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Thread: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

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    Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    Hi All

    A few questions:

    1) Does anyone know any abstract from Itihaas where it mentions a marriage between a Manushya and a Daitya, or a Devta and a Daitya (either way, but opposite genders of course)?

    2) In today's world is it possible for a vegetarian/vegan to marry a non-vegetarian and still be able to keep up with his or her spiritual practise?

    3) Can non-vegetarianism and spirituality go hand in hand? Even in non-vegetarians there are people who eat beef and there are non-vegetarians that don't.

    4) Through some searching I have come to know that Pandavas were meat eating people, Bheem definitely was. Was this not against spiritual practises back then?

    5) In Ramayana right before Sita Haran, Sita Mata tells Shri Ram to get her the Swarn Mrig (Golden Deer), for she wants to make an Aasann (seating cloth) for Shri Ram's meditation practise. I am very perplexed how can that be? All avatars take birth to educate mankind about how to lead a righteous life, so how can there be animal killing in such an education? I know it wasn't a real golden deer, but that's not the point, the point in question is that does it conclude that killing of animals for human consumption, not only for food, was fine...??

    6) Is cruelty against an animal any less of a paap (sin) as compared to a wrong doing (physical or emotional) against a human being?

    I am really curious about all this. Thanks in advance.

    Regards

    BhaktiSevak
    OM

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    Re: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    Namaste,

    I will take a stab at the first three questions. The rest three are pretty specific and my answer won't do justice.

    1. There are many instances in itihaas where such marriage occurred. The one that comes to mind is Ravana's parents, father, a rishi, human, mother from rakshas’lineage.

    2. Yes it is definitely possible. Speaking from personal experience.

    3. Non-vegetarianism and spirituality definitely can go hand in hand to a point where the seeker's practice evolves and he/she sees no value in continuing with non-vegetarian diet. The change should happen and does happen automatically when ready. Don't force it.

    A general comment about meat eating in Hinduism. Meat eating is not directly prohibited in any scripture that I am aware of. Many hindus eat meat, however, once you are on a spiritual path you realize the absurdity of especially when alternatives are around. That said several sects have strict guidelines about this and only recommend vegetarian diet while some others allow meat eating. So I would say it depends on your svabhava and spiritual progress.
    satay

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    Re: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    Namaste Bhaktiseva

    In Ramayana right before Sita Haran, Sita Mata tells Shri Ram to get her the Swarn Mrig (Golden Deer), for she wants to make an Aasann (seating cloth) for Shri Ram's meditation practise. I am very perplexed how can that be? All avatars take birth to educate mankind about how to lead a righteous life, so how can there be animal killing in such an education? I know it wasn't a real golden deer, but that's not the point, the point in question is that does it conclude that killing of animals for human consumption, not only for food, was fine...??
    Personally I would abandon all translation that say that Sri Ram was eating meat and especially this story. Look around for more esoteric sources.

    I was listening to Richard Francis Gombrich today and he was talking about Buddha in Ancient India and how Brahmins were sacrificing animals, I have some more details in books on the inner essence of yajna but will take me time to find them and post them, Richard Francis Gombrich is everything that is wrong with modern scholarship. And so is anyone else that gives mundane translations to the profound essences of lilas.


    As Satay says anyone can do do spiritual practice no barriers, and over time the person will gradually give up whats not beneficial.

    1) Does anyone know any abstract from Itihaas where it mentions a marriage between a Manushya and a Daitya, or a Devta and a Daitya (either way, but opposite genders of course)?
    Usually marriage will be some type of union in the inner cosmos in states of samadhi. So jeep trying to seek out the esoteric even better to stick with practices and purify the mind and sense consciousness and esoteric wisdom will come naturally with all that is studied.

    Pandavas are the divine senses of the Jivanmukta where Krsns is the doer. All written texts and maps manuals of consciousness. If you want to go via the book route then its better to arrange your studies on learning the esoteric values or inner values beyond outward verification with mind and sense consciousness.

    Hare Krsna

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    Re: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    Namaste BhaktiSevak

    1) Does anyone know any abstract from Itihaas where it mentions a marriage between a Manushya and a Daitya, or a Devta and a Daitya (either way, but opposite genders of course)?
    Manushya and daitya yes, but devta and daitya and manushya and devta I do not remember.

