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Thread: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

  1. #31
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Anjali Srivijaya,

    It may need a separate thread, but as long as nobody minds I think it's good to continue here as it will evolve into perfect synthesis.

    According to abhidharma vipassana is not possible without samatha, samatha calm abiding is the prerequisite of vipassana, if mind is unbalanced then insight will not happen. Samatha also has a cause, which is vitakka pali and vitarka sanskrit having applied thought on an object of meditation which is usually the breath and recommended if mind is wavering to much to use a mantra with the rytham of the breath. When this is developed then vichara is harmonised then there is steadiness on the meditation object and samatha is then the basis and reaches first jhana and mind is uplifted to the state of priti or feeling of spontaneous joy and happiness in concentration. From this vipassana is activated and vichara then is associated with study of phenomenon and one sees the rises and fall of all conditions in the mind and full insight into annica or impermanence, one then by direct insight sees the causes and conditions of rebirth and becoming.

    So samatha and vipassana although different are functional with each other, you can't have one without the other.
    Namaste markandeya,
    What you have written is absolutely correct, I just wish more people were aware of it. I think, especially among westerners, there are some odd ideas concerning samatha and the jhanas which discourage their pursuit.

    Thervada is a samadhi tradition, not intellectual .
    Indeed, it's experiential, though many make it into a metaphysical, philosophical and intellectual exercise.


    I consider that the upanishads are for the few, although interesting to dip into from time to time, the teaching s of the upanishads is very high and in ancient india those knowledges which was experienced by pratyaksha direct perception was only spoken to the few who were ready. Many of the bikkhus I know have a lot of respect for vedanta and upanishads but treat them with caution. They have the correct balance as far as I can see.
    I'm really not well informed about the upanishads, though I'm currently reading the Yoga Vasishtha, from which this amazing piece is taken:
    http://www.spiritual-minds.com/returntoshiva.htm

  2. #32
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    So, where is the difference ? The differences are in choices of words and preferences of the paths.
    Namaste devotee,
    Thank you for your wise words. Regarding the difference, I think it is difficult to summarize as there are many approaches both within Buddhism and Hinduism and which should we compare?

    I have recently come to an odd conclusion of my own, namely that there are only two traditions within either religion; the metaphysical, philosophical, naming and labeling traditions, who all disagree with each other, as one would expect. The second is the direct yogic, contemplative path, which cuts through intellectualism and has no need for metaphysics of any kind. The truth they find in deep samhadi cannot be different but there are many names for it.

    Take for example the Atman debate, or in Buddhism the existence versus non-existence debate. This can get quite heated but simply asserting one point of view or the other changes absolutely nothing. A person's lived experience is exactly the same, regardless of what he chooses to believe or not. Anger and desire still arise, nothing changes. Only the meditative path which finds the origin of these poisons can reduce them at all and lead to liberation.

    In one strand of Mahayana Buddhism, there are teachings on Maya, the illusory state of being. It is said that once one comprehends that the objects of the poisons don't exist from their own side, one is freed from desire etc. Whilst sounding plausible, the truth is that this does not happen. Nowadays, everybody knows that form is comprised of sub-atomic particles (or ultimately space or whatever) and things are a composite. This doesn't stop desire. If we can fall in love with a photograph of a beautiful lady, what hope is there when a real one enters the room?

    My point is that intellectualizing things as an illusion/empty of inherent existence is pointless. Buddha in the Pali rejected it too. Only seeing the process of mental contraction, self-grasping and habituated thought patters can lead to release. The intellect never can. This fault line runs through both religions, as it does through human nature and those who cannot imagine any result via meditation are obliged to argue beliefs and opinions and there is no end to this.

  3. #33

    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste devotee ji and Srivijaya ji,

    Firstly for me there is no misunderstanding withe the so called. Conflicts in the teachings, as I gradually mature that same insight just gets deeper and deeper, I never had it and have had so many issues in trying to say that the dharma traditions are one, not separate, although the narrative maybe diverse. Dharma is one, reality is one, we're all made of the same stuff both in the conditioned and unconditioned states. It's probably more simple than most think, not simple in basic but simple as in the essence.

