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Thread: Why are souls found in samsara?

  1. #1
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    Why are souls found in samsara?

    Namaste all.

    According to Vishishtadvaita,why are souls found in samsara?

    Pranama,
    Orlando
    I aspire to be the servant of the servant of Lord Krishna

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    Re: Why are souls found in samsara?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    there are 'souls' (plural) only when one thinks there are 'individuals'. The paradigm for vaiṣṇavism is the śrīmad bhāgavad gītā. It informs us of the following:

    brahmārpaṇaṁ brahma haviḥ brahmāgnau brahmaṇā hutam|
    brahmaiva tena gantavyaṁ brahma karma samādhinā||4.24

    brahman¹ is the offering (arpaṇam), brahman is the oblation (havis) poured by brahman into the fire (agnau) that is brahman.
    to brahman alone must he go who is fixed in brahman through action.||4. 24

    What is outside of brahman? Where is ~individual~ in soul or in body called out here?


    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    1. brahma = brahman ( pure Being, the ocean of pure awareness); the term brahmā is that of the trimūrti i.e. the 3 forms , brahmā, viṣṇu, & śiva
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 April 2017 at 07:09 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Why are souls found in samsara?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    What is outside of brahman? Where is ~individual~ in soul or in body called out here?
    ... yet herein lies the pickle... I feel individual, see individual, see duality and multiplicity all around. How can that be?

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Why are souls found in samsara?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    ...but where is this brahman in me ?


    once again we needn't look any further than the śrīmad bhāgavad gītā2 and what kṛṣṇaḥ -jī says to arjuna ( or in this verse he is called guḍākeśa or ‘thick haired’; keśa = the hair on the head and guḍā = a globe)

    ahamātmā guḍākeśa sarvabhūtāśayasthitaḥ |
    aham ādiśca madhyaṃ ca bhūtānāmanta eva ca || 10.20

    I am the Self (ātmā, soul, pure Being) O’guḍākeśa!1 of all beings (bhūta3), seated (sthitaḥ4) within (āśaya). I am the beginning, middle and end of all beings.|| 10.20

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    1. within devanāgarī script which saṃskṛta is written, there is no exclamation mark (!);the way it is indicated is how the term is written i.e what ~case~ the noun is written in. Guḍākeśa is written in the vocative case . Most grammarians see this as a variation on the 1st case (nominative vibhakti); Another name for vocative is saṁbodhana or awakening, arousing.
    Example: śivaḥ - this is shown in the nominative case; compared to śiva = O’śiva ( and this is saṁbodhana case); it is like saying Hey Bill ! or O’lord! It is considered an an interjection.
    2. gītā = song or a song; if written as gīta ( no long ā) that = singing. Hence the śrīmad bhāgavad gītā is the song of the lord. See this HDF post if there is interest: http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthr...080#post129080
    3. bhūta – beings; this is not limit to human beings only. In fact bhūta (being) is also defined as pure, mixed or joined. It also is defined as ‘that which is or exists’.
    4. sthitaḥ = I used seated; it also means residing, resting or abiding
    Last edited by yajvan; 25 April 2017 at 02:35 PM. Reason: add'l material
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #5
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    Re: Why are souls found in samsara?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    It seems to me the reader may have two questions that need to be resolved ( from the posts I offered above)

    1. ...but where is this brahman in me ? This was answered by kṛṣṇaḥ -jī saying, I am the Self (ātmā, soul, pure Being) O’guḍākeśa! of all beings (bhūta)
    2. I feel individual, see individual, see duality and multiplicity all around. How can that be?

    Question 1
    Kṛṣṇaḥ-jī says he is Self/
    ātmā of all beings... he did not say 'I am brahman'. How do the wise come to the conclusion that they are one and the same ?

    Let's call upon
    māṇḍūkya upaniṣad (māṇḍūkyopaniṣat), one of 10 core upaniads1 we find in our śāstra-s to assist us here:

    सर्वं ह्येतद् ब्रह्मायमात्मा ब्रह्म सोऽयमात्मा चतुष्पात् ॥ २
    sarvaṃ hyetad brahmāyamātmā brahma so'yamātmā catuṣpāt || 2

    this says,
    all, wholly, (sarvaṁ) this (etad) is brahman,
    ātman is brahman ; this (sa) ātman has four quarters (catuṣpāt) ||2

    Hence
    ātman = ātmā = brahman = Self = kṛṣṇaḥ, found in all beings.

    Question 2
    I feel individual, see individual, see duality and multiplicity all around. How can that be?

    This same māṇḍūkyopaniṣat verse gives us the 1st hint: ātman has four quarters (catuṣpāt) ||

    We as humans also have these 4 quarters, yet pay more attention to the first 3 ( wake-dream-sleep); it is the 4th, turīya , and written in the verse above as 'catuṣpāt', that one tends to overlook. It is overlooked for many reasons, the simplest is it does not present itself to you, the human, as an ~ object~. Think of how you rise in the morning, the waking state is ~presented~ to you from sleep. There is a clear distinction in experience.
    From wake to dream or from dream to sleep we sense a difference. Yet with turīya it is not so obvious, but it is there all the time. In fact the other other 3 conditions ( some like to call avasthā-s, states, conditions) are predicated upon ( depend upon) turīya. In fact, the wise say the 3 avasthā-s are nothing more than the expression of turīya.

    So, we can continue this idea and develop it overall, or one can also read it directly in the
    māṇḍūkyopaniṣat, of which is just 12 verses. Yet for the one that has great interest and wishes to do a deep dive in understanding this can read gauḍapāda-ji's māṇdūkaya-kārikā (some call māṇdūkayakārikā). Yet for the person who is completely captured by this knowledge and wants to take it even further, he/she can add to these 2, one more book:The Method of Early Advaita Vedānta , by Michael Comans.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ
    1. more here on the
    10 core upaniads :http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?4617-10-upani%E1%B9%A3ad-s-worth-studying

    Last edited by yajvan; 26 April 2017 at 12:10 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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