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Thread: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

  1. #11

    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    continuing...

    [Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-12]

    mahā-bhūtāni pañcaiva
     bhūr āpo ’gnir marun nabhaḥ
    tan-mātrāṇi ca tāvanti
     gandhādīni matāni me


    Sri Paramathma says....the five maha bhuta...now this something that most of the people know...but whats more important here will the way things work here...

    the five major elements...please note the term "Maha"...it very clearly indicates that these are the principle elements and many further elements can be derived from them...hence the term Maha..to separate them from the sub elements we see everywhere

    - Bhuh
    - Aapah
    - Agnih
    - Marut
    - Nabhah

    Bhuh here indicates the earth which itself is an entity which is further made up of millions of other smaller elements...so all of that put together..whatever constitutes to form this planet is collectively called the first major bhuta

    Aapah here indicates "water"...its one of the major elements again which is in principle different from the element earth...

    Agnih here indicates the fire...

    Marut here indicates air

    Nabhah is a term which is quite ambiguous...many say Nabhah is space...some even say its "ether"...some say its the atmosphere...it mainly depends on the context in which it is used...for now lets not worry what is correct definition as we will come across these elements later when we discuss their origin...

    now comes the even more interesting part which is the term "matra"..this is a very important term as this in principle is the "fundamental information packet" which contains the value present in the maha bhuta...every bhuta has a matra and this matra is the "information packet"

    - smell
    - taste
    - color
    - touch
    - sound

    we will get back to these matras when we discuss the indriyas next
    Last edited by SanathanaDharma; 09 March 2018 at 11:59 PM.

  2. #12

    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    continuing...

    [Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-13]

    indriyāṇi daśa śrotraṁ
     tvag dṛg rasana-nāsikāḥ
    vāk karau caraṇau meḍhraṁ
     pāyur daśama ucyate


    Sri Maha Vishnu says...there are 10 indriyas......the indriyas or the organs are enumerated as 10...now Sri Vaasudeva in Bhagavad Gita classifies these 10 indriyas [he includes a 11th one too..but we will get to it later] into two sections...
    - gochara indriya
    - kriya indriya

    gochara is a term which very roughly translates as sensing...but lets put it in a better way..its an entity that perceives or grasps the matra from a maha bhuta...so the 5 gochara indriyas sense or perceive or grasp the information packets called matra which are originated from a maha bhuta...they are
    - shrotra : the sense of hearing
    - tvak : the sense of touch
    - drk : the sense of sight
    - rasana : the sense of taste
    - naasikah : the sense of smell

    this enumeration is extremely important because for anyone who has decided to take up the path to Moksha, controlling these gochara indriyas is the very first step...
    please note very carefully...we still are enumerating the components of Pradhana and have not come to a point to discuss how they will be active inside prakruthi

    the second set which is also known as kriya indriya..meaning the organs which performs action...
    - vaak : organ of speech
    - karau: hands
    - charanau : legs
    - medhram : generative organ
    - paayur : excretory organs

    these five kriya indriyas, five gochara indriyas and the five maha bhuta along with five related matras form the 20 elelemts...the final four are the most powerful amongst the 24 and we get to them next...

  3. #13
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    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté s
    anathanadharma & kallol

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post

    Time + Pradhana = Prakruthi. Time is connected to creation. In between creations Pradhana remain inactive, just as in seeds.
    Without going too far from the essential questions being discussed in this string let me pose the following:

    If time is an ~ element~ ( as suggested in 'time + pradhana' formula above ), an essential part, therefore a tattva (or that-ness) can you offer where this time is called out in the saṃkhya school of thought or perhaps in the trika school ( also known as kaśmir śaivism some call trika śāstra).
    In the
    saṃkhya school 24 to 25 tattva's are recognized ; in the trika śāstra 36 tattva’s ( with 2 to 3 more also recognized) are called out.

    I am not taking issue with any conversation here... yet this time is quite important. Even kṛṣṇaḥ-jī informs us in the bhāgavadgītā 2
    kālo'smi lokakṣayakṛtpravṛddho lokānsamāhartumiha pravṛttaḥ|
    ṛte'pi tvāṃ na bhaviṣyanti sarve ye'vasthitāḥ pratyanīkeṣu yodhāḥ || 11.32

    I am time (kālo'smi) ...
    Yet to understand this, we must consider time as kāla
    or destroying all things , death. Within this same verse kṛṣṇaḥ-jī continues and says I am the destroyer of worlds (lokakṣaya - dwelling place + world). Hence 'I am death, the destroyer of all things' seems a reasonable translation to consider.

    back to time1
    When it comes to time , whose time are we looking at? On earth we think of a day as one rotation of the earth. Yet this does not hold the same value for a rotation on Jupiter or Venus. We think of one year as one trip around the sun ( 365 days); yet think of one rotation (one year) of our galaxy . That would be one year for the galaxy , no? But in earth years that would take 230 million years. The point is were is the final unit of time that is universal ( without getting into planck time3 ) ?