    This is a bit of a flying visit. As srivijaya said there are two ways of approach, the external comparisons and the internal development, I also choose more to see how to develop and apply the latter. What's the use of any of this knowledge unless it brings direct experience and transformation, although the former has its place and as we mature the latter takes the vital role.

    There a few things that I have noticed about the apparent differences, let's say between dvaita traditions and advaita traditions, although they seem at opposite ends of the map the practicality of both teachings is in accordance with to whom they are teaching, traditions and words and teachings Vad of the acharyas are there only to bring balance and realign the dharma, but due to over literal understanding and sectarianism, plus the often purposeful corruption of the narrative they seem to conflict.

    Also srivija you talk about the misunderstanding of vipassana in the west, I would ask kindly to go back to your former statement and treat each individual one by one, but at the same time your not wrong, it does seem inherent with many that they want to jump to the top without building the foundations. This has a cause and if the cause of that type of thinking is known then an unbiased solution appears naturally.

    I'm also not saying there is anything inherently wrong in any of the traditions, weather it be karma khanda, bhakti or jnana yogas, but the problems come in the malpractice and understanding of their pure applications.

    I don't see vedanta as intellectual, but it has a tendancy to loose it's essence through over intectualism, karma kanda via doing business, and bhakti being prone to sentiment. So it's more about being aware of the pitfalls.

    Each system should highlight the sadhana's and methods by which we transcend ordinary thinking and mind.

    In Bhagavad gita krsna says once the mind is overcome paramatma is already reached, what external form of teaching does one need if the problem of mind is solved, none at all.

    Also in Gita krsna says yada yada hi dharmasya so when that alignment is lost its gets straightened out at some point.

    I maybe wrong, but dharma which was enveloped back into vedanta due to Buddhism on a large scale failing in the social structure but was never abandoned, as you point out sanatana dharma is one yet diverse in its margs.

    In the 4th level of jhana the dharma chakshu is opened, then by inherent consciousness one see's that same one reality in all things, and from this stage there is no return.

    There is nothing wrong with any of the teachings in their purity, the only problem is in the mind, so the teachings have to deal directly with the problem of mind, it's a simple as that, once mind is dealt with according to the sadhana's revealed by the great teachers then it's just automatic, no need for books, or external seeking.

    From personal experience I have lost count how many indians think buddha dharma is somehow inferior, not all but many and claim the superority of the puranas and vedanta, or Buddhism is a lower teaching, real knowledge is hidden and can only rediscovered again within our own being. I know all or at least most here are more broad and mature and have better ability to reflect and adjust, but it's not the same everywhere and that's both in east and the west.

    I've probably dedicated more time on the pure synthesis than anything else my whole time as a sadhaka from my late teens, and the amount of opposition I've met far outweighs the ones that agrees.

    Buddha sassana is supposed to last 5000 years, I see it coming back very strong into india, in what form I don't know, the dress and the traditions doesn't need to change, the conditions are gradually being laid down, often times unnoticed.

    It's a quick post and reply, and im using an old smart phone and the typing windown is small, so please overlook any errors, but this subject deserves personal study and contemplation. And that's comes by knowing the sadhana's and then applying them, weather one is vedantist or buddhist or any other branch of the dharma family.

    Id really highly reccomend a study and reflection and time to sink in the teachings of majjima nikaya.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 08 December 2017 at 08:26 PM.

  4. #34
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste Srivijaya and Markandeya,

    I would just add my two bits here. As I have already told in my previous post that intellectual discussion is not what real Advaita VedAnta is. Meditational Practices and Self-Realisation is inherent part of all Advaita schools as far as I know. The followers don't keep discussing intellectual things in Advaita Schools as it may appear from discussion on this forum. The emphasis there too is on meditation and attaining Samadhi where the Self-realisation occurs. The VedAntic Gurus don't discourage intellectual discussion on describing the Reality as it is avoided in Buddhism.

    What is inferior and what is superior ? Buddhism has been attacked in Hindu Dharma as it is considered NAstika school due to absence of God in the whole philosophy. However, when I see the Turiya ... where is God in Turiya ? God needs a relative perception from the position of "what is not-God" but in Turiya there is no other for this perception. This is my position but many Advaitic scholars may not agree with me and tend to call Turiya as God's NirAkAr aspect.

