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Thread: Turiya and Brain Damage?

  1. #11

    Re: Turiya and Brain Damage?

    Namaste Devotee Ji,

    I know what you mean, Its complex to explain, and I cant explian properly and in some ways I am not even trying to do that, but in essence its the most simple thing, there are some things that I understand now but seemed complex before but when a bit of better understanding comes I think to myself, wow so simple, how could I have missed it....... The depth and profundity of it has no way to be measured, and its the giving up the measuring faculty that needs to be put aside for the invitation of something more complete and whole.

    To continue that both Vedanta and Buddha Dharma are not separate teachings.

    Over the past few years I have been more aware of the structure within the teachings on Vedanta, that structure being the avasthas, states and turiya transcendent, unaffected by any state. In the teaching on Vedanta the structure is around jagrat ~ physical consciousness, Svapna, mental consciousness, sushupti~ consciousness absent of jagrat, and svapna (sushupti for me is getting harder to give any direct translation, deep sleep is not good enough, it’s a very conscious state with many things going on ) and Turiya Absolute whole distinct from all avasthas and states ~Brahman. I got more clues when seeing the teachings as described as states same as within Buddhism and not anything else, even if turiya gets described as a state, its not an emergency only a platformed concept to introduce something more profound.

    In Abhidharma, which I am more aware of its teachings and terminology, only recently made the link up that the structure is also the same. The 3 avasthas or spheres are 1.Karma Loka or the sense sphere( jagrat),2. Rupa Loka form sphere which includes mental consciousness rupa jhana , fine material spheres (svapna). karma and rupa loka are in complete dependency and interlinked 3. arupa sphere formless, sunya, emptiness, somewhat distinct and separate, immaterial formless spheres( sushupti) and 4. lokuttara, world transcending Tathāgata~Brahman.

    The key area for knowing Brahman for the conditioned beings lies in sushupti. A side note, it is this part of the teachings that has been manipulated with to create misunderstanding in translation, to cause division and unrest, along with mundane divisive terms such as personal and impersonal to describe nirguna and saguna, hence the need for chitta bhavana or training of the chitta in ways of samadhi~union, to get to know the real essence of the previous gurus, who are not divided , distinction only in Vad~oral teaching and yukta~methodology. To jump from ordinary being to Brahman without the chitta training of sushupti will cause problems, I see this in both the Bhakti and Jnana Marg, although Jnana and Bhakti work in total union together, devotion to and knowledge of the Self.


    Denying sushupti or bad translations of the formless states is harmful both intellectually and for progress in atma jnana, (form being translated always as the limited mental and physical consciousness) or thinking sushupti is deep sleep, using the word deep sleep can only be applied as an analogy or example, its an awakened state that one will be fully conscious of all the way through, understanding its value in the right way leads to the deepening of realization of the Absolute~Brahman.

    In the states of sushupti and sunya is where the real alchemy takes place, in the normal function of the chitta in samsara or the constant flow of repeated activities of conditioned existence the chitta is just absorbing and recreating reality according to its association with gunas, this is perpetual, cyclic, at night in deep sleep in a dull state there is no repair or empowerment of the chitta into swarupa. This is not the deep sleep of the yogi who arrives at the state beyond ordinary mental and physical consciousness via chitta bhavana or applying the techniques sadhanas and skillful means ~upayas to ones daily waking existence. Then when sushupti or sunya is experienced in the awakened cognitive state in absorption, Dhyana or Jhana it then attracts Prajna ~ Turiya, Pra is the magic, the wonder, the transcendent power of Brahman , shared in the chitta or left as imprints in the chitta is the transcendent quality of Brahman, to the one who is worthy of that attainment, no small thing and rarely found in completeness in this world, the presence of turiya in the chitta gets stronger in all the avasthas, this is how I see Brahman entering into this world through the chitta. Brahman then enters this world for the upliftmemt of the world brahma-karma-samadhina BG4.24, the worlds lokas are then ruled only by Brahman. World or outside world may or may not be the explicit meaning of Loka or be the only meaning, Turiya is purifying all the internal lokas in Shusupti, how that effects the outside world who knows as each Jiva is a unique shakti but the essence is one, many a time they may go unnoticed if we are in ignorance, but make the right adjustments, same as Brahman this cant be measured because it is Brahman alone who is acting as the Jiva, which is important to know for the continuation and protection of dharma in the world.

    None of the traditions say their practice ends in Sunya, sushupti, but it Is the most important gateway for union for the sadhaka, in many ways its the real beginning of swarupa lakshanam, our spiritual life.

