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Thread: How Well do you know karma

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    How Well do you know karma

    See the Latest BLOG Post from http://theinvisiblehindu.com/hi-im-karma-how-well-do-you-…/…

    Check out the latest blog post by the invisible hindu
    In whatever way people surrender unto me, I reciprocate with them accordingly.

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    Namaste,

    Your write-up is educative and very good. I like the fact that your bring the teachings of spiritual masters of our time and draw your conclusions around the sayings.

    I have thought about Karma and would say that, this following quote by Lao Tsu says it all:



    I truly believe that :

    i) Changing one's karma does not begin with acting differently on the spur of the moment. This is impossible.

    ii) Changing your karma does not manifest from prayers alone, either.

    iii) The role of freewill should then be as what is stated in the above message, by Lao Tzu. When you force your thoughts to become good, over time, you will acquire the good karma to transcend potentially negative deeds. This is how you change destiny.

    I hope you like my feedback.

    Thanks,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    Namaste Virga
    Thank you very much for your feed back and I hope you will continue to agree or disagree which is how we learn from each other.
    Om Nahma Shiva
    In whatever way people surrender unto me, I reciprocate with them accordingly.

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Namaste,

    I truly believe that :

    i) Changing one's karma does not begin with acting differently on the spur of the moment. This is impossible.

    ii) Changing your karma does not manifest from prayers alone, either.

    iii) The role of freewill should then be as what is stated in the above message, by Lao Tzu. When you force your thoughts to become good, over time, you will acquire the good karma to transcend potentially negative deeds. This is how you change destiny.

    • When you force your thoughts - that is like trying to 'force' a cow to return from a pasture where it found green, moist grass to graze on. It will go back again and again to this pasture. The more you force, the more it wishes to return to that pasture.
      • what then do you do?

    • What is 'good'? Good is predicated on the roles, values of the society one resides in.
      • what then is the highest good?

    • What of this free will? If a person has perfect free will , would you not also pick the result from your actions you perform? Does that occur? Do we really understand ( then) what is free will?
      • You have freedom over the actions you perform, not the fruits that result. - so says the śrīmad bhāgavad gītā





    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 14 March 2017 at 10:47 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    Respected Yajvan ji,

    I kept thinking about my reply to Mystical Soul, after posting it.

    I remembered to one of my questions, how you had replied to concentrate on 'thuriya', the state of mind between thoughts, a state of neutrality and silence.

    Now, I would like to change my reply to MS that it is this 'thuriya' one should concentrate on, as frequently as possible, and dispel negative thoughts.

    If one does this as frequently as he can, gradually his duality (seeing things in positive or negative light alone) will diminish, he would attain a state of peacefulness.

    With lesser duality and increased peace with himself, his 'character' will be subject to change. He will be in a better position to evaluate his thoughts, his actions, his deeds....

    At this point, he can be termed a 'sadhaka'. Such a sadhaka earns the merit to be rewarded in due course of time, of being able to exercise 'free-will' to a greater degree than common folks. He gradually earns the merit to change his own destiny.

    I take back my words that prayers won't help. I think prayers will bring divine grace to put in more commitment to his cause.

    I think this is the answer to your first question.

    I do not know the answer to the second question, I do not understand the third question.

    I look forward very eagerly to your clarifications.

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Respected Yajvan ji,

    I kept thinking about my reply to Mystical Soul, after posting it.

    I remembered to one of my questions, how you had replied to concentrate on 'thuriya', the state of mind between thoughts, a state of neutrality and silence.

    Now, I would like to change my reply to MS that it is this 'thuriya' one should concentrate on, as frequently as possible, and dispel negative thoughts.

    If one does this as frequently as he can, gradually his duality (seeing things in positive or negative light alone) will diminish, he would attain a state of peacefulness.

    With lesser duality and increased peace with himself, his 'character' will be subject to change. He will be in a better position to evaluate his thoughts, his actions, his deeds....

    At this point, he can be termed a 'sadhaka'. Such a sadhaka earns the merit to be rewarded in due course of time, of being able to exercise 'free-will' to a greater degree than common folks. He gradually earns the merit to change his own destiny.

    I take back my words that prayers won't help. I think prayers will bring divine grace to put in more commitment to his cause.

    I think this is the answer to your first question.

    I do not know the answer to the second question, I do not understand the third question.

    I look forward very eagerly to your clarifications.
    It is excessive 'doing' that gets one in a bind. We think we are actually the doer. It is by doing nothing perfectly that gets us out of this bind. We know how to do things imperfectly - even sitting down watching TV people say, 'oh I am doing nothing'. This is imperfect doing. Thinking you are doing nothing, but fully engaged in thoughts, ideas, wants, likes and dislikes. So doing nothing perfectly does not = sitting in a corner.
    Even our greatest saints where out and about in society. Yet how are they doing nothing, yet still acting? Being established in Self... the silence of Self. This is the Yoga and skill in action.

    On prayers: they are all well and good. The most effective prayer is perfect silence.