    On the other hand, Buddhists too discarded Advaita VedAntic scriptures and discourses based on them because Buddha didn't teach them that way. They feel that their path is superior as their path has given many countable Buddhas/enlightened followers and they feel that that number is much more than those of Advaita VedAntins.

    The problem is not in Buddhism and Advaita VedAnta. The problem is the feeling of "Mine" and "Not-mine". When I consider something as mine and something else as of "others", I tend to get biased when I compare. But is there really a need to compare ? Let's go back to business and instead of breaking our head on which path is superior and which path is inferior, follow the path we choose with all sincerity. Sit down in meditation and realise the Truth.

    If Truth is really there, how can it be more than One ??

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #35

    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste devotee ji,

    We're saying the same thing, and I am talking with you not at you or against you or anyone else or anything that is good and worthy, what's also included are comments in general for other readers to get across some important points to iron out the apparent differences and bring in perfect synthesis and union of the teachings.

    Turiya is spoken in Palli suttas in almost every sutta, buddha is not an individual being of a historical figure, it's the timeless transcedent awakened state beyond time and space. Supatipanno is turiya the blessed state, vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbati pabham, consciousness that is signless, boundless, all luminious. Tathaghatha, suchness, existing here and there undivided. And many others, so buddha dharma is not devoid of the same essence of vedanta.

    Buddha dharma is svakkhato, rightly expressed, beyond faults and spoken with purity.

    The key aim of the pali suttas is to turn ones attention to that ever existing pure awakened state buddham bhagavatam abhivademi. Bhagavan, he who posseses dvine qualities, attributes which is only attained with realization of turiya and brought forward to this world

    The teachings are

    Akalilko~timeless

    Ehipassaiko

    Encouraging insightful investigation

    Opanayiko~leading inwards

    Paccattam veditabbo vinnuhi~to be experienced by the wise.

    As we both agree on almost every point as I see it here there is no difference to what's spoken in sanatana dharma, yet while there is the claim that buddha was a Hindu his dharma is still rejected by many sects of hinduism, an as you quite rightly pointed out as a nastika teaching, which is unfounded within buddha dharma. We can blame the british which further emphasized an already existing problem which is manufactured by corrupt caste born brahmins, not real brahmins and this is not to look down upon pure family lineages, only to identify the corruption.

    Why does buddha dharma have issues with large parts of hinduism, due to being always ostracised, it's a reaction rather than an inherent mood of the Buddhist.

    In thailand there is an annual ceremony where the Buddhist and brahmins meet and the brahmins pass a higher responsibility to the bikkhus, and take a lower seat. This is if understood purely is when the bikkhus who were acknowledgde by pure brahmins were given the teachings for protection.

    There is no disagreement that adviata and all the sanatana traditions in their purity have the same message and goal, nothing good is being thrown out and there is absolutely no bias at all. It's about realignment to rediscover the unity, which in itself brings real power, divided we stand strong undivided we fall, division profits the few and the mean and the greedy, and leads to false pride and divisions not only in the teachings but to society itself, the teachings can never be seperate from society, it's the guiding force to give direction to that unity, helping one another, rediscovering the vast divine potentials in all of us, no one is or should never be excluded. In palli suttas schisms and the creation of divisions in the dharma is seen as the most heinous crime above even that of killing one own mother, why because it destroys at the very core our human existence and everything that is good and all evils arise from this only, and there is no sentiment about this and these people are thrown into the worst hell, beware false gurus and profits. Unity and synthesis of the dharma in pure essence reigns as the supreme knowledges and guiding force for us a humans which protects and elevates all beings, both internally and all sentient beings.

    I'm also not saying that Buddhism is not without its short comings and faults, I'm not putting one above the other.

    I find the term God as not applicable in any dharma traditions, it's part of an old concept that's so damaged it should be avoided and sanskrit and pali have much better ways to describe the whole and ultimate reality.

    With Metta ( brahma vihara)
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 09 December 2017 at 03:48 AM.

  6. #36
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    It's probably more simple than most think, not simple in basic but simple as in the essence.
    Namaste markandeya,
    Simple, as in the essence - very much so, as what else could it be? A very good point and one which is discovered experientially.