    2) In today's world is it possible for a vegetarian/vegan to marry a non-vegetarian and still be able to keep up with his or her spiritual practise?
    I say yes. Don’t bother about what your partner does.

    3) Can non-vegetarianism and spirituality go hand in hand? Even in non-vegetarians there are people who eat beef and there are non-vegetarians that don't.
    4) Through some searching I have come to know that Pandavas were meat eating people, Bheem definitely was. Was this not against spiritual practises back then?
    There are many stories in mythology about great souls eating meat. The one I like most is the story of Pakkanar.
    Pakkanar was not encouraging or even condoning the killing of animals, for food or for other reasons. His lesson was about what we consider sacred and profane, shubha and ashubha, about what we consider good and bad. Everything in the universe is permeated by God, and there is nothing but God in the universe, say the Upanishads: ishavasyam idam sarvam. Everything is equally sacred for the wise man who has eyes to see.
    Read the complete story here
    http://innertraditions.blogspot.com/2009/10/masters-who-wear-masks-3-pakkanar.html

    5) In Ramayana right before Sita Haran, Sita Mata tells Shri Ram to get her the Swarn Mrig (Golden Deer), for she wants to make an Aasann (seating cloth) for Shri Ram's meditation practise. I am very perplexed how can that be? All avatars take birth to educate mankind about how to lead a righteous life, so how can there be animal killing in such an education? I know it wasn't a real golden deer, but that's not the point, the point in question is that does it conclude that killing of animals for human consumption, not only for food, was fine...??
    In nearly every story there are hunters who kill animals. Nowadays it is interpreted as defeating the animalistic tendencies, the brute in us. Myths are encrypted, we lost the ability to decrypt them.
    We have to read the Ramayana in context. The previous chapter has the title ‚Maricha transformed‘, next chapter ‚The wondrous deer‘. Read the complete translation of this chapter from the original by R. T. H. Griffith, there is a ‚but if‘.
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rama/ry241.htm
    Lakshmana: Stay, for the wondrous deer we see The fiend Maricha's self may be.
    Sita: And when our woodland life is o'er, And we enjoy our realm once more, The wondrous animal will grace The chambers of my dwelling-place, And a dear treasure will it be To Bharat and the queens and me, And all with rapture and amaze Upon its heavenly form will gaze. But if the beauteous deer, pursued, Thine arts to take it still elude, Strike it, O chieftain, and the akin Will be a treasure, laid within.

    6) Is cruelty against an animal any less of a paap (sin) as compared to a wrong doing (physical or emotional) against a human being?
    For me every creature is equal. The insect and the human both have their duty on this planet.

    I ask myself more the less the same questions … but in parallel I am sure that all is right as it is. No creature can act against the cosmic will. Why did this cosmic will divide time into four descending yugas? We must not forget that we are in Kali Yuga.

    Pranam
    Dance with Shiva - live with Shiva - merge with Shiva

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    Re: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    I respect everyone's opinion, however...

    I see all those videos from PETA, Mercy for Animals, Compassion Over killing and other animal activists, and films like Forks Over Knives, Cowspiracy, Earthlings, Dominion, etc. and my heart fails to accept how such a torture of animals is acceptable. Has anyone seen what those sentient beings have to go through? If one wants to know what hell must be like, one must watch these videos and films. There is no painless killing there. Nearly all the meat that is available in the markets comes from animal farms. Every moment of their life is full of fear, pain and suffering. It's all for taste, and nothing else but taste.
    Last edited by BhaktiSevak; 24 August 2018 at 01:50 AM.
    OM

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    Re: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Namaste Bhaktiseva
    Personally I would abandon all translation that say that Sri Ram was eating meat and especially this story. Look around for more esoteric sources.
    Hare Krsna
    Dear markandeya 108 dasa, I was referring to Ramananda Sagar's Ramayan. What esoteric sources are you referring to? ISKCON print material? Also, I never said 'eating'. I said "she wants to make an Aasann (seating cloth) for Shri Ram's meditation practise"


    Regards
    OM

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    Re: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    Dear BhaktiSevak

    I just remembered four legends regarding your question no 6) Is cruelty against an animal any less of a paap (sin) as compared to a wrong doing (physical or emotional) against a human being?