    On Good: The highest good must that which brings one to right action in every case. That actions are aligned not only with social norms but with the dharma of the total environment i.e. society, earth, universe. There is a total organizing power of the universe. When one is inward facing ( that is code for possessed of Self, or Self-referral) then all actions are on a universal scale. You become and are then the exponent of reality. Then all actions are in accordance with natural law. There is the highest good.

    But yajvan , you just mentioned above that 'doing' is the thing that causes the mischief, that gets one in a bind.
    When one is steeped in Self/Being/ pure awareness, this is one's real nature. It is outside of the field of action. It is the body-mind complex that does the doing. 'You' no longer align to body-mind as being 'you'. If this was so, if 'you' were the body-mind, it comes from the foods that you consume and pass out / excrete. Where then is the real you if it is coming and going all the time? 3 meals day and 'you' are then the food stuffs you consume , this cannot be 'you'. Thinking that you are body-mind makes one steep in avidya.

    Freedom of action: more on this later as I will find the post that reviews this in detail add the link to it. Yet it is all in the
    śrīmad bhāgavad gītā. It is ferreted out when studied, vs. just read. In its 700 verses the entire veda resides.



    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ


    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Freedom of action: more on this later as I will find the post that reviews this in detail add the link to it. Yet it is all in the śrīmad bhāgavad gītā. It is ferreted out when studied, vs. just read. In its 700 verses the entire veda resides.
    The following posts/strings may assist one in their understanding:





    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post


    It is excessive 'doing' that gets one in a bind. We think we are actually the doer. It is by doing nothing perfectly that gets us out of this bind. We know how to do things imperfectly - even sitting down watching TV people say, 'oh I am doing nothing'. This is imperfect doing. Thinking you are doing nothing, but fully engaged in thoughts, ideas, wants, likes and dislikes. So doing nothing perfectly does not = sitting in a corner.
    Even our greatest saints where out and about in society. Yet how are they doing nothing, yet still acting? Being established in Self... the silence of Self. This is the Yoga and skill in action.


    (I seem to be making too many posts... after this, will maintain a phase of brief silence).

    Yajvan ji,

    I went through your reply in detail. I have couple of thoughts and observations to share -

    1. In the above quoted paragraph, it seems to be an alternate form of describing 'thuriya' - that is feeling 'nothingness' while doing action. If you empty your ego quotient while doing action, isn't it the same as 'thuriya' state?

    2. Also, what you describe seems to be the 'outcome' -- of karma yoga, of maintaining thuriya successfully, etc. But when I say, 'one has to force himself to think good', I'm describing the process. So are you saying that there will be no rewards for the process but rewards start accruing, upon establishing an alternative thought process only?

    3. I have some more personal observation on the karma part. I think that as per the principles of Newton's law, every action has equal and opposite reaction - as per that, it is the 'effort' that accrues merit rather than the action itself. Therefore, a sinner forcing himself to act against his instinct will earn much more merit than what a yogi doing that same action will earn, is it not? Say, a hunter living his life killing animals, takes to mercy against his innate instincts, to save a cow - in that case, he will potentially earn more merit than what a sadhu doing the same will earn, correct? (So also, a sinning sadhu will earn more bad karma than a petty thief or a habitual murderer doing the same). Therefore, can we say for point #2 above, that 'any effort taken in the direction of bettering one's thoughts will yield good karma and will potentially change character' -- it can be application of discrimination (Viveka) or practicing 'thuriya', the greater the effort, the greater the reward.

    4. I went through the 1st link on 'freewill'. The replies are very profound and beyond my capacity to understand. Is there a gist of what you had arrived at, eventually, as a 'solution'?

    Thank you,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    1. In the above quoted paragraph, it seems to be an alternate form of describing 'thuriya' - that is feeling 'nothingness' while doing action. If you empty your ego quotient while doing action, isn't it the same as 'thuriya' state?

    2. Also, what you describe seems to be the 'outcome' -- of karma yoga, of maintaining thuriya successfully, etc. But when I say, 'one has to force himself to think good', I'm describing the process. So are you saying that there will be no rewards for the process but rewards start accruing, upon establishing an alternative thought process only?

    3. I have some more personal observation on the karma part. I think that as per the principles of Newton's law, every action has equal and opposite reaction - as per that, it is the 'effort' that accrues merit rather than the action itself. Therefore, a sinner forcing himself to act against his instinct will earn much more merit than what a yogi doing that same action will earn, is it not? Say, a hunter living his life killing animals, takes to mercy against his innate instincts, to save a cow - in that case, he will potentially earn more merit than what a sadhu doing the same will earn, correct? (So also, a sinning sadhu will earn more bad karma than a petty thief or a habitual murderer doing the same). Therefore, can we say for point #2 above, that 'any effort taken in the direction of bettering one's thoughts will yield good karma and will potentially change character' -- it can be application of discrimination (Viveka) or practicing 'thuriya', the greater the effort, the greater the reward.

