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Thread: Yuga, the start, the end, the reason

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    Yuga, the start, the end, the reason

    Namaste

    I have very minimal knowledge on this subject. All I knew is there are four yuga and they keep repeating. Yuga in my understanding is the age (or the period of time) of the world (not limited to earth)

    Our Epics seem to have occurred during the end and start of old and new yuga respectively. The change over seem to have preceded by a devastating war.

    How devastating was the Raamaayana or Mahabharata war. Were they worse than the World War 1 and 2 (including ongoing war on terrorism and property expansion war)
    Last edited by Anirudh; 06 April 2017 at 02:49 PM.
    Anirudh...

  2. #2

    Re: Yuga, the start, the end, the reason

    Namaste,

    Its a great question. And something I like to ponder over. There are so many theories running around at the moment and it would be good if there was some final conclusion but that may take a certain level of awareness to verify.

    One thing that I consider is the word samsara, samsara means cycle. All that we experience in the world of illusion are cycles, every day we have a cycle, months have cycles, the universe has cycles, the ordinary mind has cycles, the physical body has a cycle, cells have a cycle, a clock has a cycle, the planets rotate in cycles, so within the world of matter everything is in a process of a cycle. So from gross to the most subtle matter is rotating in cycles.

    Brahma Day has a cycle, his 100 years is the cycle of the universe. Whats exactly is the universe in terms of Vedas and Puranas. Maybe its not as straight forward as it seems.

    Depending on our level of consciousness we will witness maya in a certain type of cycle. Do yugas ultimately represent stages of conscious cycles, are the mystical portions of the teachings of Lord Rama only revealed in Treta Yuga and is it a stage of consciousness or was he really around a few million years ago does it belong to a linear timeline. Krsna was in Dwarpa yuga, can we only really hear the message of Bhagavad Gita when we have transcended the qualties of Kali Yuga, quarrel and duplicity.

    I have more questions on this than answers. Bhagavatam was spoken by Avadhuta Sukadeva goswami and in 5Th canto there is a description of the universe, is he really talking about the external universe, maybe, what ever starts from within will become gross, but are the realms in their original states very expanded states of mind or abodes of consciousness, some have said the 4 yugas only exist in this Earth. Whatever we experience or even observe out there is still only within this earth due the limitation of our consciousness.

    I tend to think there are two levels or ways to understand the yugas, the external universal the objective universe, and a more subtle inner universe that is joined in more unified ways in consciousness, where one can only witness and experience in states beyond the gross senses and mind. Both the inner and the outer are connected in one form of another. I have heard it said that no matter what Dharma is spoken or taught its never supposed to leave the boundry of the skin.

    Is it mostly a lost science, what type of language or rather what state of consciousness was Sukadeva Rishi speaking, what form or state of consciousness was Pariksit Maharaja in when he was listening.

    How to find the layer of each revealed truth and put it in the right context, or can the right context be found while we have layers of ignorance or maya.

    I am just throwing a few things out there to stimulate some thought, but one thing for sure is that samsara is mass complex formation of cycles both on the gross and subtle levels.

    बिन धरती एक मंडल दीसे,बिन सरोवर जूँ पानी रेगगन मंडलू में होए उजियाला,बोल गुरु-मुख बानी हो जी ll 4 ll

    Instead of seeing earth, see it as merely a sphere. Seeing a lake, understand it is nothing but water. When one starts experiencing the underlying unifying principle over apparent diversity and duality, knowing dawns. So says the voice and words of the Guru.

    Kabir
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 06 April 2017 at 02:42 PM.

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    Re: Yuga, the start, the end, the reason

    Namaste Markandeya 108 Dasa

    Thanks for your reply. Sri Chinna Jeeyar has made some presentation (mostly in Telugu) which describe the day of human being to the day of Sriman Naaraayan.

    Is it mostly a lost science, what type of language or rather what state of consciousness was Sukadeva Rishi speaking, what form or state of consciousness was Pariksit Maharaja in when he was listening.
    Please throw more light on this part as I do not wish to miss the your view point.


    I am just throwing a few things out there to stimulate some thought, but one thing for sure is that samsara is mass complex formation of cycles both on the gross and subtle levels.
    Motive behind my question was to understand the nature of destruction happened during the war occurred in Raamaayana and Mahabharata.

    I see importance in it because we mostly think worse than the present event can not happen only to be proved wrong on a later date. I can give many examples.

    One dastardly ugly example. We all must have heard about Delhi rape case aka nirbhaya, but not many would be knowing about an incident that occurred after nirbhaya near Haryana. The victim was mentally challenged, after committing the ghastly act, victim was thrown near dumping ground as a prey to pack of street dogs. Reports say during postmortem Dr(s) found many foreign body including cigarette buds, broken glass, pot etc inside victims body. Worst part was cleaning personals found the victim alive while street dogs were feasting.

