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Thread: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

  1. #11

    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Most welcome Satay.

  2. #12

    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste,
    Just been wondering about this statement. I am just curious how is that you are so sure about the existence of soul/atma?
    namaste satay
    jada prakriti and chetan prakriti , two types are there .
    we can put the mass beyond earth , oxygen beyond earth and so on .
    similarly the live energy must be balanced and moving around the universe ...aum kham brahman ... i suppose and hence the soul existing .
    to my understanding but i am not very sure .
    JSK

  3. #13
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    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siddharth View Post
    No jeevatmas are not destined to live in bondage forever. Even if you are the worst among the sinners, you can evovle and attain moksha
    I used to have a book called 'Stotra Mala' (Garland of hymns) in Tamil by LIFCO Publishers. I remember having read in the prologue of that book, that according to Madhvacharya's Dwaitha, which is a sect of Vaishnavism, souls are classified into 3 categories, I don't recall all names, but the eternally bonded is called 'nithya samsari' (the eternally bonded) or also known as 'baddha jeevatmas' and are said to be trapped in wordly existence forever.

    Certainly, I do find that many souls in this material world, have such nature of sins, they are not worthy of being considered for moksha ever!

    I tried googling on nithya samsaris and baddha jeevatmas, but only found questions on them, especially in stackexchange Hinduism site. Obviously not too many people know about the concept well!

    When you say mukthi is for all, which school of thought are you referring to?
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  4. #14

    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Namaste,

    Did you know the story of Amarnath (snow lingam)?

    This is the place wherein mother Parvathi requested Lord Shiva to reveal her the secret of creation. To this Lord Shiva said, no one knows the secret of creation and it is not to be revealed to anyone as well. Nevertheless to Parvathi he will certainly tell the secret but nobody else should listen to it, and hence would reveal the secret in the most secluded spot. And he brings ma Parvathi to the Amarnath spot and he whispers the secret of creation in her ears.... but sadly, as per destiny, Parvathi falls asleep during the lecture from Shiva and fails to hear the secret of creation (how souls are created).

    I do not think any human, including Acharyas knows the secret of creation, that ma Parvathi herself does not know...

    Secondly, it is believed that originally the cosmic Purusha only existed and that because of excessive boredom, he created Prakriti and then duplicated himself into creation.

    It is also believed that no one, including Purusha himself, can resist the temptation from Prakriti to act... as maya is all too powerful (if she is an identity that is independent from Purusha).

    Certain sects of Hinduism, like Vaishnavism, believe that mukthi is not for all... certain so-called bonded jeevatmas are destined to live in bondage forever.

    Hi, help me with the translator because I'm from Argentina, I speak Spanish.
    I wanted to say two things about it, one that the nasadiya-sukta of the rig veda, the hymn of creation, explains how the universe was created.
    And the second mention, is from my Guru, Paramahansa Yogananda, a modern avatar, he mentions that before the big bang, and in the primordial moment, we existed in god, as an unmanifested seed, that the soul was awake but not manifested, and that after that God dreamily created the universes, and the souls dreamed the bodies.

  5. #15
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    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Namaste Vraja,

    Souls are Eternal - not created and none of the Vedic philosophies have doubts on this concept.

    Advaita has to give two layer of reality and dismiss one as temporary real and the other as the permanent real - this way, the same Atman is multiple and ultimately one. Very complex but Atman is still not created.
    Bedha Schools - Difference is real - Atman and Brahman are always existing eternally. Madhva qualifies and classifies the atman as Mukthi Yogyas, Mutkhi Ayogyas and Nitya Samsarin - Saatvic atmas are eligible for salvation - Tamasic atmas are eternally damned and the rajasic will continue the cycle of birth and death forever. All Bedha schools "Atman" are just eternal and dependent on the independent Brahman.

    We don't have anywhere in the Vedic literature any idea of "Atma getting created or destroyed" - The creation is only material manifestation and the association or atma to the manifested matter ( like form etc.).

