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Thread: Vak, Avastha, Turiya and Bhagavad Gita

  1. #1

    Vak, Avastha, Turiya and Bhagavad Gita


    Please forgive any errors ​

    This is a simple attempt and far from perfect to present something from Bhagavad Gita and Mahabharata to help find the universal context of Shastra, dharma does not in anyway contradict itself. yukta method and all dharmas are revealed in sushupti by Turiya and ways to bring it into the normal world to direct the individual into universal understanding of Dharma, which leads to Turiya and is maintained by Turiya and brings balance both to the outside world and inside world. I am seeing far more ways how 3 avasthas and turiya are included in the texts and as part of ones sadhana, which includes sloka reflections. Behind all the words is the simplicity to find and live in the awareness of Turiya, which purifies oneself and outside world simultaneously and spontaneously without any limitations of the Mind getting in the way.

    Four Vaks and 3 avasthas per Bhagavad Gita

    Four Vaks

    Para-Vak is the highest form of sound. It issues forth from the Supernal Ether (paramam vyomam) where all the sound vibrations that build the various lokas pre-exist in an undifferentiated state~pradhana.

    Pashyanti is the sound vibration heard in the Causal lokas. Pashyanti in Sanskrit means “seeing speech”. A sage whose consciousness is concentrated in the causal body is able to “glimpse” a Truth in a vision or a revelation. Knowledge is acquired in the inner mind by sight without the use of the reasoning faculty or sensory data.

    Madhyama (Middle)is the sound as perceived in the subtle or the Pranic world. A good example of this would be the thought-forms held in our mind. Rupa

    Vaikhari is the lowest form of sound and it signifies outward expression. This is the spoken word emerging from the our throat.

    Para Vak~ Turiya~Veda

    Pasyanti~ Sushupti~ speech through pure awareness

    Madhyam~ Svapna~ speech through the mind

    Vaikhari ~ jagrat~ speech through the senses

    Vak is sound, Vak makes vad or dharma siddhanta in sushupti state, directly from Turiya. vak and Vad are non different to Turiya, in 3 levels, higher manas ~Svapna, Pure consciousness~Sushupti, and Turiya ~ Transcendence. There is no speaking of krsna in sense consciousness jagrat, kali yuga. If mind is elevated out of the senses one goes into Higher loka where we start to communicate with Krsna directly

    The Rig Veda 1.164.45 says “catvari vak parimita padani tani vidur brahmana ye minishinah, guha trini nihita neengayanti turiyam vaco manushya vadanti” (i.e. The cognoscenti know of the Vak that exists in four forms . Three are hidden and the fourth is what men speak) .

    At the start of the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna is facing the battle.

    According to the four Yugas and lokas, also known as Avastha states and how Krsna slowly brings Arjuna back to Godhead Turiya, transcendence.

    Kali Yuga is Jagrat sense consciousness

    Svapna~ Dwarpa Yuga Mind consciousness

    Krsna does NOT leave Dwarpa Yuga, His lila starts and ends in Dwarpa which purifies the senses, and will have different impacts on the world and srronding, mainly to align the dharma for evolution of all sentient beings, Kali yuga starts when Dwarpa ends , Krsna ends his Lila in Dwarpa, Dwarpa Yuga starts when we turn our minds inwards and turns towards the Supreme, but there is still agitation. This is why the materialist like duroydhana and others did not see Krsna, even though he was always there right in front of them, they work against Krsna because they didn’t see him as Supreme, maybe some historic person or great person but not as Supreme. Arjuna did. We can see the Deity, read the books, but may not be able to see Krsna or known him as Turiya, transcendent, this is due to Kali Yuga, sense consciousness, Jagrat. Dwarpa seems to represent the inward mind or rupa Jhana, one can be awake and conscious in Svapna state in the rupa Jhanas/dhyanas, but its not yet sushupti, they are absorption's of the mind going inwards. These things are not easy to try and describe in short, at least to present it public. I think for now my best understanding is the descriptions of the 4 rupa Jhanas of mind going inward and how its still in svapna state on the ascent of the jiva. How turiya comes back through svapna is something different.

    Jagrat and Svapna are always joined. On the OM sign which is the syllable for Absolute perfection there are 4 defining shapes to its full identity.

    Seed-syllable OM

    The Number 3 looking part is Jagrat

    The tail that comes off the om syllable is Svapna, Jagrat and Svapna are always together, they represent the psycho physical dynamic relationship between Mind and the senses, Svapna has two parts which gets further defined in Vedanta as chitta going outwards towards the senses and inward moving Chitta that turns towards the Atma. Arjuna is never in Kali Yuga, but he is affected but it and he turns his mind and senses towards Krsna in Bhagavad Gita. Duroyodhana and his desire for the whole empire is Kali Yuga, his mind and senses are turned towards Earth element and wants to control and own, which causes a disturbance.