    The very first real Sanskrit word that seemed to pull me in as the main interest was always Brahman, by following its lead it has lead me into complete unity of the dharma traditions, even after years of being made to feel I was wrong, so there is some personal satisfaction but it transcends that as it leads more to understanding what the teachings and goals are, and the way to attain , if these words can be used. Both Vedanta and Buddha Dharma is not about building an idea of faith and then believing it as much as possible, its about full transformation of this conditioned being, the limitation and the invitation of the Supreme, and all this is taking place in the chitta or the chitta trained in ways of samadhi, its very specific.

    There are a couple of things jumping out at the moment, and that is what happens to our waking jagrat consciousness which we hold so dear and absolute and our mental states that form the basis of measuring success and failures, for example, if i practice spiritual life will it make my jagrat and svapna life better, I am not so sure, there are ways it benefits us, health and balance of mind is improved. We may sometimes have the wrong view on how it applies to jagrat and Svapna, niskamkarma is an important state .

    Knowing that jiva is not the doer when Brahman enters the Chitta, not only helps the understanding of brahma vidya, but also it comes with a quality of consciousness and not something that belongs exclusively to one jiva, and is only known in full humility, sushupti is that humility, pure receptivity, emptiness filled with the qualities acquired in chitta bhavana through the ways of samadhi. In these states Turiya is attracted to enter into the chitta or ones awakened consciousness........ Jagrat and svapna states are not given that much credit to fix in and of themselves, that maybe one of our aims in the start, to improve the qualities in this life and Brahman does that, but not just for that.

    The balancing of the mental and physical for equanimity in Sattva only to lead one further towards Brahman, and how Brahman then enters by his varying potencies in the chitta, to improve the consciousness , this cant be measured or attached to with Mind.

    Everything is impermanent, even jivamukta is impermanent in the sense that his body and material form will at some point cease, his swarupa which is chit shakti is without start or end, his power is Brahman, it cant be owned or kept exclusively to one individual jiva. In Bhagavad Gita Sri Krsna was the source of all Arjuna strength and ability, when krsna wrapped up his lila Arjuna when going to meet Yudhistrira in Himalaya was beaten easily by 5 dacoits with sticks, Arjunas strength in Mahabaharata and the war came only from Krsna.

    The powers~ bala's attained in sushupti do not have much to do with self generated powers of the Jiva, they are not born or maintained by ahamkara. In sushupti, sunya, the arupa jhanas arrived at by way of samadhi chitta bhavana there is the sharing of the vibhuti's of Brahman, and this would be something sacred, Brahman slowly introduces Himself into this world until the Chitta is non different to Brahman. It’s the gradual divination of the jiva, all glories of Brahman are found in sushupti, sunya, arrived only by chitta bhavana, training in the ways of samadhi.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 05 May 2018 at 03:55 AM.

  2. #12

    Re: Turiya and Brain Damage?

    Namaste

    Meditation on the Self

    I would like to particularly understand how the Buddhists reach different stages of Jhanas. Does it come naturally with practice of Vipassana ? Suppose during meditation, mind keeps wandering in thoughts and doesn't reach its tranquil state. Then what do they advise to the practitioner ? Bhagwad Gita advises to bring back the mind again and again to AtMAn (i.e. Brahman) but how long it goes on ?

    Lets just make a distinction here about Self and not self for the time being, the conditioned state and true identity. Brahman is always nirguna without conditioning nirbija, seedless. For me personally with the advaita philosophy that’s translated ( to make a distinction of the advaita Vedanta , real advaita) I was always confused with the use of Brahman for everything, everything is brahman, there is no existence outside of brahman, I am Brahman, all this is Brahman, I will come to this in moment according to the mahavakayas of the rishis.


    With the translated versions of Advaita and Brahman, even within the dwaita and other dharma traditions I was still not fully satisfied with the meaning of Brahman~brahma as represented in translations and practices in todays world. I am only talking about translations, not the real teachings of advaita. I can say the same about Buddhism and also Gaudia Vaishnavism on how translations can harm the meaning, something most are aware of.


    Now to address the above question to make a synthesis between the 3 traditions, Buddha Dharma, Bhagavat Dharma and Advaita Vedanta, I am not partial to one above the other, they are all great and deliver profound meaning and are in total union with each other.

    In Gaudia Viashnavism they speak about vani and vapu, its when there is the presence of the guru and he speaks and gives instructions, its broader than this but as a first example. Guru speaks and the devotee listens and follows and acts accordingly. This is direct association with the guru vapu, when the guru is not present his instructions remain in vani, they are there but not as a physical presence. There is no difference between vapu and vani.

