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Thread: A profound experience of THAT

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    A profound experience of THAT - Part 1

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,
    I have had the good fortune to be introduced to a person that had a profound experience of turiya ( the 4th). his lasted for 4 months (7x24). I carried on a conversation with him for a bit and thought to share this with you. As a sadhu myself, his words rang true. Yet coming from his perspective and experience it was quite profound.

    Let me share with you one part of this conversation. If you have interest I will post the other conversations for your review and assessment and in hopes of your appreciation of his experience. Please poke around, ask questions as you see fit.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    I met Manuel during normal discussions on Sanatana dharama. One question let to another, and ended up on one's experiences. Manuel, up to this point of commuicating with him for several months, never brought this up, bragged, etc . He was ( and is) very humble about his experience and the initial experince.

    He explained the following:

    It happened suddenly, I was driving back home when I remembered the I Am That, by Nisargadatta, and without advice I was "THERE". I realized that the book was written just for me, but not me Manuel, but for "me" the non dual reality. There are no others, and there is no "I".

    I asked him if he had any guidance/advice for an aspirant that wished to experience this himself/herself, he said the following:

    Since I didn't reach the peace associated to THAT I would refrain myself as for giving any guidance. Still, this would be my best: Be attentive to the moment. Don't forget that you are being attentive. Be even more attentive when you realize you are being attentive. Attention is the key.

    I then asked, what about the individual that is looking for a 'smooth ride'? to THAT. That is, a progressive march to Brahman, to turiya.

    he said,

    Be ready to see something that goes well beyond anything you can imagine. One thing is to think about non duality, and another, VERY DIFFERENT is to actually see it. I would say that its like living without sight for all your life and then, because an advance treatment, begin to see for the first time. Whatever you thought it was going to be the "light" it is not!


    more if there is interest,
    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 29 November 2007 at 06:20 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2

    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
    Since I didn't reach the peace associated to THAT I would refrain myself as for giving any guidance.
    What does he exactly means in this sentence ??
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    What does he exactly means in this sentence ??
    Namaste sm78,

    A very good question that I have discussed with him... Manuel had a bumpy ride as I understand it. His experience of THAT, he was suddenly THAT. It was such a stark contrast to his every day world that it shook him.

    This taught me a great lesson to listen, read , talk of Brahman to prepare oneself for this contrast... We talk of it yet really have not tasted it ( only in seconds or a minute). Consider full emersion into that in a millisecond and now there is no-thing but IT, there is no differentation, there is no boundry , there is only THAT all the time -wake-dream-sleep, its all THAT, everything perceived is THAT. For Manuel , this was pure contrast from his daily life and it obviously shook him.

    This has been discussed by my teacher that this contrast takes some getting use to. Manuel was on his own, no guru, just himself. This was his experience. I am sure for every sadhu the experience must be different. This was his experience.

    Also - Manuel told me he was not much for studying... so these concepts on contrast was anew. His reference point was I Am That, by Nisargadatta which I have read.

    As he said - "One thing is to think about non duality, and another, VERY DIFFERENT is to actually see it"

    I will post another string on this, after any other questions on this first installment are offered.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 29 November 2007 at 06:24 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4

    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    This taught me a great lesson to listen, read , talk of Brahman to prepare oneself for this contrast...
    Namaste Yajvan,

    You rightly point out the importance of shravana & manana the first 2 limbs of the classical vedantic jnana yoga.

    If one wants further insight into this topic, one may go through the following post in Kamakotimandali by Sri Harshanandanatha ~ one of the great teachers (a young man actually) of Sri Vidya, I follow around in this internet (because of clarity in his writings and the exalted sampraday he belongs to).

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kamako...i/message/1225
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Namaste,

    PART II of A profound experience of THAT

    Manuel's conversation continues, he says:

    "All I wanted, for all my life, was to understand what was the world and what we were doing here. This is, of course, up to that moment, in which I really didnt want to know anything else. There were nothing else to know. I saw that all "knowledge" is a mental illusion, merely tricks with words, without any content"

    "Now, regarding your specific question [yajvan]. Yes. THAT was there all the time, but again, words can't really grasp it. You are in a completely different state. Waking life, Dreaming and Deep Sleep are just "experiences" that happen, and "something" was there, all the time, watching. It was not me...can be called Brahman??