    Then we have lot of stories with masala and no truth or meaning in to those.

    Hare Krshna

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    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Namaste Vraja,

    Souls are Eternal - not created and none of the Vedic philosophies have doubts on this concept.

    Advaita has to give two layer of reality and dismiss one as temporary real and the other as the permanent real - this way, the same Atman is multiple and ultimately one. Very complex but Atman is still not created.
    Bedha Schools - Difference is real - Atman and Brahman are always existing eternally. Madhva qualifies and classifies the atman as Mukthi Yogyas, Mutkhi Ayogyas and Nitya Samsarin - Saatvic atmas are eligible for salvation - Tamasic atmas are eternally damned and the rajasic will continue the cycle of birth and death forever. All Bedha schools "Atman" are just eternal and dependent on the independent Brahman.

    We don't have anywhere in the Vedic literature any idea of "Atma getting created or destroyed" - The creation is only material manifestation and the association or atma to the manifested matter ( like form etc.).

    Then we have lot of stories with masala and no truth or meaning in to those.

    Hare Krshna
    Namaste grames ji,

    That makes sense, but the Advaita explanation about temporary real and permanent real (so as to accomodate jeevas and paramatma) is too complex for me, just as you said.

    Regardless of philosophy, I kinda think Brahmadeva does create atmans, from the scratch. But as discussed in some other thread, the process is a secret.

    Thanks and regards,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  7. #17

    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Namaste

    The reason jeevAtmAs are uncreated is that karma is anAdi. Beginningless, or it cannot be traced back anyway. So jeevas, or organisms are expressions of the vAsanA=>karma=>samskAr cycle. They are just given the external mold, but the jeevAtmAs themselves are not created at a point in time.

    Karma is anAdi because time is cyclic, not linear. The assumption "created in the beginning" assumes linear time. You can say the dormant seeds in the mahat, that holds the eternal repository of recycled karma-vAsanA-samskArs, are used as existing source to give / plan for the outer physical form to / of jeevas.

    I do see where you are coming from - that when 10 out of gazillion jeevAtmA get liberated, where do new ones get added from ? 10 + 99999999999999 Shhh this is the secret that shuka stole
    It means we can never know because it is such a large number that we cannot comprehend it.

    Do our mathematical rules even apply at that mega level? Quantum Math? Quantum mechanics break the one-to-one relation premise. This is where advaita and mAyA comes in.

    Another thing is -- is there really a one-to-one relationship between the seeds of karma-vAsanA and 'a' jeevAtmA? How does the repository work?

    KRshNa expanded into 7 KRshNas to fight 7 bulls and win Satya , and expanded into 16100 . Quantum Physics.


    Further, just as law of thermodynamics applies to the physical energy, a similar law must apply to the karma-vAsanA repository?

    Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2.16

    nāsato vidyate bhāvo
    nābhāvo vidyate sataḥ
    ubhayor api dṛṣṭo ‘ntas
    tv anayos tattva-darśibhiḥ

    That which is unreal or non-eternal (asat) cannot sustain existence, and that which IS , always, eternal (Sat) cannot stop existing. Indeed this has been analyzed and concluded by the knowers of Truth.

    --

    This (about jeevAtmA) is irrespective of school of thought, because advaita's stance of "this is unreal mAyA illusion" is just a perspective, depending on where you are standing, which step, side or part of the giant Truth-kaleidoscope. It means the sAdhak is gently kept away from the diversion of worrying about this and asked to focus on their own salvation and jnAna.

    In my opinion, advaita is just a helicopter view -- where jnAna and moksha means shifting the identity pointer from i-the-jeeva to I-the-AtmA-Brahman


    Shubha MahAshivrAtri to everyone by the way.

    Om Namah ShivAya
    Om namo Bhagavate VAsudevAya
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 28 February 2022 at 10:31 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Namaste grames ji,

    That makes sense, but the Advaita explanation about temporary real and permanent real (so as to accomodate jeevas and paramatma) is too complex for me, just as you said.

