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Thread: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

  1. #11
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Hi all,

    @Srivijaya, I'm seeing an interesting conversation between yourself and Yajvan ji and Indialover. I'm following the replies from the learned.

    I just realized I need to add the source for my reply in post #2 of this thread.

    It is from 'Vinayagar Agaval', written by Saivite saint Auvaiyar containing profound meaning on what causes rebirth and what one should do to transcend it.

    You can find it in this link.

    Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  2. #12
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    This accords with the observation of the Buddha......
    As a layman, I have one observation and that is that most people forget that Buddha's awakening did not happen in a vacuum or in a flash. He wandered for 10-12 years gathering scriptural spiritual knowledge from Hindu sages of the time. He practiced various meditation techniques in an effort to cleanse himself and be worthy of the divine knowledge. He climbed the spiritual ladder incrementally till he reached the step where all the accumulated knowledge crystallized with a vision from within. Everything he said had a source, a spark, a well founded thought pattern and all that came from his training/his penance while learning the nuances of Hinduism. So, his observations were rooted in Hinduism; his vision being an amalgamation of all that he understood and discarding what he considered to be a frivolity/hindrance to spiritual evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indialover View Post

    We can make a brain train out of everything.
    That happens more often than we realize. Thank you for pointing that out.

    Pranam.

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Hi all,

    @Srivijaya, I'm seeing an interesting conversation between yourself and Yajvan ji and Indialover. I'm following the replies from the learned.

    I just realized I need to add the source for my reply in post #2 of this thread.

    It is from 'Vinayagar Agaval', written by Saivite saint Auvaiyar containing profound meaning on what causes rebirth and what one should do to transcend it.

    You can find it in this link.

    Thanks.
    Namaste Viraja,
    Thank you for the link and also your replies.

    I think the answer I was seeking appears to be 'the five senses', as this is a consistent theme.

  4. #14
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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    Namaste Viraja,
    Thank you for your considered and very informative reply, it has given me much to consider. I guess the sense organs themselves are not inherently contaminated, rather the witnessing consciousness is not processing the impressions in accordance with the truth. A saint and a normal person sees the same things but the subjective effect would be very different.

    I have looked a little into Advaita and Spanda, which teach a great deal about the ultimate goal, so I was never sure I understood the opposite end; ie; the bound state and its cause. The terminology around this aspect is very different from that taught within Buddhism, so offers another perspective on the 'human condition' in its basic state.

    I was never sure how much 'divine will' played a part in bondage. Insomuch as I have heard that the divine hid him/herself within creation in order to forget where he/she had hidden herself; a divine game of hide and seek. This would imply a willingness of the Atman to abide in delusion before coming to insight, but perhaps this is hearsay, or just one presentation among many?

    Srivijaya,

    I have considered your above question.

    I have few *assumptions* on the questions you have raised. Kindly note, I am sharing my assumptions on the note that some learned member might have an accurate answer that he/she might be able to share with us on this!

    * Chit (intelligent/conscious matter) and Achit (non-matter) together exist in the Brahman.
    * Similarly, sattwa/rajas and tamas permeate the qualities of 'chit' (conscious matter) residing in the Brahman.
    * Brahman is on the need for creation and plays leela for creating souls.
    * The 'mood' that Brahman is in, while creating souls, namely, sattwa/rajas/tamas, determines the nature and the karma of the bound soul newly created.
    * The above carries the notion that 'Maya' or 'Mahamaya' always acts on a par with the Brahman and it is this Maya shakti or the delusional force that differentiates the 'chit' into the 3 categories named above - sattwa, rajas and tamas.

    I hope someone clarifies!

    Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Hello,

    To whomever this may be of interest -- --

    Today in my facebook page, someone quoted Svetasvatara upanishad chapter 1, sloka 4 to describe how the 'Brahman' is represented by the sastras.

