wealth of divine qualities
    wealth of oppulence - perfections, siddhi, aishwarya
    wealth of highest morals, compassion (karuNA - required for nurturing a sappling into a tree)
    wealth of highest tattva - living principles
    wealth of Divine purity
    wealth of non-attachment -- vairAgya
    wealth of eternal auscipiousness that never decreases -- mAngalya


    which is also in other words, the potential to eradicate the opposites of these from those who approach VishNu
    i.e. a-mangal - inauspicious , durguN - bad or undesirable qualities that disturb the harmony of created existence
    alakshmI = opposite of lakshmI (Goddess of Fortune)


    and last but not the least -
    wealth of Divine Love for the created without which nothing can be sustained , without which
    no seed will sprout, without which a sprouted sappling will wither , and he universe will "dry-up", collapse
    == PremAvatAr KRshNa's alhAdini shakti -- potential of bliss, happiness with Divine Love as the base (Prema)




    Mahesh - a.k.a. Rudra Who annhilates sorrow of created, cries out of compassion for created,
    vanquishes the bad, dissolves the ignorance (avidya, adnyAna), to restore vidyA, dnyAna,
    knowledge of the Divine.
    is associated with PArvati/DurgA/KAli - the potential to suck all evil, wicked, things gone wrong, into a black-hole
    and revert restore to original nature


    ~*~*~*~*~




    Now the question : "Dual nature of ParamAtmA" is asked assuming BramhA is out.
    If ParamAtmA , ParaBramhan "spawned" Himself into BramhA to create (by making a knowledge-lotus emanate from Him) , why can He not "spawn" Himself
    for other purposes?


    ~*~*~*~*~


    Extending that, like the property of fractals, ParaBramha "spawned" innumerable recursive nested processes from Him OWN SVA-bhAva
    . His OWN Divine substance, just as a spider spins a web from material out of its own being.


    This is how tattva (principles), then clustered galaxies, solar systems, galaxy-systems, and multi-verses
    came into being from the same working principles that work at the atomic and quantum level,
    with living beings from lowest to highest based on the same DNA principle that begins
    at the cellular levels.

    This is how all this that IS is ParaBramhan alone.


    Om shAntih: (individual) shAntih: (communal) shAntih: (universal)
    (Peace at 3 levels)


    OM
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 14 March 2017 at 07:28 AM. Reason: explained terms virat svarup and Lakshmi

  4. #24
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    One of these questions is, why none of 63 nayanmars sung about Vishnu and why Srimath Ramanuja did not sing about Shiva.
    Namaste Virajaji

    The reason is very simple
    It is because ParaBramhan chose the nyanmars in the guise of Shiva, in that rUpa (form, Person) -- all along -- They were Shiva gaNa (associates , followers and servants of Shiva in His abode) who were born here to inspire others with the same liking , temperament -- which suited them

    ParaBramhan chose Ramanuja, Yamunacharya, ALwars, Madhvacharya, Nimbarkacharya etc. as VishNu -- all along -- they were Adi Shesha Naag, Mukhya prANa (Deity of life-airs) , various Ayudha / shastra (weapons) of VishNu, pArshada (associates) , Dev-devtA (Gods and Goddesses), Gopa-Gopi (cowherd associates of Shri KRshNa) born on earth to in turn pick and choose souls with that inclination, svabhav (nature) --- this suited them


    OM
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 16 March 2017 at 08:41 PM. Reason: explained more terms - gana, prana, parshad

  5. #25

    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste Viraja and Anirudh Ji,

    Thanks for replies and posts. Neo Hinduism is a good term to describe the assault on the shastra and culture but also there are a couple of things that are interesting about Dharma traditions that keep it pure without taking away any of its fundamental or revealed truths. I should take notes but I just did a weekend retreat and I was browsing through one book that praised India's culture of Philosophy to be able openly challenge another view and not take anything just on the surface. Gautama Buddha also said test things like a iron rod in furnace, Krsna himself tells Arjuna after he spoke Gita to go and deliberate, so there is an art in finding out the truth for our self and not just blindly accepting. This is a skill and an art and part of the culture and growth into Self realization.

    On the other hand there is as far as I can see no such thing as originality or creativity in the discover of Veda, context of the Veda being used as the final dharshan or the moment we see the truth in full as first hand experience. So this path is seen more of a discovery, something that we discover which is already there, different from invention. So whatever Shiva is, Vishnu is, the nature of their Being we cant change it by view, we cant create some new meaning, we cannot alter any fact about them and Absolute reality. It cant be created or destroyed, invasions cant destroy it, man cant change the text and give it a new meaning, the native evil elements cant corrupt it, as its changeless and beyond human authority, we only can keep our self in ignorance and bondage, and what a folly that is to deny our self of the greatest gift, the greatest wealth and choose something inferior.

    Nice posts and reading ameyAtmA Ji I was thinking to try and post something on the nature of Shiva and Vishnu but you wrote far better than I ever could.



    Harih Om

  6. #26
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    To those that are posting on this string...( and on HDF)

    Please, define your terms. Many of our readers are new to these terms and/or may have different definitions of them. If you say 'they are only meant for one person' - then send that person a personal post. You see, forum is a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. To exchange, one needs to know the ~currency~ that is in use. In our case words and their meaning. If we miss the meaning then no exchange can occur.

    Thank you for your co-operation on this matter.


    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #27
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Admin Note

    Namaste,
    Further to Yajvan's last post on this thread, please note that if you do send a PM to another member that all the forum rules do apply to private messages as well. As such you may not harras other member by telling them what to or what not to do. Please refrain for such behaviour. Please do report posts that you think are breaking forum rules.

    Thanks,
    satay

  8. #28

    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    Could you please be more explicit as your comment seems a bit to general and I for one am not sure exactly which parts or who it is directed towards, maybe a couple of examples could help, as I know your intention is to only to raise the standard.

    Anirudh Ji,

    I dont want to divert the thread but perhaps there could be a new thread opened if you so wish or at some point to talk about these terms astika and nastika, if it hasn't been already because as far as I understand these terms do not mean Atheism and Theism or Vedic and non Vedic and more than likely have been translated that way via outside influence.

    Pranam
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 13 March 2017 at 04:25 PM.

  9. #29
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    Namaste Satay and Moderators

    Hope this thread is reviewed and it meets a logical end. This is not the first time we are discussing about Shiva vs Vishnu or something very similar without any basis. I will send you a PM.

    Best Regards
    Anirudh...

  10. #30
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    Re: A relatively new thought on Shiva/Vishnu tattwa

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    Could you please be more explicit as your comment seems a bit to general and I for one am not sure exactly which parts or who it is directed towards, maybe a couple of examples could help, as I know your intention is to only to raise the standard.
    A fair question: AmeyaAtma was kind enough to edit the posts ( 23 & 24) and add more definitions... terms such as 'nyanmars' still may need to be defined , yet the other terms are now set in place.

    So,markandeya 108 dasa, look to post 23 & 24 and see how the terms were 'sured-up' with definitions next to them. This improves comprehension.

    thank you,

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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