A thought on religion and dharma

[Viraja]

Namaste,

The other day sometime back, a thought occurred to me.

That man is told that as he gets better spiritually, his enjoyment factor in life would improve... (sins diminish, he becomes good).

But consider this, the truly enlightened DO NOT cherish life and its enjoyments as much as a bonded soul! He cares not for the mundane offerings of life.

Therefore, it appears to me that bonded that we mostly are, our enjoyment of life is so much better...

A fully realized soul has no yearnings, he has no purpose on planet earth.

It also appears to me, a certain amount of fine balance is needed between the bonded quotient and the realized quotient. The realized quotient, so that he can tread the righteous path and earn a lasting good name and fame, and all goodness to come, and the bonded quotient, so that he can enjoy life... at last!

I'm particularly writing this to address the issue of self-denial of pleasures that is stressed in religion - we negate this and that, but to what end? At the end, we only rise up to the level where rewards are meaningless to us.

May be, I think, that is why 'living to the moment' is a better choice. That is, instead of denying yourself or letting go of your instincts, express them. This may be a more rewarding experience and out of karma, will actually lead you faster across ascension spiritually.

Am I being 'anti-Hindu'?

Many thanks for reading.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Deleted and moved

[Viraja]

Nice, MD ji. Yes, many elderly also do tough parikramas... also wondered how they keep going like that.

Thanks for the kind reply. Although you have answered my Sholingur thread here....

It was nice to read about some of your experiences, thanks for sharing them.

[Viraja]

*I am just taking liberty to note here that I have written a PM to Anirudh ji of this forum. Not sure if he visits / signs-in frequently here, so just notifying him through here.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste Viraja Ji,

I moved the post to the right place.

This is a very important question and something that I think about. It may depend on what we call enjoyment it can be a loaded word and how the wise see it and what their definition of true happiness is and enjoying or being happy and satisfied in life. In B Gita not to be to much by the book , when the senses touch the objects of the sense sparsha enjoyment is born, so there is no denial that enjoyment is part of experience of life but that enjoyment soon becomes source of dukkha, dukkha is more complex than just suffering and the wisdom to overcome it is not just one of rejecting it or even wanting to being free from it whilst one still has a body, Dukkha main cause is tanha or wanting desiring and craving and Raga attachment. We have five senses and we cant escape that, we cant cut out our eyes or just eat dry bread and then be considered as transcending suffering and spiritually happy. When we want attach and crave for something it changes the quality of mind, things become more unsettled and awareness is lost, its a limitation and entrapment and not even really living in the present moment because its not allowing what can unfold to unfold as fresh and new because of attachment and desiring whats not even there.

I think there is a far to much envy in some of the religious peoples mind, they seem to hate wealth or deny any type of human existence that makes one happy, if one is happy they can deny its just temporary, that would only ruin the moment. There is emphasis on why Dukkha exists and how sukkha also has causes and the wisdom to live with balance an understanding, true renunciation starts when one has that higher taste that is not dependant or attached to the the world, its not rejecting the world, maybe it is embracing the world more.

I think enjoyment and being happy but also accepting the limitations and inherent nature of dukkha within life brings peace and wisdom ultimately.

Not to disagree with you but there are a couple of things you said that is also a common misconception about the Enlightened.

But consider this, the truly enlightened DO NOT cherish life and its enjoyments

In one sense it is right that there is no seeking to fullfill what most people deem as the source of happiness, but I would not say that they do not Cherish life, it is the very source of life that is most Cherished and preserved for all beings at the core of the Enlightened teaching, maybe you did not mean it that way but there is the wrong type of conception in many places of what renunciation is.

Im not debating

Therefore, it appears to me that bonded that we mostly are, our enjoyment of life is so much better

When the causes of dukkha are slowly removed its naturally replaced with higher states of mind, happiness and distress is all within the mind, one may seemingly be happy on the outside but inside maybe different. Just look at how many rich and famous entertainers personal lives are often a mess, but look great on the big screen.