    Manuel refers to his postion affer experiencing THAT for 4 months

    I still feel that I can go "there" if I want , sometimes, discussing about philosophy or just "entering the moment" Im almost there, for a few moments, but for now Im happy living my life..."

    I [yajvan] mention this to Manuel

    Manuel, On the way to God Consciousness or Bhagavat Chetana, there are certain levels of experience and consciousness the aspirant (sadhu) will experience. One initial experience is called naishkarmyam, a quality of non-attachment is experienced, where the doer enjoys freedom and the non-binding influence of actions.
    This naishkarmyam experience or Self-consciousness but not yet God Consciousness or Bhagavat Chetana is not overshadowed by any other state of consciousness e.g. waking dreaming or sleep, your 4 month experience.

    Manuel says,
    "I understand. Thank you for bringing this explanations with you. I appreciate them."

    I suggest the following:
    Manuel, Its my humble opinion, your 4 month experience was naishkarmyam; a valid, good experience, that may have been overwhelming, yet given to you for a reason (this only you may know).

    Manuel Responds,
    "You could be right. As an occidental with poor knowledge on eastern traditions, and most importantly, poor understanding in eastern philosophical concepts, I felt for many years that I have been in the wrong place to experience THAT."

    PART III later, after any comments or questions HDF wishes to post.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Namaste Yajvan.

    1. Is your friend Manuel's experience of turiya the result of sAdhanA? It is generally said that the body must be tuned for such experiences by shravaNa, manana, nididhyAsana. Could such an experience be obtained by the legacy of past satkarma in the absence of sAdhAna?

    2. If as you say his continued experience of 4 months is naishkarmyam, a prelude to experience of Brahman, is there any way to know when the real experience can happen?

    3. The fearless freedom obtained from dawn of wisdom and the resultant vairAgya is great indeed! Being at this stage, what would a seeker do to retain that freedom and obtain the experiece of turiya whenever he wants and then enter into the state of jivanmukta where the state is permanent?

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    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Yajvan.

    1. Is your friend Manuel's experience of turiya the result of sAdhanA? It is generally said that the body must be tuned for such experiences by shravaNa, manana, nididhyAsana. Could such an experience be obtained by the legacy of past satkarma in the absence of sAdhAna?

    2. If as you say his continued experience of 4 months is naishkarmyam, a prelude to experience of Brahman, is there any way to know when the real experience can happen?

    3. The fearless freedom obtained from dawn of wisdom and the resultant vairAgya is great indeed! Being at this stage, what would a seeker do to retain that freedom and obtain the experiece of turiya whenever he wants and then enter into the state of jivanmukta where the state is permanent?
    Namaste saidevo,
    very reasonable questions...let me try and address them as Manuel addressed them for me ( I will also add another post/conversation as
    Manuel takes me deeper into his experience):

    1. On Sadhana

    I asked Manuel about his sadhana.
    ... do you meditate?

    "Nope. I used to. Constantly, I tried to meditate during every wakinig moment. I tried to meditate even in dreams (Im a lucid dreamer). I tried to meditate meditating. I would say that the main reason I become aware is because I have learned to focus my consciousness so intensely in the Here and Now."

    2. is there any way to know when the real experience can happen?

    For Manuel - it was Brahman, as there was no inner or outter for him,
    he said:
    "There were NO OTHERS, there were no objects and most importantly no subject at all. You no longer exist, and what is left is not the world either. Its impossible for somebody else to be aware, because YOU ARE AWARENESS"


    3. The fearless freedom obtained from dawn of wisdom and the resultant vairAgya is great indeed! Being at this stage, what would a seeker do to retain that freedom and obtain the experiece of turiya.


    This part I cannot answer, as Manuel could not either. This fearless state was not his experience... I tried to undersrtand this the most and asked questions here. Manuel just did not 'settle' into this condition. Why ? I do not know. Even in the Upanishads, there is a discussion of Purusa in the beginning experiencing some fear; this subsided for Purusa, yet for Manuel this dis-comfort, this peace due to the contrast was immense.


    I then closed this particular conversation with a quote.

    I leave you with one of this ( as we were discussing Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj] :To know the world you forget the SELF, to know the SELF you forget the world.

    he said:
    "Thank you for the quote. I value Nisargadatta more than any other teacher. He doesn't give space to concepts or ideas, he points directly to THAT all the time." Thank you also for allowing to express/remember what is like to be/see THAT."