    So, yajvan what is your point?

    Time is our (human-made) measure to meter out or measure eternity . That is the true time , ananta ( endless) without break or pause; it is śeṣa or vāsuki. And, this now makes sense that
    viṣṇu ( meaning all pervading) rests on ananta ( endless) eternity.




    शिवःकरोतिसर्वम्
    śivaḥkarotisarvam


    1. time can be kāla (to calculate or enumerate i.e. time) or velā (limit of time , period , season , time of day)

    2. verse 11.32
    कालोऽस्मि लोकक्षयकृत्प्रवृद्धो लोकान्समाहर्तुमिह प्रवृत्तः।
    ऋतेऽपि त्वां न भविष्यन्ति सर्वे येऽवस्थिताः प्रत्यनीकेषु योधाः।।11.32।।

    3. planck time - Planck unit is the time required for light to travel in a vacuum a distance of 1 planck length; again a human construct ( brilliant to say the least!)
    Last edited by yajvan; 11 March 2018 at 01:07 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14

    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    Namaste Yajvan,

    thanks for stirring the most important topic "Time", which even the greatest sages find quite difficult to comprehend....

    "If time is an ~ element~ ( as suggested in 'time + pradhana' formula above ) "

    This understanding needs further clarification as it has caused ambiguity...Time is a very tricky term...because our fundamental state of existence is inherently always bound by Time, its quite difficult to imagine something that exists without it...the terms beginning-less and end-less are extremely difficult for our intellect to understand...we need a lot of axioms, corollaries, reverse engineering mechanisms and what not to even get a basic understanding of Time...

    However, to answer your specific question " can you offer where this time is called out in the saṃkhya school of thought"

    [Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-15]
    etāvān eva saṅkhyāto
     brahmaṇaḥ sa-guṇasya ha
    sanniveśo mayā prokto
     yaḥ kālaḥ pañca-viṁśakaḥ


    I was about to come to this verse soon, but then we will touch it here to answer your question... lets see the last line...
    Sri Kapila Maharshi, the founder of Sankhya, very clearly states that "Kaalah is the 25th, along with others[24]...[please note that the detailed discussion on this verse will be done later]. So its very clearly stated that the 25th one is Kaala...with that sorted to a basic level,

    lets find the answer to your second question "When it comes to time , whose time are we looking at?" lets analyse a few fundamentally important terms here
    Can you please throw light on your understanding of these terms so that we can discuss further...

    - Time
    - Measurement of Time
    - Experiencing Time
    - Viewing Time

    Also, a humble request ... branching out on Time will take us far far away and for anyone who is interested in gaining knowledge about Paramathma, this is a topic that can be discussed forever ..so can we please have a different thread for that, if its not there already..

  5. #15
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    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté s
    anathanadharma

    Quote Originally Posted by SanathanaDharma View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,

    "If time is an ~ element~ ( as suggested in 'time + pradhana' formula above ) "

    This understanding needs further clarification as it has caused ambiguity...Time is a very tricky term...because our fundamental state of existence is inherently always bound by Time, its quite difficult to imagine something that exists without it..
    There is much to say about this matter and I will not derail the train of thought from the overall thread. Yet because of what you offer above is so important, it seems prudent to touch on this for just a moment .

    You mention ' our fundamental state of existence is inherently always bound by Time' - this in fact is not the case. The core essential truth that one must realize is you , all of you reading this are boundless.
    Realization first comes with the intellectual understanding of this. It is this blemish (mala) that behooves man ( humanity) for all the ages. And what is that? We ( our core ~saraḥ~ or essence) is Being, satta, and this Being ( some like to call Self) is boundless, without break or pause1. This is our true Self. It is not bound by anything, this includes time.
    But who says this yajvan, other than you ? Who is the scriptural authority for this?