    I know it will be very difficult to stomach my narrative, my point is, such thing continued to happen even after nirbhaya case which shook the world.

    So in that context wish to understand the cycle of yuga and what is yet to come.

    PS. I am not presenting India under the bad light, just sharing documentary which I saw recently in crime patrol series.
    Anirudh...

  4. #4

    Re: Yuga, the start, the end, the reason

    Namaste Anirudh Ji,

    Is it mostly a lost science, what type of language or rather what state of consciousness was Sukadeva Rishi speaking, what form or state of consciousness was Pariksit Maharaja in when he was listening.


    Please throw more light on this part as I do not wish to miss the your view point.
    I will just add a few personal musing or reflections. The cosmology of the Bhagavatam deals with the universe, its cycles and the yugas. Sukadeva Goswami was an avadhuta, or he had no interest in the outside world and was fully absorbed in the perfected state of Self Realization, Pariksit Maharaja was bitten by the naga Taxila, which was also a place and university in ancient Kashmir which was famous for its study of processes and sciences of consciousness and the sciences of self realization, my understanding that the Naga Taxila is an opening somewhere in the nadis or nervous system which gives one a a certain type of awareness and so therefore Avadhuta Sukadeva could speak to him about the Bhagavatam in a language that can only be understood by varying states of transcendence or above ordinary human mind, more mystical states, its just told as a simple story that he was bitten by snake and was poisoned and would die in seven days, it has a more indepth mystical meaning, so the point of understanding this is that the transmission between Sukadeva Rishi and Maharaja Parikshit who was partial incarnation of Vishnu was not to talk or point to anything in the outside world or if he did it was only about repeating cycles and he taught him a yogic or path to Self Realization in a language that few can understand today, or maybe only if they have an evolved level of consciousness.

    So the yugas are taught in terms of cyclic consciousness, and it is consciousness that effects the outside world, so from Dharmic point of view the importance is on the quality of consciousness not the outside world which are endless cycles. So I am suggesting that the shastras are really talking in a more mystical language have very little interest in the external world and will only give teachings to reach the abode of Self realization, which is not small or simple minded subject.

    In Bhagavad Gita in Arjuna's dejected and sorrowful depressed state Krsna first words was to tell him to get out of ignorance and drove Him into the knowledge of how to see the Atma, he didn't get involved in the external affairs, what is cultivated in our consciousness will effect the outside world. So the point of Ramayana and Mahabharata are only to lead us into knowledge of Self realization, the opposite side to Self Realization is greed, hatred, envy, the klesha which lead to all sorts of war.

    The yugas will always exist in the objective world, and they will repeat in Cycles, has the world always been a worn torn platform, has one living entity always lived off another for its survival, has science found the original point where there was once an objective point in history where everyone lived in utopia?

    Is the modern world getting worse or is it getting better, its hard to say, somethings maybe are better than the ancient world but others things maybe worse, that in itself is a subject of debate. Did the actual realizations proper happen on a mass scale in more ancient times more than they are today, there are still many people seeking and experiencing spirituality but maybe the language and settings and formats have changed. We often tend to be romantic about the past, but krsna says that only few get to really understand Him or the Highest Truth, and Gita is not bound by time.

    I got some clues from Sri Aurobindo who says the the ancient language of the Rishis is lost, they had a different brain and expressed a language that in todays world it would not be understood, I consider this true in many portions of Srimad Bhagavatam and even Bhagavad Gita too, which is apparently more straight forward, but perhaps only due to the commentaries that have been made over times, but the deeper our realizations then something more is discovered. Thats doesn't mean their message has ever been lost as it is above and beyond time, and we have different sadhus and sages updating and blending it with the changes of time, material nature is never the same twice, I heard never in the history of this planet has there ever been 2 snowflakes exactly the same, so all is changing, transforming in constant flux, this will also include language and culture but the Truth or Ultimate Reality will never change.

    Was world war 2 any worse than the conquest of the planet of Genghis Khan, both the Islamic and Christian Jihadist were very Brutal, in fact if you study any country within history you will find mostly bloodshed, war and fights for power, its a perpetual constant cycle. So therefore I am more inclined to think that the Yugas are states of consciousness rather than linear historical timelines. Kali Yugas exists within the grosser elements, the other four yugas get more subtle and expansive as dimensions or abodes of consciousness.

    We are very much controlled by the media, we tend to hear only the bad news, but usually when we walk down the street in daily life if we have clarity of consciousness things are going on quite normal in most people lives. If they had the news and all the records of every aspect of the world 500-1000 or longer years ago you will probably find the same problems.