    There is nothing wrong with any of the teachings in their purity, the only problem is in the mind, so the teachings have to deal directly with the problem of mind, it's a simple as that, once mind is dealt with according to the sadhana's revealed by the great teachers then it's just automatic, no need for books, or external seeking.
    All the systems were established by enlightened masters and passed down, so at their core they contain a path to the truth. Then, as now though, it's the capacity of the individual followers which can cast a shadow across that light. I mean in a conventional sense.

    From personal experience I have lost count how many indians think buddha dharma is somehow inferior
    It cuts both ways. Among the 'real' Buddhists I know, there's an open-mindedness regarding other systems but on internet Buddhist boards, there certainly isn't. The internet seems to bring out the sectarian in many people.

    I've probably dedicated more time on the pure synthesis than anything else my whole time as a sadhaka from my late teens, and the amount of opposition I've met far outweighs the ones that agrees.
    I can imagine. It's a lonely path with very few friends.

    It's a quick post and reply, and im using an old smart phone and the typing windown is small, so please overlook any errors, but this subject deserves personal study and contemplation. And that's comes by knowing the sadhana's and then applying them, weather one is vedantist or buddhist or any other branch of the dharma family.
    Thank you for your reply. It's a miracle on an old smart phone. I'm hopeless at texting, never mind browsing.

    Id really highly reccomend a study and reflection and time to sink in the teachings of majjima nikaya.
    As a young man (many years ago) I entered the study of Dharma via Tibetan Buddhism. Many years later I studied and practiced the Theravadan system following the Suttas, especially the Anapanasati/Jhana teachings. In the mean time I've been greatly inspired by Dogen and Kashmiri Shaivism. Actually, the synthesis you mentioned has helped me steer a course away from extremes and scent the truth in all these teachings. I have found it enriching, although, like you I have found very little support for that approach.

  7. #37
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    The VedAntic Gurus don't discourage intellectual discussion on describing the Reality as it is avoided in Buddhism.
    Namaste devotee,
    Nalanda University was a hotbed of philosophical debate and development in the history of Buddhism. Scholars met and argued points and sects and schism were rife. Unfortunately, Buddhists are not spared any of this.

    However, when I see the Turiya ... where is God in Turiya ? God needs a relative perception from the position of "what is not-God" but in Turiya there is no other for this perception.
    Absolutely right! Love that assessment. This is very much the teaching in non-dual Shavism.

    On the other hand, Buddhists too discarded Advaita VedAntic scriptures and discourses based on them because Buddha didn't teach them that way. They feel that their path is superior as their path has given many countable Buddhas/enlightened followers and they feel that that number is much more than those of Advaita VedAntins.
    Most Buddhists consider their teachings superior due to what they perceive as 'clinging' to an inherently existing Atman or self, in Hinduism. They regard this as a hindrance to full enlightenment, as this can only occur when all clinging has been abandoned. Unfortunately, to really drive the point home, some Buddhists slip into annihilationist views, claiming there is no self etc. which Buddha never actually taught.

    If Truth is really there, how can it be more than One ??

    OM
    Yes, exactly.

  8. #38

    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste Srivija Ji,

    Thank you for all your comments and devotees, I see lots of good in this conversation. None of the statements I've made are not with any intention of over generalizing but rather to point out what's hindering us to unite and find the full power of the dharma traditions. In whatever way it's always a socially active movement to find truth, refuge and security for all beings.

    Your 100% right about buddhist going to extremes by denying the Self, even though the Buddha did deny Self it has to be seen in the right way, he denied veiws on the Self, and was only dealing with misunderstandings and protecting through right view, Self should not be seen as a concept, in fact all shastras and wise and enlightened teachings says it beyond any way we can comprehend with the ordinary faculties, so why the obession to bring it into inteelctual and philosophical feilds, it should be spoken about only through sadhana, and love and unified consciousness, looks what's happening in neo advaita, so the subject in the upanishads should be dealt with cautiously. I've had just as many issues with Buddhist on this point, and it comes from over literal reading and adversity from pervious monotheistic backgrounds, where an alternative is found.

    Buddhism is universal and accepts all people from different backgrounds and sadly a lot of Atheists are running show when it comes to Internet forums using buddha dharma as a disguise to vent there inability and bias.