    When we hear the words Go to the Atma, The Self, Brahman we ultimately think it means Nirguna or the Real self as a state or realization, anything less than this is the Self covered in Maya. Who can do that and is the Self limited to just knowing him in the highest and absolute senses, great past sages went through all sorts of hardships to break down conditioning and reach the state of perfection.

    So are the instructions of the Self any different to the Self. Self means Brahman , Krsna in Bhagavada Gita is that Brahman, Krsna is the Self in Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna cant quite reach the Atma, even after some instructions or at least we can say Arjuna is giving us chance to know about lesser steps that build up to the full Brahman Realization. So all knowledge's that comes from Krsna in instruction or purification of the self to know Self is absolutely related to one another and undifferentiated.

    The sadhu or realized being who walks on earth and uplifts society to the ultimate potential, is also non different to the Self, he is Brahman and all his actions and words are non-different to Brahman~SB 5.15.7.

    If we have attachments to this world and mundane states of mind this causes obstacles to reach Self-realization. If meditating on the Self to know the Self was just trance of Nirvikalpa samadhi then we all might as well pack up now and go on holiday, these things are rare and based on specific conditions and also including anugraha and guru kripa.

    So there is the gradual teachings, the gradual teachings are not different to Brahmanic consciousness, is mediating, acting and being with the Self, same as vani and vapu.

    There is such huge importance in the abhidarma on attainment of the first jhana, when siddharta sat under the bodhi tree before his enlightenment his first recollection was when he was a child and his mind drifted into an absorption, he experienced the 1st jhana in early ages just sitting in a field watching the feilds and its workers. This was the 1st jhana state, from remembering this he saw the whole path and cultivated the jhanas as a means to Self realization. Also Bhagavad Gita says even the smallest advancement can save one from the greatest fear, these are the early jhanas, they may not remain but the importance should never be under estimated and will come back to help in the future.

    Back to the mahavakyas that claim everything to be Brahman, even myself to be Brahman in an undifferentiated state and why it causes confusion, and more stress needs to be put on the gradual path rather than the ultimate state and they are non different, sadhana and the object of sadhana are one.

    If Brahman is Absolutely everything then whats the use of practice, why not just watch films all day, enjoy, get drunk be merry, even commit violence , because its all Brahman , its all undifferentiated. This whole mass of undifferentiated consciousness causes me a headache, is not correct according to Vedanta and for the human it destroys swarupa, and we are left with ego maniac solipsism, absolute monism and monotheism are just absurd ideas~anthropomorphic. Vipassana helped me solve these things, luckily .

    The rishis are uttamas, nothing higher than a rishi ,they only relate in anubhava pratyaksha~ direct perception, there is no difference to what they speak and what they are seeing and experiencing. Their great Vak~speech, the mahavakyas are paravidya, para vak, within turiya, not contaminated by any of the previous 3 states that make up the brahmanda. If that speech gets brought into the ordinary world where mostly people consciousness and learning through speech is more conditioned by svapna and jagrat or mental and physical there is only one way that the mahavakyas gets interpreted, in a mundane way. It doesnt even get close on the brilliance of how Brahman enters the world, uplifts the world, benefits the world and is the Absolute truth.

    Hence the confusion and over estimation of the mahavakyas in lower states of consciousness is within translations and the conditions. Its just not as simple as that, the essence is simple, be Self Realized and then Mahavkayas will be explained without doubt, and we wont need the empirical devices for it to be known, for this there is the need to be in the same type of consciousness, turiya or turiyatita. So in most cases we cant just meditate on the Self in its highest sense, or what we perceive in highest sense, this would be just an abstraction an illusion, the real abstraction of nirguna is the mixing of saguna and nirguna as a transcendent potency Ishvara.

    Brahman entering the world through purified Chitta to me makes so much senses, both reflective, meditative and intellectually.

    In the gradual process( chitta bhavan) there is application of viveka, this word is very interesting, it can relate to knowing the difference between spirit and matter or Self and not self but also its combined with wisdom, which is the Self, so the practice of Viveka is also meditating on the Self.

    Meditating in the Self in Turiya~ completion~Brahman realization, kaivalya, mass of undifferentiated consciousness, transcendent only known by experience~bodhi.

    Meditating on the Self in Sushupti~ transformation in immaterial formless realms

    Meditating On the Self in Svapna, instructions to know how to regulate physical and mental consciousness to cultivate equanimity, but also how to develop early stages of Dhyana to enter sushupti.