    The Study of OM,the 3 avastha and Turiya A-U-M represent the Avasthas and when fully in union is Turiya is very applicable to all sadhanas. Sushupti and Turiya are separate, not touching or effected by mind and sense consciousness.

    Arjuna's grief took his mind to Krsna, his senses dried up as he contemplated the enemies on the Battlefield, and fell fatigued and helpless, this indicates the limitation of the outward going mind and the sense. Mind has two sides, Arjuna was now in Dwarpa turning his mind inwards towards the Supreme, senses had already dried up, sense of sight, sense of taste, sense of touch and sense of feeling through the senses, Mind in Kali or jagrat only sense desire causes both disturbance for oneself and others, consciousness starts in Sattva. Sattva is Sushupti, Krsna slowly brings Arjunas inner seeking in Dwarpa, or Mind directing itself towards the Supreme Krsna the all attractive Turiya, in this way Krsna first appears to Arjuna guides him to Treta, sushupti, where Ishvara has his unique transcendent abodes to purify and empower Gudakesh Arjuna on the battlefield of mind and sense consciousness.

    At the start of the second Chapter first thing that krsna is saying to Arjuna is to wake up out of his ignorance , he wakes him by reminded immediately of the Atma, he takes him or is taking him out of normal outgoing perception due to Arjuna inwardly seeking a solution for his outgoing mind and sense consciousness, inwardly turning towards the Supreme.

    In Mahabharat, when the pandavas where exiled, 5 pandavas also represent the Indiryas , but they were of Devic Nature, and have aligned devatas as their Dharma. In their exile for 15 years, which can also be considered as sadhana period, in Mahabharat the 5 pandava's did for yoga and became siddha's in this period, thats why Krsna told Arjuna 2.11 so strongly and directly due to his previous sadhana, there is a place in Odhisha where the Pandavas did their tapas, and yogis still go there to this day.

    Krsna in Sankhya yoga is waking up Arjuna and teaching him balance, of natural outward feeling forces, he is calming him down, he is teaching him how to deal with duality of the material energy. Krsna is always situated in Turiya, he never leaves Turiya, he is never disturbed and always smiling, to hear him he created the lokas in sushupti to transmit divya jnana or transcend knowledge. He begins His teaching in dwarpa, where one see’s Krsna as the inner deity and ruler of the mind, krsna then balances arjuna's distress and guides him, reealving him of his outward mind and sense distress, to sthitha Prajna, through ways of equanimity, for samadhi~union with Turiya.

    Arjuna by the end of 2nd chapter has transcended jagrat and svapna and has entered Sushupti, or gudakesha, he is awake, the awakened state, and krsna then starts to descend and empower Arjuna by first teaching Arjuna that he is never the doer of transcendence, it is not Arjuna, who is considered as the individual Jiva that purifies the Lokas, and acts through Mind and senses once purified, this key point, essential.

    Then Krsna guides Arjuna through sushupti and teaches him all the dharmas in samadhi, or ways to understanding him and purify his cosmology, this is profound state, but not the end, its only profound compared to ordinary mind and sense consicousness. Middle part of Gita is Arjuna in sushupti or intermediate state. Bhagavad Gita is about sri krsa fully empowering him to deal with the enemies in jagrat and svapna, conditioned mind and sense consciousnes. Sri Krsna becomes the chariot driver of the Mind,Arjuna is empowered and fought to establish dharma's discovered in sushupti, under the direction and guidance of Turiya, Krsna the all Attractive Atma.

    End of Gita Krsna talks about Brahma Vidya this concludes Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna was woken up, but not fully, Sri Krsna had to conclude Gita with Arjuna in Anu Gita in Dwarka, but everything is in Gita because Krsna spoke to Arjuna in in sushupti so hear can hear directly without the distraction of the mind and senses Krsna~Turiya also known as the 4th. There are more things contained and a lot of details. I hope im not confusing anything.

    Sushupti is where we learn dharmas, sushupti is where Avadhuta Sukadeva Goswami is teaching about universal laws and the structure of cosmology according to Vedanta. Its seen only in sushupti, in the same way that Krsna is Revealing his vibhuti to Arjuna in Chapter 11. , Krsna is showing Arjuna his own individual cosmology, that’s why he says nobody before has seen this, we all have unique cosmology Turiya will reveal Himself in his own unique way to each Jiva.

    Dharma is not easy to understand. Its not well covered in the translated texts with only basic references to four varnas, even these four varnas can be inwardly seen to be existing with each and every individual being at varying powers.