    Regardless of philosophy, I kinda think Brahmadeva does create atmans, from the scratch. But as discussed in some other thread, the process is a secret.

    Thanks and regards,

    Viraja
    You are free to think anything and everything you want

    But, if you want to know what the Vedic schools says, the answer is, "Atman is not Created" and its Eternal.
    Brahma does not create the "Atma" and this is very anti-vedic as well. Here is why..

    1. Brahma lives for a Brahma Yug - His "LIFE" has an END - but The Soul that becomes or takes up the role of Brahma has no end - eternal.
    2. If Soul is created by the "Created Being" - ie Brahma, then Ultimate destiny for that Soul need not be beyond attaining the Brahma loka ( I hope you are not someone who confuse about Brahman and Brahma). But, vedic path ultimate gift or phala is not attaining Brahma - Brahmaloka is transitory.
    3. There is one another strong logical fallacy happens here - Whats created will be destroyed - So, if Soul is created, it is subjected to destruction. This is unacceptable to the Vedic wisdom.

    Lot more can be described and explained about Atman but i think the above three is sufficient to know the vedic position.

    Thank you
    Hare Krshna

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    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Namaste,

    Fantastic and yes, all that we learn must make sense to us first
    If Atman is subjected to destruction because it is created, no one cares to do any good and life will become meaningless. Why care abt what is going to be destroyed permanently or eternally. . In fact, this is the understanding of the western philosophies - Life is only one chance and the Soul itself will be destructed - if it doesn't go to heaven. This is erroneous and meritless understanding or concept in itself. Body != Soul and body is the one that is created - as an manifestation of matter or in simple words, the soul gets attached or enslaved in a material form - Rupa. This is the BIRTH - association of Soul with matter - Matter goes back to matter and soul goes back to its destination when this association is over - The association is ruled by Karma, Kala and Krupa. If this is understood, every understanding is automatic.

    Hare Krshna

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    Re: Are our souls eternal like that of Brahman or created by Brahman?

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    You are free to think anything and everything you want

    But, if you want to know what the Vedic schools says, the answer is, "Atman is not Created" and its Eternal.
    Brahma does not create the "Atma" and this is very anti-vedic as well. Here is why..

    1. Brahma lives for a Brahma Yug - His "LIFE" has an END - but The Soul that becomes or takes up the role of Brahma has no end - eternal.
    2. If Soul is created by the "Created Being" - ie Brahma, then Ultimate destiny for that Soul need not be beyond attaining the Brahma loka ( I hope you are not someone who confuse about Brahman and Brahma). But, vedic path ultimate gift or phala is not attaining Brahma - Brahmaloka is transitory.
    3. There is one another strong logical fallacy happens here - Whats created will be destroyed - So, if Soul is created, it is subjected to destruction. This is unacceptable to the Vedic wisdom.

    Lot more can be described and explained about Atman but i think the above three is sufficient to know the vedic position.

    Thank you
    Hare Krshna
    Namaste grames ji,

    Yes I am aware the soul part is eternal and not created. I'm referring to the jeevatma - individual manifesting as a human on earth - who is created by Brahma.

    There is some huge process that goes on behind this creation by brahma - it starts at Prakrithi acting upon purusha creating a desire in purusha to 'manifest'. (*)

    Then purusha manifests as the individual atman, to which Brahma then assigns mahat budhdhi and individual ahamkara, which creates karmas (**).

    The above is the process in my understandng, in a nutshell. The elaborate process is unknown (anadhi).

    * I see purusha as the residence of all souls of all jeevas (humans, animals). Prakrithi is the maya that acts on this purusha and depending on the type of desire that results in purusha, different qualities of jeevas emerge (sattvic, rajasic, tamasic).

    ** I opine that karmas are assigned even at the outset - meaning, a newly created jeeva would also have karmas to begin with.

    (Your kind explanation on the reasons why Atman is eternal and cannot be created was splendid, thank you!)

    Thanks and regards,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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