    Because this overall string is of the fragrance of the saṃkhya school, let me offer one verse that is compelling and authoritative:
    Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us in the chapter 2, 12th śloka of the bhāgavad gītā:
    na tvevāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ |
    na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ sarve vayam ataḥ param ||
    2.12
    this says,
    there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men.
    Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be ||2.12

    This is the highest truth one can consider. That one’s essential Self, who you really are, is and will always be; Where then is time and it’s constraint on any one if there is no start or stop?

    It is when we ‘buy-in’ to the idea that we come and go, that time is real and it pushes us around that we subscribe to being a limited being. The ‘individual’. This is the core mala ( blemish). If one buys this ( individuality) then he/she is caught and crushed by time. Yet kṛṣṇa-ji informs us of the truth ( from the verse above).

    Who else offers this wisdom ? Look to gauḍapādacharya’s work called the māṇḍūkyopaniṣatkārikā (māṇḍūkya-upaniṣad-kārikā), also known as gauḍapādiyakārikā, done in 215 verses , 4 chapters. It is his commentary of one of the central upaniṣad-s (number 3 out of the top 10) within vedānta thought. Gauḍapādacharya-ji lays the foundation for the advaita tradition. What could be more authoritative?

    To not pursue this ultimate truth is selling a diamond for the price of spinach.

    ...yathā icchasū tathā kuru
    do as you see fit ( or as you wish)


    शिवःकरोतिसर्वम्
    śivaḥkarotisarvam


    1.
    without break or pause:
    turyātīte bheda ekaḥ
    satatoditaityam || tantrāloka 10.283
    · 'without break or pause' is some times called avicchinnātaparamārthaṁ, uninterrupted, yet the word I often use is satatoditam (satata + udita)
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #16
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    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    Om

    Namaste Yajvanji and SanatanaDharmaji.

    The discussion has been enriching. The fact that the basic principles include the boundless and timeless characteristics have been propounded by all. As I understand, the factor time comes into being at certain state and thus the concept of boundary is created beyond that.

    At absolute state, the time and boundary cease to exist.

    However I am waiting with all open ears to learn more.

    Love and best wishes
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  7. #17

    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    namaste Yajvan,

    A quick clarification "that statement was with respect to every entity trapped inside the maya called "Prakruthi: which itself is bound by Time""...
    if the whole point you are trying to make is that Aatma[Self] is not bound by Time,naturally that is the absolute truth and there is nothing to discuss further...


    if that does not clarify, then the following explanation...

    Sri Vaasudeva very beautifully says at many places in Bhagavad Gita
    - that once one remembers "Him at the "Time" of travelling from one body to another", such an entity "will attain Him and will never come back"
    does that mean, till one attains Him, the "Time" factor still exists and binds that entity?- food for thought

    "is you , all of you reading this are boundless" this is the prime reason for mentioning the fact that even the greatest sages find quite difficult to comprehend "Time"..

    First of all on what basis did the terms "you" and "all of you" were derived along with the term "boundless-ness"...how was a boundary drawn for "you" and "all of you"...what is the criteria for distinguishing the two separate terms...till "what Time" will this two terms remain separate...or are they really two separate terms?

    the answer is also provided in that statement you make: "
    The core essential truth that one must realize", which very clearly indicates that that the realization of "truth" is not yet achieved...if that is the case, every entity that has not yet realized the truth is in a particular "unrealized state" ...if an entity, which is in "unrealized state" is not bound by Time, then it becomes impossible to go to the "realized state" ,as Time is the only factor which will influence "action"..here its the action of an entity moving from an "unrealized state" to a "realized state"...else the "unrealized entity" will continue to stay in that state...so for those primary reasons the entities which are derived inside Prakruthi are inherently always bound by Time...

    The word "inherently" is also very important when we say the fundamental state of existence is inherently always bound by Time....we are talking about the Prakrithi...where the illusion of individuality has been created, where everything inside it inherits the properties of Prakruthi...and most importantly Prakruthi itself is "bound by Time" so its almost clear to understand that everything derived from Prakruthi is automatically bound by Time....

    Please use the "kshara and akshara Purusha" terms mentioned in Bhagavad Gita..you will very clearly understand what I am trying to say...

    Again "if the whole point you are trying to make is that Aatma[Self] is not bound by Time,naturally that is the absolute truth and there is nothing to discuss further..."





  8. #18

    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    Namaste,

    Great thread and I also do not want to divert, as it's all inter~connected I will try to add what I understand.

    Time and the elements are quite simple to understand within the material energy, I am using some viveka at the moment to make a distinction between the boundless nature of the material and the boundless nature of the spiritual energy because they are different. They are both boundless but in diferent ways.