A fully realized soul has no yearnings, he has no purpose on planet earth

Does desirelessness mean total inactivity and disinterests in the world, does the Enlightened have no purpose, their purpose is spontaneous, uplifting all those around them in whatever way, its automatic without effort. Also it seems that the sense of wonder increases.

I get what your saying about a certain type of religious person and teaching that has evolved about denial of everything in this world. In Theravada tradition the one side of it is that there is only dukkha, birth, ageing and death, attachment to the world is abandoned and even seen in disgust.These teachings while they have elements of truth is rather mundane and does not reflect the spirit of early Buddhism and a lot of those type of teachings are by ascetics and belongs to their order and a good mixture Christian type Guilt mixed in to the teachings. Its in many religious teaching's and is used as a weapon to make people feel guilty or give money to improve happiness for punya, good fortune prosperity and ultimate reward at the end of life.

In terms of practical life I think balance seems to work the best, any type of over indulgence or neglect upsets the balance and quality of life.

[Viraja]

MD ji, great reply from you! What I gain from reading your reply is that, bondage might give us enjoyment of mundane aspects of life, but this bondage condition makes us more prone to sins and sinning... and secondly, yes, it is true what you have stated, a realized soul may have his own purposes in life which might bring him enjoyment and thirdly, that a bonded soul will feel the loss if disappointed for worldly reasons and end in a gloom of sorrow! Really, your reply enriches the thoughts I had. Thank you.

[Believer]

Namaste,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxFA...=RDYxFAKLKu1RA

Pranam.

[Soul of Light]

Namaste all!
I came here after a prolonged time maybe a year..
And I missed you all and the knowledge you have... So good to see you all.
Nice bhajan believer ji.

I read all the replies and they are really enlightening but I am not satisfied yet as my mind isn't still now as it's used to be.

I wanna share my experience and asked you questions as I am really confused regarding this.

I entered in the spiritual world at the age of 14 just a year before joining HDF. I become the devotee of lord Shiva and started loving shiva, I was knowledgeable and mature for my age at that time and experienced many unusual stuffs.. my mind was very clear without a trace of anger, jealousy, lust (little social phobia was there but it was negligible) and all this happened automatically like it meant to be.
My life was not that good in sense of material things. There wasn't any desire for anything (I was yet super happy always). I didn't played like other kids do, didn't hanged out with friends. Seemingly boring life (spirituallity is not responsible for that but yes it was one of other many factors which lead to make me super introvert).
So in that period I was always in ecstacy in the holy feet of lord under his protection.

But in 2016 a big turn came into my life. The seed of desire sprout in my heart and I started wishing that I could live a life others are living. Doing fun, parties, friendships and all the mundane things (they aren't mundane. They are social need and normal and essential things but for me it was mundane at that time)

Now. The things changed. I started moving apart from shiva. As I was little angry on him due to something. So I started to seek material life, now to remain at home was like suffocation for me. I missed the childhood fun but yet I was hoping to live my youth. I thought I only have 2 years. After that it will be difficult to enjoy so I tried my level best to become social.
I fail. I again tried. Things started to happen but suddenly fail. I failed many times. I becomed​ dependent on my best friend and wish that I could spend time with him but he didn't helped me out but worsen the situation. I went into depression and my friend just made it worst.
I was broke out. After some time I becamed social. Now there are many friends I can hang out anywhere with them. (Yet not the one I wished to)
I travelled to many places in my city. Enjoyed a lot.

But now I am changed. The boy who was always in ecstacy 24/7 with pure heart is now sad and all the bad things like anger, jealousy, lust, fear made their placed in me..
Even though the things I wanted started to happen, I didn't felt the pleasure that I got from lord Shiva when I was small.

Now I wish to gain my old position of devotee again. But it's too difficult now. Rightly said, once the downfall of devotee happens it's difficult to rise again.