    Jai Guru Datta

    ( krsna reveals Dattreya to Uddhava) Guru Datta is param~guru of all Vaishnavas. He heads all sampradayas, all samapradayas are unified by Guru Datta.

    I typed it earlier as an email for someone else and have redited as some of the contexts may not apply.

    Its also part of practice.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 21 June 2018 at 07:49 AM.

  2. #2

    Vak, Avastha, Turiya and Bhagavad Gita


    Chapter 1. Setting the scene~visharda Yoga

    Also in Srimad Bhagavatam where Bhumi is going for refuge, we see the same system of approach, bhumi does not go outwards bhumi is turning within. The same way of seeking is being taught in Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna~ the individual Jiva is seeking Sri Krsna in Bhagavad Gita Chapter 1 by turning his mind inwards.

    Arjuna, complete with grief, and overcome by the disturbances of the outside world, ruled by corrupted leaders started to turn towards Sri Krsna, his journey was not one of the outgoing senses and mind to find a solution, he was turning his attention inwards towards the Supreme.

    Chaper 1 Bhagavad Gita Arjuna starts to turn his mind inwards.

    Taken from Yajvan Ji Post

    Let me list out the 18 below and start with chapter one.
    • adhyāya (chapter) 1
      viśāda or viśati - to enter or settle down; to mind or attend
      viśate - any business, attend to; be absorbed.

    It seems straight forward that the 1st chapter is considered viśati , or to enter, settle down or attend the mind. It is the entrance point for the knowledge to flow. Some can consider this chapter bhūmikā or the preface , an introduction to the overall story . We can also consider this the preface (bhūmikā) of the prapāṭhaka (lecture) to follow.

    It seems straight forward that the 1st chapter is considered viśati , or to enter, settle down or attend the mind. It is the entrance point for the knowledge to flow. Some can consider this chapter bhūmikā or the preliminary states , an introduction to the overall story . We can also consider this the preliminary states (bhūmikā) of the prapāṭhaka to follow.

    I made a slight change in the spirit of the thread and changed bhūmikā to preliminary state, I have limited tools but I found some reference to prapāṭhaka as balancing of the sun and moon, Sun and Moon in ancient dharma teachings is very important for the right understanding of consciousness and how Absolute Truth is realized.

    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 23 June 2018 at 08:48 AM.

  3. #3

    Re: Vak, Avastha, Turiya and Bhagavad Gita


    I revisited the first two slokas Of Bhagavad Gita few days ago. Mostly if honest previously I went to quickly with the first chapter, and did not give it enough time and attention, second chapter and chapter 6 were always the ones that I liked the most and chapter 13 and some various key slokas all over. But since looking at the first 14 slokas its opened up a whole new study if thats the right word,or look more closely at the slokas and revisit mahabharata.

    It occured that no word in Bhagavad Gita can be without reason, since its known as being essence of all Upanishads.

    In Sloka 1

    dhṛitarāśhtra uvācha
    dharma-kṣhetre kuru-kṣhetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ
    māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāśhchaiva kimakurvata sañjaya

    Dhrtarastra said: O Sanjaya, after assembling in the place of pilgrimage at Kuruksetra, what did my sons and the sons of Pandu do, being desirous to fight?

    dhṛitarāśhtra is blind, blinded by the attachment to his Hundred sons who wanted to rule and own the whole were about to start the war with Pandavas.

    This has many inner meanings, to much to say here, and others know better than me, and I am just revisiting this part also, but so much has fell into place.
    dhṛitarāśhtra is stuck in external Mind and Sense world due to his attachment Jagrat and Svapna, here dhṛitarāśhtra seeks council from sanjaya. Its opened up a lot for me to revist this part and reflect on.

    dhṛitarāśhtra is torn between two worlds turns to sanjaya who is always in equanimity. Sanjaya is the one that interest me the most. In Mahabharat Sanjaya is always neutral, he has all good qualties but he is equal to all. Sanjaya is given divya chaksu, divine vision, prasade. Divya Chaksu also opens in Arupa Jhana in abhidhamma also divine hearing , same in the Mahayana states. Sanjaya here is entering sushupti, prajna, bardo, arupa, mahayana middle way,
    majjhima nikaya formless realm, seeing and hearing with supra mental abilities the divine song between Sri Krsna and and Arjuna, without awareness of jagrat and svapna. The first 14 verse are very interesting until he meets Krsna in the sound of conch, nada brahma, he heard the divine sound or Sri Krsna's conch, in sushupti state. Sanjaya is like the external Guru who is connected to internal Guru.