    Dhritarashtra – born blind, lost 100 sons
    In his earlier life he cut out a swan‘s eyes and killed the swan’s 100 cygnets.
    He threw a burning net over a tree and caused the death of 100 birds. A few were able to fly away, but were blinded due to the heat.
    Gandhari – lived a blind life, lost 100 sons
    In her earlier life she smashed 100 eggs of a bird.
    She cooked rice and poured the hot water out the door, 100 eggs of an insect were destroyed.

    Pranam
    Dance with Shiva - live with Shiva - merge with Shiva

  8. #8

    Re: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    Namaste Bhaktisevaka

    Dear markandeya 108 dasa, I was referring to Ramananda Sagar's Ramayan. What esoteric sources are you referring to? ISKCON print material? Also, I never said 'eating'. I said "she wants to make an Aasann (seating cloth) for Shri Ram's meditation practise"


    Regards
    I havent read Ramananda Sagar's Ramayan or the ISKCON version so I cant comment, i read Ramayana by Kamala Subramaniam some years back, then its been a steady understanding from various sources which is still an ongoing progress.

    You didnt mention eating meat in this post but it was in another about Bhima so I grouped the animal sacrifice and meat eating comment together, but there are translation and commentaries like this mostly promoted by Zakir Naik from early translations which sparked several debates, not just about eating meet or hunting but making the subtle into fixed historical accounts. When there is another way to understand them, which seems to be inline with the original intent.

    One good thing about these types of debates it creates a reaction, then there is counter commentary, this is usually from the followers of the tradition and they then share their insights and acts as a real commentary, they help expain the meaning behind the words and texts from experience and true memory, this is where some insights can be found which build up a better mental image to work with. Then more opens up and that improves the understanding of the original story much better, so there is a right way to unpack the more esoteric meaning.

    I will share this due to it being most fresh in my mind, as I cant find the other sources so easily at the moment on how the subtle or more esoteric meaning is concealed within the stories. I ownt comment on this portion of ramayana until I refresh my memory properly.

    When Gotama the Buddha was seeking enlightenment he decided to do one great tapasya, to completely cut himself off from external dependent supports, even the devatas he renounced to give him pranic food to maintain trance, he was pushing the boat right out and giving up all dharmas. This often gets known as the time he fasted.

    When he was close to death due to starving himself of anything external he was fatigued and he collapsed and and a young woman from the local village gave him some milk rice, his fellow 5 ascetics abandoned him. After this renewed strength he took the bowl that had sweet rice milk and put it into the stream, the bowl was golden and it flowed up stream, Siddharta took this as a sign and then in 7 weeks he attained his enlightenment and became Buddha.


    The outside story is there for anyone to read in books by different authors, but he esoteric meaning is one. He renounced and denied all outward going sense and mind conscious and the young women who gave him the milk was a form of devi, rewarding him it was prasade, this was an empowerment, the golden bowl going upstream would be the kundalini rising, 7 weeks would be him going up the 7 lokas connected to the seven chakras. The five ascetics who abandoned him were his 5 senses that he he was controlling in the yoga systems of dhyana, sense consciousness totally separated from this experience. Most scholars wont agree to these types of translations, they are stuck on the outward historical accounts and in their own limitation.

    The same type of esoteric meaning will be the lila of Ramayana and mahabaharat and all the cantos of the puranas, I am just using my phone and to get better sources will take me time to search on google, so im just reply off the top of my head best way I can.

    I read some good comments by ram devotees on quora about these things and others related to animal sacrifice in the vedas, they were inner yagna, lila that are happening in shusupti or yogic sleep, externalized and blinded by their own limitation and lack of developed perception, its stuck on the outward perception.