    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8

    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    I suggest the following:
    Manuel, Its my humble opinion, your 4 month experience was naishkarmyam; a valid, good experience, that may have been overwhelming, yet given to you for a reason (this only you may know).
    I was thinking of the same. What Manuel seems to be experiencing also mentioned by Sivaya Subramaniyaswami as the 1st state of the possible 7 states of superconciousness each progressively superior. I think it was his personal way of pointing our the sapta jnana bhumi's.

    But the 'naishkarmyam' experience, especially for such a long duration should be enough to bring a permanent change in the person if he so desires.

    In shaktibad language, manuel's experience (as it seems to me) is somewhere between preliminary sunya bhava and vishwa rupa darshan. vishwa rupa darshan is always overwhelming and does not quench the thirst of peace we all seek (recall Arjuna's experience). Manuel is saying the same thing...it was overwhelming and it did not bring forth the peace to remain established in it. In language of the granthi's or knots of Ignorance this is the experience of the brahma granthi or mind stuff as such.

    It will be interesting to see if manuel's experience did bring forth any permanent change in his this life ~ his journey can provide a practical pointer to the necessity of Guru in Sanatana Dharma.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste sm78, saideva (et.al)

    Here is another piece of this experience:

    Now for Manuel, it was abrupt, and astounding, overwhelming experience to go from 0 to 100 mph in a hear beat [ my metaphor, not his]. It caught him off-guard and was not prepared for such contrast. This was so profound, that smiles did not come to him

    He said, Since I didn't reach the peace associated to THAT I would refrain myself as for giving any guidance. As we write, he is now settled into his existing 'existence', he said 'I am happy being a human'. The experience was that profound , that different i.e. the experience of non-dual reality.

    What did he experience? the 'Impersonal Being' , THAT. What happens (as my teachers have given me this understanding and I have written about this before), the SELF needs to be experienced as completely separate from activity. The Divine needs to be distinct and unattached as pure consciousness , in the beginning of this unfoldment.

    This non-attached experience is naishkarmyam. This comes from non-dual Vedanta philosophy , some call it the 'auxiliary to liberation'.

    For Manuel, he went from absorbed in action to non-action, unattached in a heartbeat. Now, for me if one is not prepared for this, the first thing that comes to mind is what's this... what is this THAT?

    Manuel's note to me, 'It is so wonderful to find someone who can appreciate it. Most people around me would only think that I was going crazy.'

    This tells me prepare, understand this, have compassion, learn what others have experienced and what the great seer's have instructed and cognized.

    Its said one greatest 'deliverables' ( can't find a sweeter word for this) the guru brings to the student is when one has this experience, s/he is there to deliver and say "tat tvam asi" Thou art THAT, all this is THAT.

    May we all be in that postion to receive His Grace and the grace of a guru/yogi/jivanmuki that brings this instruction.

    I am the Self, O Gudakesa (or one who has conquered the darkness of sleep ~ ignorance)seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. - Krsna to Arjuna, Bhagavad-gita

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 06 June 2007 at 09:21 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #10
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    Re: A profound experience of THAT

    Namaste Yajvan.

    Thanks for your helpful answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan
    1. I would say that the main reason I become aware is because I have learned to focus my consciousness so intensely in the Here and Now.

    2. I tried to meditate even in dreams (Im a lucid dreamer).
    -- Manuel
    1. Perhaps herein lies a valuable tip for the seekers. The future is only conceptual, the past is only memorial. Only the present is real. This here and now is the contextual reality to live with and live for. This would mean exercising utmost shraddhA in every little thing we do--all our deed, word (if any), thought and awareness focussed on it.

    2. A lucid dreamer, in my limited familiarity with the concept, can keep continuity of consciousness from the waking state to the dreaming state as he falls asleep and dreams. Using that control of consciousness, he can direct his activities in the dreams. This involves conscious astral travel to wherever the person desires. For example, with control of consciousness in the waking and dreaming states, I can visit any temple and even enter the sanctum and offer worship at my leisure in my astral form, and then bring back the memories without dilution to the physical brain.

    The ability to control consciousness in dreams can be used in so many other ways, specially for serving the humanity. One can offer solace in dreams for an ailing friend or relative, can teach a person and can seek guidance from one's guru. Doctors can learn and use this ability in their healing services much more effectively.

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