    Over the course of explaining the sloka, she writes, "Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas are the 3 gunas (characteristic traits) that are found to exist separately in the Brahman. However, when they interact together, srishti (creation) happens. They combine together to create mahat-budhdhi (creative intellect). From mahat-budhdhi is created, mahat-ahamkara (creative ego). From creative-ego arises the Sattwic ahamkara, Rajasic ahamkara and Tamasic ahamkara. From Sattwic ahamkara, rises individual consciousness and life, from the Rajasic ahamkara, arises the panchabhutas (5 ethereal forces) and from Tamasic ahamkara, arises all non-conscious-matter.".

    The above seems of interest to me, since it describes how creation happens. We need to find out, how life forms with different karmas and bonded states happen, *starting at* sattwic-ahamkara, the mother of individual intellect.

    May be Svetasvara upanishad itself will hold further answers?

    Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  6. #16

    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste virat ji,

    In 1.6 the answer is given in twofold way. When one identifies themself with the body they think they are the controller. And revolves in brahma chakra, I'm also familiar with the bhavana chakra or the wheel of becoming. And when one adores the real Self then one attains immortality.

    This is a overview. The language used in this passage of svetasvatara upanishad is quite obscure, lucid and deep. When one identifies as the body which are not the Self it revolves and wanders through many states, as devas, man( humans) and animal realms.

    The reason for the wanderings is given as matva considering, atmanam itself, preritAram and prthak different.

    When one considers oneself as the controller and as a seperate being or I am seperate it wanders in the world.

    How is it liberated? Justah adored, tena identified with the non dual brahman that is by nature sat, cit, ananda.

    So in this passage or collection of slokas 1.4 to one 1.6 reveals both the essences of the non self as individual controller as separate being and the adoration of Self as causes of bondage and liberation.

    The perception of duality is the cause of transmigration or rebirth that happens at each given moment, not just changes of physical body.

    I'm not really qualified to talk on the upanishads but these slokas are very interesting and in-depth and requires better explanation than I can conjure.

    I only posted because I aquired just recently a copy of svetasvatara upanishad on loan from a place I visit from time to time.

    Pranam.

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Namaste virat ji,

    In 1.6 the answer is given in twofold way. When one identifies themself with the body they think they are the controller. And revolves in brahma chakra, I'm also familiar with the bhavana chakra or the wheel of becoming. And when one adores the real Self then one attains immortality.

    This is a overview. The language used in this passage of svetasvatara upanishad is quite obscure, lucid and deep. When one identifies as the body which are not the Self it revolves and wanders through many states, as devas, man( humans) and animal realms.

    The reason for the wanderings is given as matva considering, atmanam itself, preritAram and prthak different.

    When one considers oneself as the controller and as a seperate being or I am seperate it wanders in the world.

    How is it liberated? Justah adored, tena identified with the non dual brahman that is by nature sat, cit, ananda.

    So in this passage or collection of slokas 1.4 to one 1.6 reveals both the essences of the non self as individual controller as separate being and the adoration of Self as causes of bondage and liberation.

    The perception of duality is the cause of transmigration or rebirth that happens at each given moment, not just changes of physical body.

    I'm not really qualified to talk on the upanishads but these slokas are very interesting and in-depth and requires better explanation than I can conjure.

    I only posted because I aquired just recently a copy of svetasvatara upanishad on loan from a place I visit from time to time.

    Pranam.
    Hello MD ji,

    Yes, I do understand that identification with the body or the karmendriyas having a sway on the budhdhi (intellect) and manas (mind) results in people accruing karma and thus results in bondage.

    But I am interested in knowing "the original cause". When a new soul gets created, what makes it bonded into karma and how do karmas get assigned to it? I believe this is part of SriVijaya's question too, not sure...

    Thanks for your illuminating explanation from Svetasvatara...

    Regards,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  8. #18

    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Namaste Viraja ji, 

     It's an age old question and one that has baffled even the greatest thinkers and seekers.

     I have had my own personal questions to this, why are we born, why live only to die, why do we love only for everything to get taken away from us, why are saints killed and not taken notice of, why does ignorance which makes no sense have to exist, why is there suffering when on a larger scale is pointless and everything ends up has having no meaning at all.