    This came to mind as another example

    pravargya rite~~~a ceremony introductory to the Soma- sacrifice (at which fresh milk is poured into a heated vessel called, mahā-vīra-or gharma-,or into boiling ghee)
    Symbolism of the words in pravargya~~excerpt from Lights on Upanishads.
    We are not concerned with the further details of the pravargya rite, but what has been stated is necessary and sufficient to enable us to understand the significance of the ritual act of which the knowledge of madhu is an important limb. Light is thrown on the symbolic character by the suggestive names of the substance that is cooked, of what is poured into it and the vessel in which the preparation takes place.
    In the system of Vedic symbolism, gharma is brilliant heat, it is a kindred of ghrta and ghrni, all of the same family meaning " to shine, to burn", payas is milk, luminous yield of the Cow of Light, mahavira, the earthen vessel, is the human body of great heroic mettle. Now the sacrificer, the human soul, after his consecration for the performance of the Soma sacrifice which is the offering of all one's experiences and the delight of existence to the Gods ( Devas) , the Universal Powers of the Supreme Godhead, starts with an act by which the nourishing rays of Light, the yield of the luminous Cow, enter into the vessel of human body of heroic strength for the sustenance and completion of the sustenance that is cooked.
    It is the brilliant heat of tapas held in the human vessel that is trained, kept under control and so purified and disciplined by the rigours of tapasya, mahavirya-samskara, that it can hold the healthy and brilliant heart of the substances of being to be offered to the Gods. To make the process of preparation pleasant and intelligible, more and more of the soothing luminous rays of knowledge enter the course of the sadhana at work in the body.
    This is still an introductory stage, when the human souls with disciplined life and mind prepares for the ultimate goal, needs the help of the higher powers, and has consecrated itself for offering it's all to the Gods. This indeed requires a heroic strength, for the soul giving of itself is not a mental offering done in a metaphysical manner, it is a felt abandoning of itself, its strength and knowledge and material lodgement to the care and joy of the Gods.
    For such a consummation aimed at, the soul whose embodiment is feeble is not competent to aspire and receive what it gets in response, for it will break, cannot hold the gifts of the Gods in their turn. For, as it is stated in a different connection by the seer Pavitra, "He taste not that Delight who is unripe and whose body has not suffered in the heat of the fire, they alone are able to bear that and enjoy who has been prepared by the flame."


    This micro and subtle world we have to work out our self by our own reflection and practice, it then bridges with the texts and the stroies and the co depend and reflect in consciousness and gradual awareness of the Absolute.

    The texts helps us to build up a image in the mind and a way to practice to internalize them in the process of yoga, the result is not ours.

    Same as with cosmology, they are maps of the inner conscious or the subtle world, that acts as medium of purification and also how the Absolute works in the lokas or realms of conscious images related to being.

    Something like this Its the part that keeps me interested anyway


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    Re: Marriage between Manushyas, Devtas, and Daityas

    You had a lot of questions, BhaktiSevak, but it seems now they are all reduced to one topic - Sita wants to make an Aasann (seating cloth) for Shri Ram's meditation practise - which is NOT written like this in the original Ramayana (to which I provided the link in one of my previous posts). It is a fictional idea of somebody.

    Don’t forget this deer is not just a deer it is Maricha. Thus the esoteric meaning may be different to killing a ‚regular‘ deer.

    The deer (mriga) always appears in mytholgy, in astrology we find Mrigashira Nakshatra.

    Thus, you first have to find out the esoteric meaning of the deer before you can go into Ramayana.

    Hatha Yoga Pradipika and the deer:

    Nādoantarangghasārangghabandhane vāghurāyate
    Antarangghakurangghasya vadhe vyādhāyateapi cha
    Nada is the snare for catching the mind; and, when it is caught like a deer, it can be killed also like it.

    Ghantādinādasaktastabdhāntahkaranaharinasya
    Praharanamapi sukaram syāchcharasandhānapravīnaśchet
    The antahkarana (mind), like a deer, becomes absorbed and motionless on hearing the sound of hells, etc.; and
    then it is very easy for an expert archer to kill it.

    Anyhow - do not mix Ramayana and mythology with today's suffering of the animals. There is definitely no connection.

    And last but not least … Shiva Mahayogi is sitting on a tiger skin - who killed the tiger?

    Pranam
    Dance with Shiva - live with Shiva - merge with Shiva

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