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Thread: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

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    Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste all,
    As a person with a Buddhist background, I have studied those teachings on the cause for rebirth in samsara.

    But I'm interested how Hindus present the cause for rebirth. Is the state of bondage due to ignorance, or other factors? And if so, ignorance of what? Are there differing views on this within Hinduism?

    I guess this leads, by implication, to teachings on what constitutes the Pashu and the path to moksha.

    Thank you.

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste sir,

    I want to attempt this question as I am seeing silence so far from the learned, so that I may have an opportunity to have my view corrected, perhaps.

    According to Hindu belief, man's mind is deluded by the 5 sense organs. The discerning intellect are blinded in turn by three types of ignorance, namely, egotism, illusion and karma.

    1. Mind deluded by 5 sense organs : A man sees a beautiful woman and loses his power over his self-control and plays up to her whims and fancies. He sins because he wants pleasure. This is an example of how man can lose his self-control because of the sense organs. The key issue here is one's control over the 5 senses. Many of us do not have it.

    2. Intellect deluded by egotism, illusion and karma: Even if we are wrong, and we know it, many of us are against acknowledging it or taking actions to rectify our mistakes. This is due to ego.

    Even if we have fair control over ego, our intellect is deluded many times over what is right or wrong. For example (just for example, not for discussion) "Is caste system right or wrong?". "Do sex-workers deserve proper marriage later in life?" -- many such questions cross our minds from time to time, we know not what is absolute right action, and we are prone to make wrong choices many times.

    Even if we are un-egoistic and our intellect is illusion-free mostly, our karma binds us to acting in a specific way, against ourselves! For example, two men and a beautiful woman ride on a boat. One of the men doesn't know swimming and the other man knows to swim. At one point, the man who cannot swim accidentally falls off of the boat. The other man, though he can help, is overcome by his own karma (deeds from the past) impulsively rejects the plea of the beautiful woman and fails to save the fallen man! Within just a few minutes, 1 life is lost! Now the other man feels bad, he wonders how come he refused to save the man, but it is too late to worry! This is because out of karma, man becomes impulsive to act in 1 way many times...

    * * *

    So above are the reasons for rebirth - delusions of the mind and delusions of the intellect.

    I hope the learned can explain to you the answer for your question with examples from the great texts. Meanwhile, I hope I have offered some help!
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    According to Hindu belief, man's mind is deluded by the 5 sense organs. The discerning intellect are blinded in turn by three types of ignorance, namely, egotism, illusion and karma.
    Namaste Viraja,
    Thank you for your considered and very informative reply, it has given me much to consider. I guess the sense organs themselves are not inherently contaminated, rather the witnessing consciousness is not processing the impressions in accordance with the truth. A saint and a normal person sees the same things but the subjective effect would be very different.

    I have looked a little into Advaita and Spanda, which teach a great deal about the ultimate goal, so I was never sure I understood the opposite end; ie; the bound state and its cause. The terminology around this aspect is very different from that taught within Buddhism, so offers another perspective on the 'human condition' in its basic state.

    I was never sure how much 'divine will' played a part in bondage. Insomuch as I have heard that the divine hid him/herself within creation in order to forget where he/she had hidden herself; a divine game of hide and seek. This would imply a willingness of the Atman to abide in delusion before coming to insight, but perhaps this is hearsay, or just one presentation among many?

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste

    Until now I did not find a more detailed and amazing demonstration as the ‚Wheel of life‘ of Tibetean Buddhism.

    This Video gives a fine description – starting at 5.50 min.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8qkV4RKDyY

    Pranam
    Dance with Shiva - live with Shiva - merge with Shiva

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    Namaste all,
    But I'm interested how Hindus present the cause for rebirth. Is the state of bondage due to ignorance, or other factors? And if so, ignorance of what? Are there differing views on this within Hinduism?
    I guess this leads, by implication, to teachings on what constitutes the Pashu and the path to moksha.
    Thank you.
    I am interested in what you think/consider is reborn and what has died? Surely it is not Self/Being that dies. How do I know this? I look to the bhāgavad gītā and kṛṣṇa-jī's terms for my support, chapter 2, 12th śloka:
    na tvevāhaṁ jātu nāsa ṁ na tva ṁ neme janādhipāḥ |
    na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ sarve vayam ataḥ param ||
    2.12

    this says,
    there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men.
    Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be ||2.12

    So what then is coming and going? We need to understand this a bit more, no?

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    Last edited by yajvan; 16 November 2017 at 06:56 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    So what then is coming and going? We need to understand this a bit more, no?

    You see, pending the school of thought (darṣana1) one is considering, there can be several views on this matter...