    As i say this is just my thoughts on this subject at the moment.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 06 April 2017 at 04:02 PM.

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    Re: Yuga, the start, the end, the reason

    Namaste Markandeya 108 Dasa

    Thanks for your reply. I have many questions on your views but I do not have a complete picture of our scriptures. So it won't correct to raise question what has been offered.

    I have listened to commentaries of Srimad Bhagavad Purana which describe all involved characters as real in a particular time frame. Also I understand deterioration of Dharma make the world slip into the next yuga. I understand, it is difficult to define world. I hope other senior members will be able to understand your views.
    Anirudh...

  6. #6

    Re: Yuga, the start, the end, the reason

    Namaste Anridhu Ji,


    I am certainly not any authority on this and to get the answer is not easy too, I see that there are two ways to understand the yugas, one through mathematics and the other through purification of the mind. I choose the later as for one it would take years of dedication under the right type of teacher to learn the Vedic sciences in a mathematical way.

    And also to see them as not just as objective periods in our history but also as sates of Maya or covering of maya that cover our original consciousness. And that there is two ways to read and understand Shastra, one objectively as in the outer universe and the second as subjectivity as within something deeper and not so easily identified where it purifies consciousness.


    The second one also requires years of learning under the direction of sadhus in whatever way they reach out to us and how we are surrendering to the process of Self Realization.


    This universe is existing on 3 levels, subjective ( our experience as individuals ) Objective ( shared experiences of external phenomena, like we all see the same sun everyday ) and Cognitive ( Conscious reality ) which includes both and more and is the underlying reality of both subjectivity and objectivity .


    The shastras will deal with all 3, and what I posted is to focus a little more on Yugas as cycles of consciousness. Its not an easy subject as it will strike right at the heart of Vedic sciences and cosmology, both objectively and subjectively.


    Nowadays as far as I can see the Yugas are dealt with much more objectively. Kali Yuga started 5000 years ago just after Sri Krsna left the planet, and since then the world is gradually subjected by time to get worse and worse until Kalki Avatara comes and wipes all degraded beings off the planet and thus paves the way for Satya Yuga to begin again and then the Highest divinity and a Utopian world reigns and so the cycle again continues eternally.


    Over the last coupe of years it came to my attention how ISKCON for example believes very strongly in the external linear timleines of the Yugas and in the 5th Canto the descriptions of the universe are also taken as purely objective, and the true objective structure of the universe as described in Bhagavatam is covered due to our faulty senses.


    In effect what they are saying is that BrahmA ji lives X amount of Yojanas from this planet earth upwards at the top of the physcial universe on his planet and in between there are other celestial planets full of devas and demigids and all sorts of divine beings all rotating around Mount Meru, which is a huge mountain in the 4th dimension ( which to them exist somewhere out there in a subtle realm), all this exists on a subtle dimension or because our senses are gross we cant see them and by purification of the senses we will see as an outward observation the full Jagat or universe.


    That however is not the only explanation and from other sources the Universe described is more seen as coming from a viewing area that exists within the subtle mind and experienced as states of consciousness or abodes, Mount Meru is in fact Kundalini and the lokas, which doesnt really mean planets are abodes of consciousness that exists on different levels upwards or downwards on Meru and BrahmA Ji sits on the top. This offers a more subtle and mystical landscape to the universe.


    So the the question would be how to string together the subjective, objective and cognitive features of the whole, the inner and the outer in alignment with Bhagavatam.


    I have offered these thoughts to the ISCKON devotees in a unchallenging way, but they are either more concerned about round earth, flat earth and weather Nasa is a real scientific institution or some sort of conspiracy cover up. So I didnt get a lot of sense out of them, but they will be more along the lines that Bhagatavam is describing an objective picture of the Yugas and the Universal set up, and thats hard for me to accept, but its just my instinct because my sanskirt is not good enough. But I want to look at one example from one verse in 5th Canto.


    Again I am not an authority and just adding some of my thoughts to see if we are in fact studying Bhagavatam in the right way, as I see it more, espcially for myself a text on meditation to purify the subjective yugas which are forces of Maya. Most portions of Shastra are pointing towards and explaining experience.


    rājovāca
    uktas tvayā bhū-maṇḍalāyāma-viśeṣo yāvad ādityas tapati yatra cāsau jyotiṣāṁ gaṇaiś candramā vā saha dṛśyate.


    Synonyms:
    rājā uvāca — Mahārāja Parīkṣit said; uktaḥ — already been said; tvayā — by you; bhū-maṇḍala — of the planetary system known as Bhū-maṇḍala; āyāma-viśeṣaḥ — the specific length of the radius; yāvat — as far as; ādityaḥ — the sun; tapati — heats; yatra — wherever; ca — also; asau — that; jyotiṣām — of the luminaries; gaṇaiḥ — with hordes; candramā — the moon; vā — either; saha — with; dṛśyate — is seen.