    To sum it up, there is huge importance to synthesis the teaching of Self and non self to find that balance madyamika.

    If it can't be found out there then there is only one place to left to look.

    That though requires skill and true cultering of the mind and for this society needs balanced teachers and guides.

    I'm more positive than negative. I'm socially active and dedicate all my time and efforts for change both within and without.


    Back on topic

    What's the cause for rebirth

    Greed, hatred and delusion

    Jai guru datta
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 09 December 2017 at 06:35 AM.

  9. #39
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste Markandeya,

    You took my posts wrongly. I was just a participant in the discussion and I never thought that you were against me or my posts. We are all writing here what we think is correct. I am interested in anything which is based on direct perception and non-duality. So, not only Buddhism but I studied Sufism also. I also studied Kashmir Shaivism of Abhinav Gupta due to this alone.

    Actually, I always held that Reality cannot be different and whatever path we choose we must reach the same destination if these paths are going towards Reality. The differences in paths leading to "non-duality" through direct perception are nothing as compared to differences in various paths to "devotion to God".

    Yes, there are differences in Buddhism, Advaita VedAnta, Kashmir Shaivism and Sufism ... but as long as they lead to the same destination, I don't mind the differences on the surface.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #40

    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste Devotee Ji,

    I didn't misunderstand you, I was just trying to make sure that I was not misunderstood.

    A few weeks ago I visited one centre that holds spiritual events with some hare krsna devotees that do a bhajan and Kirtan night, and while there I saw some people who looked Malay ( from Malaysia) I lived in that part of the world and India for 17 years, so I broke the ice with them and they were from Indonesia. They were holding a sufi meeting from Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi order, brought to the UK by Sultan ul-Awliya Mawlana Shaikh Nazim al-Haqqani ar-Rabbani.

    So I decided to join them for the night ( much to the dismay of some hare krsna devotees)


    Description: We meet to practice Dhikr (Remembrance of God) with the permission of Sheikh Mehmet Adil al-Haqqani, the 41st GrandSheikh in the Golden Chain of the Most Distinguished Naqshbandi Sufi Tariqat. We recite the Khatm ul-Khwajagan (The Litany of The Masters) with the intention of purifying our souls, training our egos, and overcoming our attachment to worldly distractions.

    They were very warm and welcoming. We chanted and in the second part of the chant they chant seven times in repetition each Arabic syllable, I can't remember off hand what they were, it's the same as the bhija mantras in kundalini yoga. After to the beat of a drum we chanted sufi songs. It's a different line to Rumi.

    I went again last night on my own without any pressure of others views. I'm learning more, whatever they say fits right in. It's another example that knowledge is one, there are no differences, only apparent and the narrative and language gives that impression. Same as vedanta, Buddha dharma and puranas.

    He told me something interesting, that the seventh chant is not given easy, and their guru will not give due to society needs more people serving and spreading humane values of peace, unity and love towards one another.

    I will go again. I established in the two visits a quick and deep friendship. One man was there who was persia, he asked if I was a Hindu because I told him of my association with Indian studies and practices, I said no, because lables often causes unnecessary divisions and tonight I am sufi, I always speak with a smile , he then said that originally Persians and Indians were one people.

    Just recently I have noticed some Hindus attacking sufism due to the wars in the west. I fear always of these types of tensions and further divide where it's always the innocent people who pay the price on both sides.

    There is enough information now to sort out the real truth from forced corrupted truth and to stop some of the madness and continuation of people looking for the differences, it's complex but at the same time the solution is extremely simpleN often so simple it's overlooked due to crookedness.

    It's great to learn from everyone and everything and always be open. Deep sadhana is private and in these times were alone and nowhere to hide, and in those moments is where we find the whole.

    On a personal note I found Buddhism first but came across Bhagavad gita, and since then I studied and practiced both simultaneously which has helped immensely to get a partial grasp on vedanta. Without the pali tradition I would never have understood vedanta and also now visa versa, and I see absolutely no difference at all, although it's hard and maybe to time consuming to explain why I can see that and always best advice is to develop samadhi according to sri guru and shastra, everything fits into place, even iskcon, the good side of it, not the crooked side.

    Sat sri akala

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