    The notion is getting comfortable with is the 3 main views:

    · there is a dualistic view ( some call dvaita or bheda)
    · a non-dual view some call monistic (or advaita) and abheda-śruti applies
    · a dual-non-dual or mono-dualistic ( some call bhedābheda - see the next paragraph for a description )

    • bheda = separation, breaking , splitting , cleaving – therefore diversity, multiplicity, duality.
    • abheda = absence of difference or distinction – wholeness, fullness without break or pause.
    • therefore bhedābheda = unity within diversity.


    So , it is very difficult to say Hinduism ( sanātana dharma) says this or that specifically on this birth and death subject, as it all depends on the vision of the seer.

    I have found that the abheda school accepts all other schools as they are included in the whole and finds no ~difference~ i.e. it is as it should be.

    On all this ~change~ we view around us
    An incorrect view of the world ( some say unreal, false) is simply because of its transitory nature. That is, it is impermanent. It ( the world) is full of change. For something to be real it must be changeless; the absence of all change. This is the definition we will go with, as that is what gauḍapādacharya2 informs us of, and it is backed up by the śrīmad bhāgavad gītā & kṛṣṇaḥ -jī’s words in chapter 2, 16th verse, the unreal has no being, the real never ceases to be.

    A simple example:
    Think of the apple... it was non-existent in the beginning; and in the end it decomposed and is no more. And, if you asked a scientist, the apple is in constant state of change i.e. growing and eroding or decomposing, not to mention apple A is not consistent with apple B ( in size, shape, atom count, etc). Hence, using gauḍapādacharya’s point of view, it too must be considered ~unreal~ while in the middle condition i.e. of it being an apple for a short time ( before it was a seed, and before the seed it was the sap of the tree). See the point?
    If something is truly real (sat or satya) it must be changeless. If something is absolutely unreal, like a square circle ( usually the child of a barren woman is used as the example) then this is asat. These things can be conceived but has no basis in fact. Clearly we can state these things are ideas, but not observable or anchored in fact.

    This conversation can continue, yet if one is not grounded in the knowledge these terms and ideas will cause some consternation and not be fully thought out. If one cares to go deeper and wider into this whole notion , consider this HDF post/string:
    http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthr...incorrect-view


    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ


    1. darṣana – seeing, knowing; view , doctrine , philosophical system
    I always recommend The 6 systems of Indian Philosophy ( 2 volume set) for one just putting their foot in the water ( getting one's bearing). It gives you a broad view of the core 6 systems of Indian thought. I count 16 schools, yet these 6 are core and will serve one well.


    2. Gauḍapāda-ji was the guru of govinda bhagavatpāda who, in turn was the guru of ādi śaṅkara (śaṅkara bhagavatpāda); hence gauḍapāda-ji is the teacher’s teacher of ādi śaṅkara, sometimes referred to as one’s grand-master. It is these masters that formed and shaped the knowledge of advaita ( non-dual) vedānta.
    • gauḍapādiyakārikā is also known as māṇḍūkyopaniṣatkārikā (māṇḍūkya-upaniṣad-kārikā) done in 215 verses , 4 chapters of which is his commentary on the māṇḍūkya-upaniṣad.

    Last edited by yajvan; 16 November 2017 at 08:09 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    I am interested in what you think/consider is reborn and what has died? Surely it is not Self/Being that dies. How do I know this? I look to the bhāgavad gītā and kṛṣṇa-jī's terms for my support, chapter 2, 12th śloka:
    na tvevāhaṁ jātu nāsa ṁ na tva ṁ neme janādhipāḥ |
    na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ sarve vayam ataḥ param ||
    2.12

    this says,
    there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men.
    Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be ||2.12

    So what then is coming and going? We need to understand this a bit more, no?

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    Namaste Yajvan
    Thanks for the reply. Yes, the above is a very interesting question and can be answered on many levels. This provides much 'merriment' on Buddhist forums where people who believe in 'some kind of transmigration' are accused of eternalism (Atman and so forth) and those who say self does not exist are accused of nihilism. Of course, if we accept non-dual teachings, such arguments are irrelevant.

    So, for me it is more the question of investigating teachings around the contracted, bound state, as I find the exposition of this to be quite diverse and unclear (for me at least) in some sources.

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    You see, pending the school of thought (darṣana1) one is considering, there can be several views on this matter...

