Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

[srivijaya]

... he denied veiws on the Self, and was only dealing with misunderstandings and protecting through right view, Self should not be seen as a concept

Namaste markandeya,
This is absolutely the case but for some people, there is misunderstanding between cessation of views on self and claiming that there is no self, but like you say...

...it comes from over literal reading and adversity from pervious monotheistic backgrounds, where an alternative is found... sadly a lot of Atheists are running show when it comes to Internet forums using buddha dharma as a disguise to vent there inability and bias.

So, I agree that...

If it can't be found out there then there is only one place to left to look.

I'm socially active and dedicate all my time and efforts for change both within and without.

This is good for a balanced approach.

[srivijaya]

Yes, there are differences in Buddhism, Advaita VedAnta, Kashmir Shaivism and Sufism ... but as long as they lead to the same destination, I don't mind the differences on the surface.

Many paths may lead to the summit of a mountain, as the saying goes.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste srivijaya ji,

The teaching on annata is simple but at the same time complex or deep. I'll try my best to shed a bit of light on this. Firstly Theravada is not intellectual it's to perceive reality as we experience it, and our experiences vary so the teachings vary based on the levels of experience, vedanta holds strong the meditation practice of neti neti, not this not this until all that is false is abandoned until nothing else is left but the True Self which is nirguna beyond all known qualities.

Siddharta's way was to teach enlightenment through the jhanas, as that was his final ascension before his great awakening and became Buddha ( awake) and at the same time saw dependant arising. I'm sure you know this but let's go along with it for sake of explanation.

The first marg is samma dhitti, or right view, dhitti. Dhitti Pali is dristi in sanskrit, it's a conscious faculity related to vision, cognitive viewing and is within all levels of conditioned being, even within the higher jhanas.

From vedanta I have learned that Self is adristya ( forgive any spelling mistakes) because Self needs no faculty to see itself, it's all contained within its own being, Self luminious and relies on no supports, fully complete and whole Om purnam.

Within the 9 jhanas there is still dhitti or view, and with each jhana new areas of knowledges are seen and experienced. Within each jhana stage Buddha guides them to understand each level and also the cause and technique to not get stuck, just know enough and then move on.

So in this regard the teachings can't be taken as literal as each teaching varies according to the mental state and view dhiitti until the final stage of awakening there is the rejection of clinging or grasping to any of these states of mental absorption as Self.

If the teachings which are more often than not taken as literal then the natural conclusion is that Buddha denied all forms and teachings on the Self. When in fact it was his upaya often taught to advanced yogis, ascetics, brahmins and devas sariputta and moggallana were two of the Buddha's main disciples, they both came from high Brahmin families, well versed in all the vedas, but chose the pure path of renunciation. Sariputta had photographic memory and was his main disciple to maintain the purity of the dhamma, but his main problem was literal understanding, he also was in charge of the sangha and the gatekeeper of the vinaya and the main proponent of the monastic tradition and training. Quite often he didn't fully understand theteachings but he was a pure vessel, he ultimately attain arahatship and became fully enlightened.

Mogallana was a mystic and he had advanced siddhi powers, and Buddha taught him differently, and only used his siddhi powers to establish the dharma. Ultimately moggallan had to abondon all these siddhis to attain the awakened state as they also were part of the annata. By careful study the Buddha was full of all powers and tathagatha, the deeper the pali goes the more astounding are the supramundane transcendant qualties of tathagata are revealed. The pali tradition may start off simple but they get very interesting and more and more profound the deeper one gets to know both The buddha and his disciples. To fully underatand one needs to develop the jhanas, without this the Buddha's teachings will seem pretty basic, this is the acid test and also the supreme protection of his real teachings, which is hidden from ordinary intellect. The closer one gets to the Buddha the more luminous he becomes Same as Self.

There is a deep intellectual side to Theravada and that is the abhidamma. It's just as complex in its details as any vedantic literature, in fact most the knwoeldges on the mind within abidhamma is included with the understanding of mind within the teachings within advaita vedanata.

Upanishads deal more directly with pratyaksha or direct perception on brahman the Self the ultimate reality, Buddha dharma deals in minute detail right upto the 9 level of jhana the process of the conditioned state leading to awakening, this as I see it is the main difference in the teaching. Mind is not given as much detail as the abhidhama, there are also quite a few bikkhus who don't accept abhidhamma as they say the buddha didn't spend so much time on the minute details on dependant arises as is covered in abhidhamma.