    Translation:


    King Parīkṣit said to Śukadeva Gosvāmī: O brāhmaṇa, you have already informed me that the radius of Bhū-maṇḍala extends as far as the sun spreads its light and heat and as far as the moon and all the stars can be seen.


    I am not going to get into the sanskrit as I am not good enough, but the translation to me is to literal and its given to much of literal meaning, but this is only one example but i will offer one way to perhaps look to see how it was spoken and in what context. And this is the theme of the Bhagavatam in todays speaking as far as I can see and its become to objective and literal and is fast losing its essence as a mystical text and has more or less fallen into a fancy intellectual dogma.


    Bhu-Mandal can be seen as the earth but also it is a sphere and sphere's can be conscious widths and dimensions


    ādityaḥ - is ādityaḥ really the round globe of fire that we see rise and fall everyday in the sky. Most here will know that ādityaḥ has much more meaning as celestial deities or deva or and 12 ādityaḥ for each month of the year all with a lot more significance than just a round ball of fire floating in space.


    Tapa- means heat, but in deeper yogic language tapa is a heat which purifies consciousness and raises more subtle states of mind for understand the sciences of Self Realization.


    Yatra- means journey, both outer yatra and also inner yatra, so again it could be pointing to an inner experience an inner journey


    jyotiṣām- has many meanings but if I stick to these same train of thought it would be describing an iillumination with the journey and yatra and tapa within the rays of aditya the celestial beings and devas associated with surya. So here the words start to fit in where the journey is seen as a grand illumination or its desrbing a grand illumination not an objective field in the outer universe.


    candramā- or moon also is a celestial deva which has its own illuminations and significance which is much more profound than the moon we see in cycles every month in the sky.


    dṛśyate- seen or vision, it is also used in yogic language as vision or seeing within a state of dhyana or samadhi, not just objective seeing with the normal sight of the eyes.


    So what I am pointing to in a very amateur and neophyte way based on some study in reflection with the aid of meditation to purify the mind is that Shastra has double meanings, one is objective, whatever is going on in the inner universe is ultimately reflecting outside in gross matter, but it has a more subtle source and the verification of more subtle universal truths exist within a very different type of world. And the language is not literal and is speaking about or describing something very mystical and profound in experience and vision.


    And my other point is to research that yugas are in fact coverings of maya within our own subjective world, not just external historical timelines.


    So is there also a way to see these as yugas as conscious abodes and different coverings of maya.


    Satya Yuga,s the first of the four Yugas, the "Yuga (Age or Era) of Truth", when consciousness is directly covered by the deva's, and every manifestation or work is close to the purest ideal intrinsic goodness to rule supreme. The most subtle state an purest state.


    Treta Yuga is the second out of the four yugas, or ages of mankind,. Treta means 'a collection of three things' in Sanskrit, and is called so because during the Treta Yuga, there were three Avatars of Vishnu that were seen, the fifth, sixth and seventh incarnations as Vamana, Parashurama and Rama respectively.




    There are only two pillars of religion during the Dvapara Yuga: compassion and truthfulness. On gains council from Sri Krsna in this yuga.


    Kali Yuga- the lowest form of consciousness. Which is purified by external ritual and chanting using the body and mind and senses in union to gradually make them more subtle and then raise up to Dvapara Yuga.


    So this is just a brief explanation on my thoughts of how Shastra is ultimately purifying us through conscious levels and experiences and describing yugas as stages of maya.


    Its not a simple subject, nor is it easy to attain to this knowledge, I often think how is it possible to gain such supra mental knowledge with the available faculties we have as ordinary human beings tossed around by the waves of Maya, but also how great and all inclusive the knowledge of the ancients and rishis were, how deep and sophisticated and utterly scientific.

    As i say its been part of my reflection for a while.

    But the questions remain, was the past better, India certainly went through some very auspicious seasons and was empowered along the way buy some great Beings, Adi Shankara, Siddharta Gautama, Kabir, Guru Nanak, Sri Chaitanya and many others who have boosted and kept this great knowledge alive and made available to general public. But I also wonder were the external situations as idealistic as we like to make out, all sadhus knows and tells us and constantly reminds us that this world is not our home, this we have no choice, we either see this a reality with higher level of consciousness or we just get reminded at the time of death. Only the Atma or consciousness whatever that is lasts, all else which is arising due to conditions are subject to change and decay in constant cycles.

    Harih Om
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 07 April 2017 at 07:35 AM.

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