    The notion is getting comfortable with is the 3 main views:

    · there is a dualistic view ( some call dvaita or bheda)
    · a non-dual view some call monistic (or advaita) and abheda-śruti applies
    · a dual-non-dual or mono-dualistic ( some call bhedābheda - see the next paragraph for a description )

    • bheda = separation, breaking , splitting , cleaving – therefore diversity, multiplicity, duality.
    • abheda = absence of difference or distinction – wholeness, fullness without break or pause.
    • therefore bhedābheda = unity within diversity.


    So , it is very difficult to say Hinduism ( sanātana dharma) says this or that specifically on this birth and death subject, as it all depends on the vision of the seer.

    I have found that the abheda school accepts all other schools as they are included in the whole and finds no ~difference~ i.e. it is as it should be.


    Namaste,
    Thank you for that. I suspected that there was such a diversity but that makes it clear.


    On all this ~change~ we view around us
    An incorrect view of the world ( some say unreal, false) is simply because of its transitory nature. That is, it is impermanent. It ( the world) is full of change. For something to be real it must be changeless; the absence of all change. This is the definition we will go with, as that is what gauḍapādacharya2 informs us of, and it is backed up by the śrīmad bhāgavad gītā & kṛṣṇaḥ -jī’s words in chapter 2, 16th verse, the unreal has no being, the real never ceases to be.


    This accords with
    the observation of the Buddha sabbe sankhara Anicca and Nagarjuna's definition; the flip side of this is that he uses this very reasoning to refute the changeless Atman, as he claims that there is nothing which can be established which is not transitory in nature.

    This conversation can continue, yet if one is not grounded in the knowledge these terms and ideas will cause some consternation and not be fully thought out. If one cares to go deeper and wider into this whole notion , consider this HDF post/string:
    I'll check that out when I get the opportunity.

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    1. darṣana – seeing, knowing; view , doctrine , philosophical system
    I always recommend The 6 systems of Indian Philosophy ( 2 volume set) for one just putting their foot in the water ( getting one's bearing). It gives you a broad view of the core 6 systems of Indian thought. I count 16 schools, yet these 6 are core and will serve one well.


    2. Gauḍapāda-ji was the guru of govinda bhagavatpāda who, in turn was the guru of ādi śaṅkara (śaṅkara bhagavatpāda); hence gauḍapāda-ji is the teacher’s teacher of ādi śaṅkara, sometimes referred to as one’s grand-master. It is these masters that formed and shaped the knowledge of advaita ( non-dual) vedānta.
    • gauḍapādiyakārikā is also known as māṇḍūkyopaniṣatkārikā (māṇḍūkya-upaniṣad-kārikā) done in 215 verses , 4 chapters of which is his commentary on the māṇḍūkya-upaniṣad.

    Advaita is interesting, as there is one school of Buddhism which seems to propound a similar structure, albeit with very different components.
    In Advita, there is Maya as a conventional truth and
    Nirguna Brahman as the ultimate truth. The Madhyamika Prasangika teach a doctrine of two truths; conventional (Maya) and ultimate (emptiness). I personally don't subscribe to metaphysical doctrines, but they remain popular.

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste

    We can make a brain train out of everything. What we kill with this approach is the mystery and the intuition that leads to the mystery.

    For me it is not important ‚what‘ is reborn and ‚what‘ dies, but that this process happens. Famous philosophers of all cultures and schools discuss about the enigma since endless times without any success, mankind will never find it out.

    The senses are a key problem to keep us cought in the wheel of life.

    Kena Upanishad I 4 to 8 talks about the mystery so beautiful

    What cannot be spoken with words, but that whereby words are spoken: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
    What cannot be thought with the mind, but that whereby the mind can think: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
    What cannot be seen with the eye, but that whereby the eye can see: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
    What cannot be heard with the ear, but that whereby the ear can hear: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
    What cannot be indrawn with breath, but that whereby breath is indrawn: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.

    Pranam
    Dance with Shiva - live with Shiva - merge with Shiva

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indialover View Post
    Namaste

    We can make a brain train out of everything. What we kill with this approach is the mystery and the intuition that leads to the mystery.

    For me it is not important ‚what‘ is reborn and ‚what‘ dies, but that this process happens. Famous philosophers of all cultures and schools discuss about the enigma since endless times without any success, mankind will never find it out.

    The senses are a key problem to keep us cought in the wheel of life.

    Kena Upanishad I 4 to 8 talks about the mystery so beautiful

    What cannot be spoken with words, but that whereby words are spoken: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
    What cannot be thought with the mind, but that whereby the mind can think: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
    What cannot be seen with the eye, but that whereby the eye can see: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
    What cannot be heard with the ear, but that whereby the ear can hear: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
    What cannot be indrawn with breath, but that whereby breath is indrawn: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.

    Pranam
    Namaste Indialover,
    Thank you for this.

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