In Bhagavad gita the essence of the upanishads sri krsna very first instruction was atma tattva or pointing him directly to the Self.


Siddharta tried this in his very first teaching to a wandering sadhu, but it didn't work, so he became upset and brahma sahampatti visited him and told him to go and teach to those that had only a few particles of dust in his eyes, so then he changed his style of teaching and taught the gradual path the 4 noble truths which lack nothing.

I will try to tidy the post up later, as I'm out of time, and it's only a quick and basic overview and who knows srijaya ji, we may even meet one day as your in the UK and more details and some really cool and profound stuff may come into conversation, but this things can't be planned. I'm always popping up here and there rounda few buddhist places but usually stay outside on the boarders in more secluded places, I'm sure we would have an interesting conversation.

Harih Om

[srivijaya]

Mogallana was a mystic and he had advanced siddhi powers,

Namaste markandeya,
I've always had a soft spot for Mogallana. If I could sit down and share a cup of tea with one of Buddha's followers, then it would be him.

who knows srijaya ji, we may even meet one day as your in the UK and more details and some really cool and profound stuff may come into conversation, but this things can't be planned. I'm always popping up here and there rounda few buddhist places but usually stay outside on the boarders in more secluded places, I'm sure we would have an interesting conversation.

I'm sure we would have a great conversation. I'm only part of a small informal Buddhist group nowadays and I get more from practicing alone than delving into the handful of groups which are within my geographical range, though I visit them from time to time to keep contact. My problem is, I don't quite 'fit' with any of them. They have their rules and rituals which they follow 'religiously' but there seems to be little said about actual training in meditation.

I can live with that if there is some sadhana on a particular Yidam I feel close to, or if they are relaxed, but some have suggested to me that I would have to adopt their style of meditation, or guru etc. and that's impossible, so I drift on and find myself thrown back on my own resources, which turns out mostly to be what I need to do in any case. What we are looking for is internal (the dharmakaya/Brahman etc.) but we seek it in the outer world by habit. It's the same when I try to share what I have experienced. Few care to hear - it seems there's no way I can repay the debt I owe for what the dharma has given me - and what little I have is perhaps insufficient.

Sometimes I fancy that it's rather like being in a dream populated by imagined people. I suspect that they are all, in truth, fully enlightened and I am the last idiot in samsara. They're just waiting for me to work that out and then they can turn off the lights and go home.

[Indialover]

Namaste Srivijaya, you speak from my heart. First of all - let me be your idiot-companion in Samsara!

They have their rules and rituals which they follow 'religiously' but there seems to be little said about actual training in meditation.
… some have suggested to me that I would have to adopt their style of meditation, or guru etc.

That’s exactly what I experienced too and that’s why I visit groups as a guest and leave as soon as socializing starts. Groups only want to convince of their point of view, but they are never interested in other's views. It’s always a one way street.

I read Osho again and again, and became able to go my own way, listen to my inner guru only. Osho says: ‚Become free from any conditioning. Socienty, parents, school, work, friends, religion and many more tell you from birth on how to be. Break out!‘

Nowadays (so called) spiritual groups sproud like mushrooms and try in addition to condition us. To be spiritual means to be open-minded. Until now I found only narrow-minded spiritual groups.

Pranam

[srivijaya]

Namaste Srivijaya, you speak from my heart. First of all - let me be your idiot-companion in Samsara!

They have their rules and rituals which they follow 'religiously' but there seems to be little said about actual training in meditation.
… some have suggested to me that I would have to adopt their style of meditation, or guru etc.

That’s exactly what I experienced too and that’s why I visit groups as a guest and leave as soon as socializing starts. Groups only want to convince of their point of view, but they are never interested in other's views. It’s always a one way street.

I read Osho again and again, and became able to go my own way, listen to my inner guru only. Osho says: ‚Become free from any conditioning. Socienty, parents, school, work, friends, religion and many more tell you from birth on how to be. Break out!‘

Nowadays (so called) spiritual groups sproud like mushrooms and try in addition to condition us. To be spiritual means to be open-minded. Until now I found only narrow-minded spiritual groups.