    Meditating on the Self in Jagrat~ respecting all physical objects, ahimsa and taking care of health and daily routine~virtue.

    All of the above is meditating on Self, as with vapu or vani direct presence or via instruction, they are identical.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 07 May 2018 at 10:59 AM.

  3. #13

    Re: Turiya and Brain Damage?

    Namaste

    Vipassana meditation

    Firstly, what is vipassana, is it an impersonal mediation or outside of Vedanta and something different from meditation on Brahman. Vipassana we can say is a mental factor, a state often translated as insight or seeing inwardly, its not a practice on its own, it’s a fruit of practice to gain insight. What accompanies vipassana is samatha or calm abiding, this is also a state. What supports vipassana is satipatthana Sati meaning recollection and upatthana which is attending, patthana~ bringing to a point, it has much broader and deeper meanings and if translated in devnagari alone I cant see how it isn’t illuminating, these are the sadhanas or the yuktas or arrangement of the mind for cultivation of the jhanas by Brahman alone, what practices come from the brahmavadis is non different from brahman, as there is no duality between themselves, their words and brahman.

    The more refined the practice becomes they become more easily definable in the mind as mental factors that support samatha and vipassana calm abiding and inner vision, which then supports the development of arupa jhanas~sushupti~ which supports full enlightenment~ sambodhi~Turiya~Brahman......

    Satipatthana is whats known as mindfulness today, just like Advaita Vedanta there is also neo mindfulness, its been sold out. I m attempting to keep with the structure of traditional Theravada and the Vipassana traditions, mostly of Thailand, Burma and Sri Lanka, which should be the basis, although there is some discussion in translations there is usually universal acceptance of what vipassana, samatha and the general body of their teachings are in traditional Buddhism.

    satipatthana has four objects of recollection and attending to as its focus to build up strength in chitta for the arising of samatha and vipassana ~calm abiding and insight. The four foundations of satipatthana~ recollection and attendance and bringing the point of ones attention to the body sensations, vedana, chitta and natural laws ~dharma’s, objects in the chitta. By a constant bringing ones attention to either one or all of the four foundations of mindfulness one gains samatha and vipassana, with vipassana there is two insights gained, one of the impermanence of all natural phenomena and also of the radiance of chitta~consciousness. I am sure satipatthana can be translated as to leading towards Brahman in one way or another with some expertise. But beyond etymology is the organization of the mind for insight, which then leads to deeper understanding of oneself and consciousness however that is defined. Vitaka can be used in this but in some of the stricter vipassana retreat mantra and internal ajapa is not recommended, Vitarka here is the bringing/applying ones attention on the four objects of mindfullness, body, vedana~feelings and Dharma~natural laws of phenomenon in the chitta,chitta~ consciousness.

    Its an ancient practice , they say the Buddha revived/discovered it. This could be a historical saying but it can also mean only an awakened beings can rediscover the teachings in their fullness, it depends on how one translates Buddha.

    In this way I don’t see any difference between vipassana , samatha and satipatthana as anything separated from meditation on Brahman, as usual I haven't explained it to well, its in there somewhere. In the beginning mind wavers and flickers and gradually through practice, hard effort sometimes, the mental factors which are the vibhutis of Brahman become more established in the chitta.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 09 May 2018 at 05:56 AM.

  4. #14

    Re: Turiya and Brain Damage?

    Samatha and vipassana as non-different to samadhi. This is understood more by sati than anything academic, while etymology is good there is a tendency to break things down into small parts and micro analyse them as separate citikesha’s or mental factors ~ Sanskrit: caitasika; Pali: cetasika, when in fact they all form parts of whole states, whole enough to lead into bigger expansive states until Brahman Realization, entrance in the unlimited , unbounded and transcendent.

    In one of Richard Dawkins interviews with Satish Kumar, they spoke about two perspectives of wanting to understand a tree, Satish Kumar was more into seeing it for what it is as whole and something complete and Dawkins as scientist wanted to see things in its molecular structure, rip it apart study each atom and molecule and separate the wholeness and completeness of the tree. Some academic study is done like that and has its uses, but breaking things to much into parts can alter the compound or make it confusing and make it not even recognizable as a tree.

