A thought on religion and dharma

[Soul of Light]

Thank you MD ji and Viraj ji for your enlightening replies
I am getting some clues what I need to do now.. I think this all governs by subtle things like thoughts, mind. I need to control them first and keep them on track.
As MD ji said wisdom and to add to it bhakti.. may help me a lot..
And to become selfless is other positive aspect Viraj ji pointed out. Thanks a lot.
Pranam

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste,

We tend to have fixed ideas on what experience means, but the nature of reality has its own way that we are often unaware of. What popped into my thoughts today was the story of the Chinese farmer told by Alan Watts, the meaning is clear enough. From this it becomes easier to understand what the is meant by being equal in happiness and distress, success and failure and how equanimity breeds wisdom and wisdom becomes the point of clear seeing, both of the phenomenal and transcendent of or the play of shakti and purusha.

In the Buddhist way especially mahayana ,wisdom, the middle way, beyond all extremes is the highest aim for the human being, we evolve through wisdom, and wisdom gives direct vision to the Ultimate reality. This doesnt contradict Vedanta as the Self reveals itself by its Own Power so the jiva in the human condition does not by its ordinary capacity have the right means to jump straight into or know directly transcendence, there is an intermediate state which is first cultivated.

I found many new insights the last few months in 2nd Chapter of Gita.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJShr4VdvxQ

[Viraja]

In the Buddhist way especially mahayana ,wisdom, the middle way, beyond all extremes is the highest aim for the human being, we evolve through wisdom, and wisdom gives direct vision to the Ultimate reality. This doesnt contradict Vedanta as the Self reveals itself by its Own Power so the jiva in the human condition does not by its ordinary capacity have the right means to jump straight into or know directly transcendence, there is an intermediate state which is first cultivated.

I found many new insights the last few months in 2nd Chapter of Gita.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJShr4VdvxQ

Namaste MD ji,

I think your reply is quite profound here. When I started this thread, I wrote in a sort of a funny spirit. It was like, "of what use is too much spirituality?". But now, your replies have elevated the status of this thread to something profound and I'm liking it.

If you don't mind, kindly elaborate on what you have said above.... not sure if I'm following it right.

In simpler terms, can you define what you mean by wisdom being an intermediary state? And how to acquire it? I kind of loosely translated wisdom as 'vairagya', hope you know the term, it means, 'dispassion'. That is, a state of being passionless, almost like 'karma yoga'. Do you mean, the goal of humans is to attain dispassion? And if so, how would that aid in emancipation of the self later on?

Thanks.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste Viraja,

There are a few things that were interesting your initial post, but may have to chip away bit by bit. Two things, firstly whats known as religion in today's world maybe different from Dharma and Rita, briefly put religion is more to do with a collective conscious trying to follow the same codes as a group, often putting pressure and judgement to come to a certain fixed standard, and dharma and rita is understanding reality through ones own code which is universal and all inclusive.

The second one is if the yogi/devotee/Self Realized enjoys or is happy in the world less or more than the person seeking to find satisfaction in the worldly enjoyments of the senses. Most of the this topic fall under preyas and sreyas.

http://kathopanishad.blogspot.com/20...f-shreyas.html

The Tyagi or renounced person finds no joy or pleasure or even the need to seek worldly pleasures, but that does not mean that he is not enjoying his life. As Gita says What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled; and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage, so there is some difference in direction, but the yogi is not extreme, as aversion is the same as attachment.

In simpler terms, can you define what you mean by wisdom being an intermediary state? And how to acquire it? I kind of loosely translated wisdom as 'vairagya', hope you know the term, it means, 'dispassion'. That is, a state of being passionless, almost like 'karma yoga'. Do you mean, the goal of humans is to attain dispassion? And if so, how would that aid in emancipation of the self later on?

Yes I understand what is vairagya, there is also a term yukta vairagya or the trick or method for dispassion of material desires, material desires promote becoming and fading away which is the cause of dukkha, yukta vairagya requires no artificial renunciation or false suppression of the senses and worldly desires, that method is to engage the senses in the correct way which brings stability and equanimity.

What is wisdom according wise, it is beyond all extremes, this can start at any point in the jivas story, it begins by cutting down attachments and aversions while gradually refining ones existence. Another word associated with wisdom is prajna and in second chapter its more of a state, what many people talk about these days as the gap, or the space between, chidakash is in madyam the middle of extremes, the centre of duality of heat and cold, success and failure, attachment and aversion, included in this compound or group of consciousness is sama, steadiness, equanimity and balance, priti happiness, and from this a new form of satisfaction is found, which is not dependant on mind and sense stimulation, and mind and sense stimulation is then seen as a hindrance to those higher refined states but also chasing after mind and sense desires ultimately brings dukkha either to oneself or others, so this burden is laid down with both awareness of cause and effect but also by experience of something para or superior, so tyagi is not really renunciation its the discovery and experience of something higher than regular sense and mind experience and has little to do with denial and more to do with evolution.