    How is time eternal when we are existing in something that has the nature to be temporary, logic would then say that time is temporary as nothing lasts, this wrong view does not take the continuum into account. Conditions are always changing, this is an ongoing process, there is no start or end to this. Recently I heard that on our planet there is always the same amount of water, the element water always has the same volume, but water is always moving and appears and disappears. This must be true for all the elements. So the material energy is like a recycling machine, but each manifestation is always slightly different, conditions are always changing, no two snowflakes are exactly the same, like our finger prints they are unlimited in their design. So due to the complex nature of movement of the material energy it's never the same twice, so therefore it's unbounded.

    Being bound by time is being bound by the cause of action and it's effect, but nothing stays still, being bound in any condition is not fixed, it will change, time directs these things in a interconnected way with all the other elements, time along with the other factors are always moving, on the go creating and destroying itself in eternal and ever new ways. That is one way that I can see material energy as being boundless, it has infinite boundless movement and change.

    Time as experienced through awareness. When becoming arises it is bound by time, what arises in the becoming of something is when the material elements are agitated, or prakriti is activated from pradhana it comes under the jurisdiction of time, time is inherent in pradhana like all elements. If the conditions of becoming are not agitated time does not exist, and one is situated in the boundless state of the true self, which has no footing or quality within the material energy, it's boundless in a different way. Pradhana is dependant of consciousness to be activated but consciousness or awareness is not dependant on matter for its own self sufficient state.

    In the uncreated there is no time because there is no becoming, it's not bound by anything, time is activated when consciousness identifies with and agitates the elements, this is the view from the point of consciousness and it's relation to time and the material energy.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 13 March 2018 at 03:42 PM.

  9. #19
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    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    Om

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by SanathanaDharma View Post
    Aatma[Self] is not bound by Time,naturally that is the absolute truth
    I hope the Self mentioned above is referring to the Unrealized State. As the concept of the self comes with Time.

    As rightly said along with Maya or Prakruiti.

    Any entity at gross level carries the elements of the characteristics as enumerated by you, which possibly forms the state of mind, does the five maha elements have any role to play at gross and subtle level ?

    Say for example (just for the sake of discussion) Earth may be more connected to gross body, where as Fire might be more towards subtle body, Space might be again in starting of subtle ... so on and so forth.

    In case these can be linked, then the next question comes - how are the sunlight, earth, etc still influencing us ? In this continuum of all layers how is the interplay happening ?

    Love and best wishes
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  10. #20

    Re: Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

    continuing from the previous post regarding the enumerations..

    "I hope the Self mentioned above is referring to the Unrealized State."...we will soon get into the details...as there are totally three final entities which we will be looking into and one of them is Aatma...we will get into that details soon...

    "Any entity at gross level carries the elements of the characteristics as enumerated by you, which possibly forms the state of mind, does the five maha elements have any role to play at gross and subtle level ? " ...very interesting question..following explanations will provide clarity to the other questions you have put forward too...I am sorry for taking a lot of time to provide explanations as your questions are very very interesting and deserve an in-depth and elaborate responses...

    the final four are the most powerful amongst the 24 and we get to them now...

    [Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-14]

    mano buddhir ahaṅkāraś
     cittam ity antar-ātmakam
    caturdhā lakṣyate bhedo
     vṛttyā lakṣaṇa-rūpayā


    Sri Vaasudeva enumerates those 4 elements which collectively is referred to as the "antar-aatma", the inner-aatma...why is it so, we will get it to later
    - Manas - the Mind
    - Buddhi - the Intellect
    - Chitta - usually referred to as the consciousness, we will understand it better later
    - Aham - The identity [not Ego as very popular described], we will understand it better later

    we will get into these terms in depth as that will answer a lot of complicated questions...the antar-aatma...it technically is one entity but is composed of 4 entities ...these four entities [mind, intellect, consciousness and the identity] can be only "marked as different" based on their "functionality/action/work" and "form of their lakshana[roughly features]"..so technically we can go back to the white light prism example again...the four entities are part of a single antar-aatma...however they are differentiated into four entities based on the actions they perform, the features they are made up of...

    now that the enumeration is complete regarding the 24 elements of Pradhana, in order to understand them clearly, we will take help of Time and then enter Prakruthi and figure out how all of these work together..how are they mutually connected...who am "I"...who is entangled where...how to understand all of these things....and other mysteries of the cosmos....

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