    4. I went through the 1st link on 'freewill'. The replies are very profound and beyond my capacity to understand. Is there a gist of what you had arrived at, eventually, as a 'solution'?
    A few things... I may get a bit specific here, but that is to be sure that accuracy is offered.

    1. Yes, that is turīya ( the 4th). Yet being specific it is not a 'state'. It is called the 4th for a very simple reason : Wake-dream-sleep was 1,2,3 so some one say lets call it the 4th ( and too there is beyond the 4th , but it is not called the 5th).

    Think of a sign wave that goes up-down. That is like wake-dream-sleep... yet the sign wave is just going though a progression - the actual 'wave' itself is doing it. This is ~ like~ turīya going though wake-dream-sleep. Said differently it is expressing itself as wake-dream-sleep. This is just an example and would not hold true under extreme scrutiny, but I use it as an example. I can offer others, but going too-far too-fast will cause confusion.

    2. There is no forcing. This 4th is so delicate, if you force you only push this perfectly stainless turīya ( pure awareness) into doing something else... being force! And it is not a thought process. It is what allows thought to occur, for one to see, hear , smell, think, etc. It is awareness itself. It is very delicate. That is why we meditate - to hone and sharpen the apparatus of intuition to 'get' this delicate stainless level of Being. It is none other than one's Self and this takes some getting use to. So that is why there are techniques. This turīya is the final subject. There is nothing behind it that experiences turīya except itSelf.

    Self is that continuous Being that is always there ( always). Yet if you look for it, it is the awareness behind the looking that allows looking to occur. So, you are looking for the awareness that does the looking ( empowers perception). So, what is one to do? IT knows itSelf by ItSelf. It can come to know itSelf! So, the more you do (effort, strain, pushing, forcing) only is engaging this awareness again and again and pushing it here and there.. It is like asking your eye to look at itself ( without a mirror mind you). That is why there are techniques & teachers. The perfect technique is silence, leaving Self to reveal itSelf to itSelf. The perfect teacher is the one that gives you the least to do to reveal Self. My teacher would say, do less and accomplish more. Yet to the brute, doing less is watching TV and being unproductive. To the enlightened student it is silence in activity.


    3. Cause and effect... in ignorance this makes perfect sense. In liberation, where can there be a cause and effect occurring if there is only YOU everywhere. What will be 'opposite' if all is you ? Again, this takes some getting use to, but needs to be understood, even if not experienced as yet. But you say I throw a ball against a wall and it returns....all well in good. Yet what occurs when you see the ball as an extension of you, the wall as an extension of you? Where is the opposite? Cause and effect works well as an explanation in duality, and that is where it stops.
    To the brute 'you' = the body. To the enlightened student , you = Self/Being/pure stainless awareness that is none other than you always there, all the time.

    That said , this whole notion of 'good and bad' karma needs much more conversation and study. It becomes fashionable to talk of it as good and bad, and that limits one's comprehension of the underlying truth. For some, one word is enough to see the insight, for others it comes with time, patience and persistence. If one is a window shopper going here-to-there then nothing really gets accomplished in comprehension. We need to stick to the knitting .

    Free will - consider this:

    Example 1
    When X occurs, Y occurs
    When X does not occur, Y does not occur.
    I get into an elevator, I push the button for the 5th floor, the elevator moves. If I do not push the button the elevator stands still.
    This is example 1.

    Example 2
    When X does NOT occur, Y occurs.

    In this condition, I do nothing, and yet the elevator moves and I did nothing. One could argue a person say on the 10th floor called for the elevator to come to him so he may get in; yet to you who did nothing, cannot explain what occurred.

    See the point? Sometimes the cause is not accessible to you, yet something occurs. And sometimes you want something to occur and you make a choice to do something, yet the result is not what you expected or desired... you ended up on the 10th floor.

    Or, you play soccer and you what to score a goal. You kick the ball in hopes that it will go into the net, but is not a sure thing. Anything can occur between you making the choice to kick, then kicking the ball... then all the laws of physics take over ( natural law); wind speed, force, etc. Even others trying to block your kick, all this comes in to play. So, our freedom of choice does NOT include ( in it) the outcome. You want to score a goal, that was your intent, yet so many moving parts are at work, to such and extent, even kṛṣṇaḥ -jī informs us 'unfathomable is the course of action'; he also says, even the wise are befuddled by what is action and what is inaction.
    So , when one says I do this or that (action) and look for good karma from it... it is mildly interesting yet does not get to the profundity of what occurs or what does not occur.

    Is there more to this overall conversation? Yet much more. Yet it is like building a house; a strong foundation is needed to place the frame of the house. That frame ( in this case) is one's experience of pure awareness + knowledge. Not any knowlege , but Self-knowledge which comes with time, practice, commitment.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: How Well do you know karma

    Namaste Mystical Soul,

    Nice blog post. It gets the job done of having the reader consider what they've done to earn their own karma. This being said, I do have some questions. I only have time to ask one at present: obviously our thoughts can influence our actions and therefore our karma. But to what extent does our past karma influence our thoughts? In other words, does it work both ways, where thoughts influence karma AND karma influences thoughts?

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