This was my experience. Sorry if it's long and pardon for English.
Now my questions and observation starts here.
I saw the both sides now and experienced the energies in both the sides. Both are intense but nature felt too different..
If I went to extreme materialistic life it's just like playing in the mud with some fellow friends like you. It's fun, too much fun but yet there isn't feeling of freshness.
Spirituality is like standing on the hill surrounding the beautiful lake with fresh air and joyful mood.
This is my experience. I felt the spiritual energy uplifting.
I was doing nothing to entertain myself when I was spiritual. Just nothing. But yet I was like I am the happiest person in the universe.

Yes I was selfless and in the second phase I becomed selfish.

I am too much confused now also. I can't bring the balance between two. What type of acts God will not like that I will do? Yes. We should not harm others. But what if our thought process becomes impure? God will not like that also right?
I am not able to put in words exactly what I want but please guide me what to do. My inner core wants me to return to where I was..
What's the significance of material life then? If we are selfless then is there chances that we will not enjoy the life others do? Or its something different... more intangible?

In short. Should I try to live material life and live spiritual life after some years or should I surrender everything to shiva and do my karmas for others? Or balance between two (which I can't figure out)?
Sorry for vague words. Hope I will get some light from here
Pranam.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste,

Good to see you back light of soul and thanks for sharing your story. I dont have any answer but one thing that popped into my mind was that time and reflection answers most things, its a bit simplistic as I dont have much typing time.

I have been meaning to reply some more to this thread as its quite an important and practical topic, on how to balance the material and spiritual and start to experience what is our real constitution that is one of being in joy and free from dukkha or dissatisfaction. If we observe ourselves and nature all sentient beings in one form of another are seeking that. I dont have much free time to type. Today this popped up in recommendations so thought to share.

http://www.lakshmanjooacademy.org/al.../#.W-IdP9X7TIU

There are a couple of things that I have learned to accept which helps me. Dukkha exists in life, its just part of it, like if someone has operation and when they come back to consciousness they may feel in pain more than before, they may feel dizzy confused and in anxiety due to the side effects of the medications, i have seen it in others, but when the doctor and others say that its normal to feel like this and it wears off in time, the patient feels better and understand his condition more clear.

Wisdom seems to be what connects that mundane to transcendent, wisdom is also seen and known as the perfect medium of the human to live fully connected to both at the same time.

[Viraja]

Namaste Soul of Light,

First let me give my answer. Then next I will read MD ji's great reply too.

Different people have different understanding of spirituality. What is spirituality to me may not be spirituality to you. But given you have raised the question in this forum, let me say we can all share our opinions and it is up to you to reflect on any or all of them to choose the best course of action for you.

This morning I was listening to a video on Kriya yoga. The presenter who had authored some books on the topic said, spirituality is both surrendering oneself to the so-called destiny as well as forcing his will through on circumstances where he sees the need.

Personally I see that the entire cosmic framework of destiny is loosely orchestrated and not at all a 'close-knit' unbreakable bond. We all succumb to destiny only in otherwise unchangeable attributes and facets of life. Otherwise we do our best to emerge out of it.

I see spirituality as taming mind to see the positive aspects of those unfortunate circumstances, to appreciate all goodness around us and reciprocate it, to bring our own awareness along the standards of a yogi gradually, in a life-long process and so forth.

To that end, mantras, meditation and rituals really do help. They not only create merit (punya) but also have power and potential to elevate the mind.

Therefore, I will urge you to really follow some simple yogic or spiritual practices and increase them gradually.

Secondly, applying practicality to spirituality. You may have read that some profound yogis and bhaktas utterly renounced all material possession. Well, you may do that, if you know for sure you are at the level where you will not pine for them anymore.

But because for majority of us aspirants that level of spirituality is just a fantasy and not a practicality, please focus on cultivating a materialistically good life for you first.

As said, you can bring in a lot of spirituality via help for others, dispassion and simple yogic practices everyday gradually to ascend your consciousness to a higher level.

Good luck!