    I have thought so many ways to write it but will leave it there, and just share as passing thoughts on Bhagavad Gita. It opens up a lot, all texts are in prajna, prajna state chitta knows of Atma, prajna removes advidya, prajna is medium of Brahman I noticed the same thing in Patanjali. All texts somehow describe that normal jagrat and svapna is not present All Sutras I read start with Om or Uvacha, Uvacha is Guru Vak, Guru Vak is prajna, experienced in Sushupti, mind and sense consciousness suspended, guru vak is turiya para vak, there will be some way to explain that whats being said is prajna, transcendent wisdom and knowledge, beyond all mundane concepts and ideas.

    I had a bit of unusual experience recently, with some staunch Adavita Vedanta practitioners on their understanding of Samadhi in Advaita. Sticking ardently that Sushupti as deep sleep and ignorance, dream as mind night times dreams and jagrat as the waking normal state, when I saw that Sushupti was related to lokas and yigas a couple of years back and then later fitted it in with arupa jhana and mahayana it helped the understanding of texts and vedanta much better. The reason and the cause for this is what I would consider as prasade, or fruit of sadhana, something beyond the mind gives right jnana. From every angle I look at over every span of experience, teaching or whatever I find it gains much more support and strength.

    Prajna state is what the conditioned being aims at, this involves the cultivation of samadhi, its part of the evolution both in the less stage of accumulating merits, cultivating sattva and balancing the mind by owns sadhana, this in itself is hard work and requires support for most, good sangha, good attitude to texts and study devotion, inner courage and strength.

    Self realization is not easy or cheap like one can just skip over samadhi and just focus directly on the Atma. Atma is within all ways to approach him. In Gita Krsna says that everyone who attempts to find him is udarah magnanimous, dear to him. I have nothing against Advaita of Adi Shankara or his followers, I havent given myself a label of what I am, I would consider Adi Sankara a Guru and He is fully Shiva, its about translations, I am just a seeker, a learner who is discovering whats lost, what ever helps me find is good enough, I am am just learning and am clumsy in many ways, but I dont understand why they are all saying sushutpi is useless deep sleep and Adi Shankara dismissed Samadhi as ultimately useless. This is what they are saying, they are from Sringeri, I was so suprised. Sushupti is where we hear veda in divine way. It purifies and retrains the chitta, it brings success to the sadhaka, it still may take time, the individual yukta is given by universal guru in form of vak in sushputi, samadhi brings together inner compounds that help chitta remember the Atma without this mind and sense consciousness by its own power cannot jump straight to knowing Atma, middle way is wisdom, it retrains the chitta to see clearly Atma.

    dhṛitarāśhtra is already starting his inner journey also. and Sanjaya is given straight away by Sri Krsna Divine Vision. dhṛitarāśhtra is at his end, deep down he already knows that defeat is just a matter of time. This is important for stages, sometimes one can hit rock bottom, or we find mind senses and intellect just dont have enough power by themselves, many meanings to it and by that sincere frustration and giving up on all things prasade comes.

    When I look at older translations into English of the texts and how they were spoken about and maintained, two things always comes up which I could never quite get my head around or accept. One is Monotheism and the other is the very and often damging way that Sushupti, sunya, middle state is spoken about. Ok if you are Brahm Jnani Avadhuta one can see the independent Atma who does not need samadhi or anything to support its own self existence, fair enough. It cant be explained directly, it needs a medium. To know Atma one has to go to sleep in one way or another from sense Jagrat chetana consciousness and Svapna Mind consciousness. Mind when in normal deep sleep is just Jagrat and Svapna resting, it is not sushupti. Its normal unconscious sleep. Svapna is our awakened normal state, it can condition by avidya or trained and reconditioned by vidya, Svapna can also have swarupa lakshanam, jagrat senses can be purified.

    I am only saying things from how its translated and seen mostly in English speaking circles of Vedanta, which is an international global group.

    I am not saying all Advaita Sampradaya is like this, I have some friends from Sringeri and they dont think like this and also says its a problem.

    As a passing comment I do think that the understanding of samadhi and the necessity for sushupti and sthitha prajna and not this intellectual classifications of the Atma is more healthy.

    Ground work is best, building right foundations is the best knowledge of atma meaning direct experience where all avidya is removed and highest blessing comes in its own time and will be known without any mistake. I think it ends in simplicity and love and if the human gets full realization of Atma he is supra~mundane human being but also full human being and transcendent at the same time. Not ordinary, rarely found. I know more mature advaitist do not think like this, but it does seem to be a problem, of translation. Its just an observation.

    sorry for large caps, it helps me see the screen and type words better.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 24 June 2018 at 04:59 AM.

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