I can only type in bits and pieces. There is so much to say about this I am really not always sure where to start.

Quick note on two forms of Karma yoga, one is the way of following ones nature and acting according to duty and offering the results as yajna. The other Karma yoga is how the jivanmukta acts in this world, he is not beyond activity, his action are not bound due to realisation of Brahman., as Gita says again one who see's action in action and inaction in action is a seer, this really would be the perfection of human life and the profound state.

[Viraja]

Quite a profound reply! Lots to think about. Your point about wisdom being a stage that is staying in the middle and that it is evolutionary is well noted. Thanks.

[Soul of Light]

Nice video MD ji and awesome insight.
Sorry to interrupt between the flow of discussion. But I am still confused about one basic thing. I will be glad if it will get cleared.

What I understood yet is that, when we become spiritual all good qualities like wisdom and devotion unfold between us and advancing further we feel a extreme joy like feeling which many called ecstacy or bliss. (Putting it in simpler words)

In case of spiritually ignorant but materially blessed person who has good family, nice friend circle and mostly everything. If we ignore the sorrows then he also experience joy.

What is the difference between this two joys?
Spiritual one is continuous and not dependent on stimuli.
While material one is rising and fading depending on situation.

Rather than that what is the difference in the quality of joy? Or the energy of that joy? Is both same or different? Is any experience or anything mention in scriptures about it?
Pranam

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste Soul of Light,


It all seems to boil down to what lasts and is based in security. The is no denial that material life brings enjoyment, but enjoyment is not always guaranteed an often based on selfishness. The very nature of mind and senses is unstable, unsteady and uncertain. A person may study to be a professional, spend years sacrificing so much leisure time to be what he wants, same with a sports personality or any ambitious person, but the results are not certain, we tend to only see the success side of things and that as a goal of life, behind the scenes in the professional world, sports personalities and ambition there is also a whole lot of failure too. Some get lucky materially while others do not, some have great material life while others do not, basing existence solely around material happiness seems to be a bit of a gamble.

The yogi/devotee/sadhaka's mind is quite peculiar to the ordinary persons, he may welcome difficulties more than easy times, the glaring opulence of the delight in the world of senses as a trap and suffering in his condition as purifying his being. So both the yogi/devotee is prepared to go through some difficulty same as the materialist and give up certain things for some time but the end result of the materialist pursuit is different, any pleasure joy or experience is fleeting, temporary and eventually everything is lost and is constantly under the laws of uncertainty, while even a small fraction of experience of that which is para or above mind and senses can full fill everything and the pursuit of that is more stable but not always easy, even to the point where success and failure in the material side of life is not so important, or is met with the same quality of mind.

Sometimes the teachings seem harsh and dry, as though all forms of material existence is full of suffering, the repetition that this world is filled with birth, ageing, sickness and sorrow, grief and miserly condition that hates any form of enjoyment, and lives on dry bred and denies all happiness in the world. Thats how religion often preaches.

From the dharma point of view its simple describing the process of becoming, contact with the senses and its results, and the process of ascension and gradual purification and the path leading to complete satisfaction and what are the factors which promote bondage and liberation, its an analysis via our own conscious awareness of the process of bondage which is the cause of dissatisfaction and the process of liberation which brings one satisfaction, the enlightened who teach don't judge, they describe the processes of both and the results of both and then open both hands and say blue pill for bondage, red pill for liberation, its our choice.

An example of material life which just happened right now. Today is my sons 18 birthday so we planned to have a house party and invited family and friends to enjoy but I have just been told that my mom went into hospital ( she will be ok and she is well looked after ). Nothing is certain even if its fairly well planned.

Jai Sri krsna

[Soul of Light]

Namaste MD ji.
Thanx for such a nice post.. well explained. My doubts are clear.. I hope your Mom is fine now
Pranam

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste Soul of Light Ji,

Yes all fine thank you. I wanted to add more to try and round it off a bit about the balance between the spiritual and material which is known today as the middle path, or way beyond extremes which leads to calming, dispassion and awakening, the middle teachings are the wisdom teachings the bridge between the worldly existence and that which transcends it. But my time is a bit short and only flashing visits.

Pranams

[Soul of Light]

Thank you MD ji.
I will wait for your amazing insights. Take your time.
Pranam