    There are a lot of complex compounds( states) where mental factors~cetasika are all operating at the same time, so its not like there is first mindfulness, and then vipassana and this gives samatha, or there is samatha then mindfulness and then insights, or there is insight, samatha then mindfulness, it can work like that but that is not what abhidharma is describing, they are often describing whole states and perfections in whole states as universal points in consciousness, paramitas, completeness or perfection, these can be divided and also unified into stages as in first jhana to 9 jhana to sambodhi or full awakening. Vipassana is perfected as a full and complete compound to reach brahma bhuta. So a lot of things are arising simultaneously at rates only a fully awakened being can measure with any accuracy, the maths behind mental states is way beyond me, kalpas, yugas and so on and time space catergory between lokas in states of samadhi~yoganas( maybe oneside of yojana s physcial distance 8-15 miles, there is also a inner distance) this is all covered in suttas and abhidharma, and in the yoga sutras and all dharma shastras, but its hard to really get in any of the translations, hence the need for chitta bhavana, training the mind in ways of union samadhi, the wholeness then becomes more and more apparent, without any anthropomorphic reasoning and distortions.

    One of the great things I liked about Buddhism is that it gives pretty much no attention to monotheism, which is ruining Vedanta, this is why I consider Buddha Dharma which is synonymous and identical with Vedanta can help out in certain parts to unify things for future generations and the protection of all sentient beings, what to speak of just the human culture side of things. But the monotheistic and education systems have done a good job at making division between the two. I think these days are numbered,in fact im sure....

    Back to samatha and vipassana as non-different to samadhi, samadhi is a compound of sama and dhi, sama is based on sound, nada, absorption, settling, calming, absorbing, bhavas, metta bhavana, mudhita, bhakti, things associated with feelings from normal/ to supramandane or transcendent, deeper and more subtle states that have direct effects the nadis, and purification and divination of the chitta.

    But it cant go alone, it needs dhi, spiritual intellect, intuitive, joyti, buddhi, illumination and known only in the cultivation of chitta bhavana, samatha and vipassana are states of sabda and joyti that need perfect balance for the right effect. Samatha without vipassana does not bring kusla or complete wholesome states of mind and one can slip back into the whirlpool of conditioned existence, samatha practice alone can get one to the higher lokas or states of bliss and heavenly mental enjoyments but if vipassana is missing or not developed or experienced, then one slips back down until the perfection and balance of samatha and vipassana are unified, they cant be separated in the full compounded state kusla, kusala means wholesome state, it also means ridding of the evils or kleshas, kusla is Brahman, onlu Brahman can purify the klesha, they work in synthesis and are in union, samadhi is union ~ union is turiya, same with vipassana or insights and illuminations are not enough enough without samatha. In the development of matured jhana or absorption satipatthana and the four foundations of mindfulness , samatha and vipassana all form into a developed state, and this brings into the chitta other factors or citikesha’s of the same nature but more subtle and more profound. As the chitta matures by regular chitta bhavana, which is just keeping the mind focused and always engaged on ones personal practice and fruits, the inner strength of the chitta builds up due to that constant association.The arahant or divine jiva has no need for kusla because he has no kelsha, therefore Brahman enters the compound, take the shape of the compound as a higher state and then destroys that compound by its own power, to establish Brahman.

    As with Vedanta traditions and abhidharma the first member is sraddha. Sraddha is as a confusing term for many people, to mean belief or a faith, almost as if we are supposed to believe in one idea or by strengthen reasoning and intellect one develops faith, these may play minor roles, but in the samadhi traditions they are given much more importance as a quality of consciousness that recognizes and knows where to lay its attention to find the Transcendent, shraddha lies in experience and is a fruit of initial practice or regulating the mental and physical dynamic, logic, reasoning, mental ideological belief and ordinary faith are mundane mental factors that lead to application of chitta bhavana.

    Harih Om
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 09 May 2018 at 06:05 AM.

  5. #15

    Re: Turiya and Brain Damage?

    Namaste,

    I was thinking of a sutra to try to complete some of the the things that was wrote about and I remembered the Avatamsaka Sutra, it was/is one of the most popular sutras in South East Asia.

    Hua Yan and chan are good studies and offer a lot for development and practice, chan is jhana/dhyana which then went onto to become known as Zen, . Hua Yen is sometimes known as the path of bodhisattva and the main bodhisattva in the flower sutra is samantabhadra, all the powers of the Bodhisattva come from the Buddha alone who is Tathagata~Brahman.


    https://selfdefinition.org/zen/Garla...saka-Sutra.pdf

    Just like clear and pure eyes
    Which, because of the sun, can see a multitude of forms,
    So too, the pure mind in the same way

    Can see the Tathagata by means of the Buddha’s power.

    This verse seems to illustrate how Brahman reveals itself in purified chitta by its own power.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 09 May 2018 at 04:55 PM.

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