Pranam

Namaste Indialover,
Reassuring to discover others have a similar experience.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste,

Let's also look on the positive side of some groups. The west is yet to find the traditional side and the synthesis with society.

It's still in early days and perhaps the real benefit is generations down the line.

When Buddhism was taken to Tibet by Indian dharma scholars and realized saints it took 500 years before Tibet produced their own fully realized yogi, milarepa ( my avatar on HDF)

Also some people need it, it provides refuge for some people and without these places where would people go.

Within centres there are good and bad people, and sometimes it just becomes a matter of being tolerant. Society is better off with these places.

That's not to say that a lot of things are not right. In fact to many to list, I've had my fair share of bad experiences where thinking is not allowed, and there is pressure to be like them and more emphasis to follow their way rather than guide one into a higher transcedent states.

I could tell many stories and by stories we learn the most.

Now I also just take what I want, try to be a like a bee hat just takes the nectar and pollen without damaging the flower. There are always good people around in most the established centres, if the main core of the place is built around a good source even if it's not perfectly practised then there will be a natural growth. I've seen many people transform over the years and become better people, some have stayed the same and some even get worse, what a mixed bag life is.

Srivijay, your understand of the path is good when we spoke about Theravada, the Thai forest schools in the UK are to a very good standard, the best I have seen, I'm not sure if you have visited them. It's not perfect but where is and who is. They also teach good simple meditations or practical ways to deal with life and the mind.

I've found in the west the best thing that is of benefit is retreats and it's good to choose a teacher your respect.

I go to samye ling from to time, there is a huge gap in cultural synthesis between tibetans and the west on the deepest level, and Tibetan Buddhism is complex deep and diverse and often crippled by its own means of philosophical reasoning.

Many of the practices are very esoteric. Tibetans are in a real fight just to exist and maintain not only there tradition but their whole race.

Lam rim is very good, people speak of dzogchen, but let's be realistic. I have found some people around the tibetan buddhist scene very nice and warm people.

I was recently at Samye ling, I like to sit in the mahakal puja, I understand absolutely no tibetan but the vibration is good.

On my last visit I was in the temple and their was a rinponche sitting alone in silent meditation, I joined him at a respectful distance and he certainly had a great presence, if anyone else would have came in it would have been destroyed. If I wouldn't have gone there I wouldn't have had that experience, so it's good to keep in touch and keep it a level that ones comfortable with.

[srivijaya]

Now I also just take what I want, try to be a like a bee hat just takes the nectar and pollen without damaging the flower. There are always good people around in most the established centres, if the main core of the place is built around a good source even if it's not perfectly practised then there will be a natural growth. I've seen many people transform over the years and become better people, some have stayed the same and some even get worse, what a mixed bag life is.

Namaste markandeya,
Good approach. Yes, there are plenty of good people out there too. My personal opportunity to travel to more distant centers is limited at the moment, and the only significant center in my area belongs to the NKT, which I shall avoid discussing. The rest are all many hour's drive, but perhaps someday in the future...

I go to samye ling from to time, there is a huge gap in cultural synthesis between tibetans and the west on the deepest level, and Tibetan Buddhism is complex deep and diverse and often crippled by its own means of philosophical reasoning.

Many of the practices are very esoteric. Tibetans are in a real fight just to exist and maintain not only there tradition but their whole race.

Their fate is tragic.

I was recently at Samye ling, I like to sit in the mahakal puja, I understand absolutely no tibetan but the vibration is good.

On my last visit I was in the temple and their was a rinponche sitting alone in silent meditation, I joined him at a respectful distance and he certainly had a great presence, if anyone else would have came in it would have been destroyed. If I wouldn't have gone there I wouldn't have had that experience, so it's good to keep in touch and keep it a level that ones comfortable with.

Sounds amazing. I've had experiences like this myself and I'll never forget them.

[EternalHindu]

The cause and effect of rebirth

The material of the body merges with earth. The law of indestructibility of matter, the law of conservation of energy says it will not disappear altogether. The same law should be applied to the subtle body as well that comprises his thought, feeling and desire. You would realise that its energy cannot vanish into nothing at the time of death.
Life is a series of experiences. The progression of life is determined by desires that drive you from one experience to another. In philosophic terms, an experience is dead and another is born, every moment.