     There are many explanations, shastra describes the process of creation or becoming and in each dharma tradition the narrative is expressed in its own way, but the reality is one. ‎

     The conclusion and also seems to align to this is that ordinary intellect can't grasp the full reality. In gita the continuum of life and rebirth is perfectly explained and also how to transcend and be free from rebirth, the path of vidya and avidya is given and one needs to know both side by side, as backed up in sri isopanishad. In kashmir shavism it's spanda or a vibration, in all traditions it is tanha, craving trsna in sanskrit.

    What all the dharma traditions always align to ultimately is that we only really know when one is fully awake, Self realized, then and only then is everything illuminated, vedas and associated aligned traditions is descending into the human psyche, our psyche is ascending to the meeting point union of the individual and the whole, at that meeting point all is revealed.

     In buddha dharma and pali suttas Siddharta put aside the constant questioning with limited intellect and said that to approach it in this way will only lead to vexation  , confusion and unrestful state of being. So the path was outlined, the cause of becoming is greed, hatred and ignorance so deal with these according to dharma ways and purify the mind and all is revealed. So the path is more important in many ways than the end goal which reveals itself of its own accord when the conditions of the mind is ripened.

     I submitted to this view, cultivate the mind and consciousness as skillfully as possible, then anugraha of ishwara from the centre of consciousness will reveal all. All theories, revelations will be incomplete if our quality of consciousness is incomplete, so we're left with no choice other than dharma marg and the guiding knowledges along the way to reach union and enlightenment.  

     Suffering and becoming has a cause, which one needs to know well, and liberation has a cause which we need to know well.

    There is much to say about, but the centre of perfections or paramis is the destruction of the kleshas, which by no means is easy. Life has dukkha, it has pain but there is cause to this and a cause out of it and a causeless cause anugraha which is beyond our limited ability to understand. 

    I'm not directing this as though I know anything, just sharing what I have learned, usually via the hard way and failure as my greatest teacher on this so important question. ‎

     With Metta‎

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    Namaste all,
    As a person with a Buddhist background, I have studied those teachings on the cause for rebirth in samsara.

    But I'm interested how Hindus present the cause for rebirth. Is the state of bondage due to ignorance, or other factors? And if so, ignorance of what? Are there differing views on this within Hinduism?

    I guess this leads, by implication, to teachings on what constitutes the Pashu and the path to moksha.

    Thank you.
    My understanding is that unfulfilled desires cause us to come back and be reborn. This includes the desire for moksha, which when attained in a particular birth enables us to be free of desires and the associated illness of lust, greed etc.. Other type of desires (wealth, fame, pleasure, revenge…) gives you a learning experience that there is nothing in them and the only desire that matters is the one for liberation from the cycle of death and birth. For those unwilling to learn, the cycle perpetuates.

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    Re: Cause for Rebirth - A Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Srivijaya,

    I have considered your above question.

    I have few *assumptions* on the questions you have raised. Kindly note, I am sharing my assumptions on the note that some learned member might have an accurate answer that he/she might be able to share with us on this!

    * Chit (intelligent/conscious matter) and Achit (non-matter) together exist in the Brahman.
    * Similarly, sattwa/rajas and tamas permeate the qualities of 'chit' (conscious matter) residing in the Brahman.
    * Brahman is on the need for creation and plays leela for creating souls.
    * The 'mood' that Brahman is in, while creating souls, namely, sattwa/rajas/tamas, determines the nature and the karma of the bound soul newly created.
    * The above carries the notion that 'Maya' or 'Mahamaya' always acts on a par with the Brahman and it is this Maya shakti or the delusional force that differentiates the 'chit' into the 3 categories named above - sattwa, rajas and tamas.

    I hope someone clarifies!

    Thanks.
    Thanks Viraja,
    This thread was quiet for a while but I'm glad I checked back. This list notes Brahman as the cause for the existence of the Atman, depicted as actively creating a soul. This is similar to the Christian idea of a creator god, as a prime cause.

    In other presentations, I've seen it claimed that Atman arises from Brahman, rather than being created. But if Brahman does create Atman, then I'm not sure how rebirth works. Are some souls just more ancient than others? And other newly created?

    Thank you.

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