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Thread: New questions?

  1. Re: New questions?

    Waterfall,

    To really understand Gita, or Bhagavatam, one has to really live it.

    Markandeya and I both recommend the Bhagavatam very much, but what hasn't been mentioned is one has to live it, from a personal place.

    Bhagavatam is very beautiful and vast. And as Markandeya mentions, each verse is tremendous.

    But, if you want to understand it, one has to spend time in devotion...

    This is, the path mentioned.

    I.e., understanding it as a scholar, is simply impossible.

    This would be like trying to understand math from the platform of molecular biology.


    To begin with, ahimsa - non violence - is primary. If this is not there, then all of the rest can never be.

    Blessings.
    Peace

  2. #22

    Re: New questions?

    Timetraveller

    Its a bit presumptuous to say that if someone doesnt understand something they are not living a life devoted dedicated to understanding/realizing aspects of Dharma, even Uddava after coming from Vrndavana in 11th canto still had many questions, was he lacking in living his life separate from Krsna. There are many devotees that have been soley dedicated on a daily basis and outwardly and inwardly trying their hardest in ways most people cannot imitate, but still they are not clear about certain things, so why is that.

    So what else is missing if the people who are very dedicated and devoted and lives as devotees full time, and still are not understanding and then whats next for them. And just because people have an understanding of the texts doesnt mean they are scholars in the way your saying, i dont think Waterfall is asking as a scholar and I am not replying as scholar. So I fail to fully grasp your point, although its partially valid but devotion in sentiment will not produce the right effects, and you missed some of things i mentioned. Before devotion can arise one needs to learn sadhana which all takes place in the citta, which is not the sentimental heart, this is the whole point to understand creation and cosmology of Bhagavatam. As your fond of swami vivekanda he said that first we get the external understanding and by grace the internal devotion develops by that Grace. Bhakti is not something that one does. And partially I am offering something to other devotees that may come across this and I know they are already doing their best to live in accordance with Krsna consciousness in devotional mood.

    Waterfall

    Back to the topic

    I quickly glanced at this

    from one of the links

    Behold, there arose in God the thought of creating new beings
    Most people associate creating beings as external objects like trees, plants, birds, fish, animals and humans. When God/brahman is using brahmA to create the beings what he creates are new states within ones own life, or state of being. This is where creation of the outer universe is not mentioned in any of dharma texts, the creation is of new states of being, which takes place at the centre of being or in the mind the first created living being in the universe the individual universe BrahmA is the centre of each universe, the jiva is the microcosm, each microcosm has BrahmA, in dharma terms we( the citta the atomic form of consciousness) are the centre of our own universes, microcosm . Not that we are the centre or any one living being is the centre of the outside universe, thats impossible, how can so many living beings all be the centre of the universe, who knows how many living external forms of beings, so again centre of the universe in the context of the dharma traditions is the citta, and BrahmA is the centre the creator, everything is mind born, the outside universe is not the macrocosm in the vedic texts. Its the subtle universe when citta has moments of awakening.

    Iskcon or the main preaching form of current Iskcon, not all devotees associated with Gaudia Vaishnavism say this as you mentioned

    Our sources say that at some point we made a choice to turn away from Krishna—and away from our eternal life in the spiritual world—just because we could. We think, "Why should Krishna be God? Why can't I be God?" So Krishna obligingly provides us with an environment where we can imagine ourselves as the center of existence.
    Which sources? Srila Prabhupada spoke sometimes in whats known as yukti's or methods to teach, yukti's or methods have two aspects, one is time place and circumstance to level of the audience to get a point across and then second aspect is that they are time bound, meaning that they should not be made into a dogma or a fixed belief. So what Srila Prabhupada said can't always be taken literally, thats a huge part of the problem because he said many things that sometimes contradicted other statements, this is partly why there is no consensus in the institute or no natural alignment with all the devotees, because everything is taken as literate, each word that Srila Prabhupada spoke is the Absolute unchangeable Truth, and it causes a lot of problems and divisions and many long standing debates which are unresolved after many years.

    It becomes highly important that we understand our central existence and consciousness as being the centre of existence, and religion and science when it comes to understanding the creation and origins of the Universe keeps ones attention focused on the outer and dependant on the outer, Bhumi who is an aspect of devotion first seeks BrahmA internally, seeks out who is creating all the unruly kings in the earth, in fact Bhumi Devi ( an aspect of Bhakti~devotion) is awakening BrahmA to his mismanagement of the universe. Then when he seeks Vishnu, Vishnu then starts creating new states of being that gradually liberated BrahmA or the citta the mind. This is whats meant by creation in the vedic texts. If this is understood I will try to add something in another post which may be able to highlight that the vedic texts are not talking in anyway shape or form about the creation of matter.

    Hare Krsna
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; Yesterday at 10:10 AM.

  3. #23

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa (and timetraveler)


    I just thought the book was relevant because it also talks about a fall.


    There must be a reason for us being here on earth?


    ISKCON created a dualistic argument that has no basis in vedanta, same as flat and round earth, its concocted.
    Can you explain this to me?


    I don't have time to read through all the Christian Theology and as said before its not my interest, if anything its a distraction and veers away from dharma. Although the same message will be in their somewhere, as in first was the word and the creation of the worlds in 7 sevens days. Om being the word and Seven Lokas which are conscious abodes not the outer universe, this would be the divine creation.
    I just wanted to tell about this fall and tell about this view on the universe:


    http://vandrermotlyset.net/Om%20univ...20del%204.html


    Does the universe look like this? I have my doubt...but who knows? I am not a scientist (astronomer/astrophysicist) and is not able to investigate it. But I think it is interesting...heaven being in the center of creation. That makes sense. If I had money then I would hire some scientist to investigate this description of the universe. Is it possible to create a universe this way? If it is not possible...well...then we (also) have learnt something.


    I do not think you have to go through all the Christian Theology. The Christians think God created Adam and Eve and so on. This book say it was some fallen angels who created man 5 million years ago:


    http://thelightuniversal.org/page67.html


    I am not convinced of anything, so...


    At the moment this book is just an interesting book that I have read.


    I have read your latest post and I am glad that you have not given up on me


    There are so many things to talk about...


    Who am I:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjSG6z_13-Q

  4. #24

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krsna Waterfall

    I havent given up on this thread but the question of fall has a limitation, and until we are fully awake we wont know, the original teaching in the dharma traditions is how to get out of the cycle of birth and death. If we give an answer it can only satisfy some curiosity, and then someone may say something else to counter that and it brings confusion, who is right and who is wrong. So the answer is given by illumination or realisation. The question itself is natural but to keep stuck on it waiting for the right answer will not solve the existential problem of being bound by change and distress of birth , ageing disease and death.


    ISKCON created a dualistic argument that has no basis in vedanta, same as flat and round earth, its concocted.


    Can you explain this to me?
    Srila Prabhupada gave equivocal teachings, so it then becomes open to many types of interpretation and the people who gave the final edited editions were not enlightened so this creates dualistic arguments and false conclusions, which has caused division and lots of arguments and fighting in ISCKON and other factions of Gaudia Math. Thats why taking everything literally becomes perplexing and inside ISKCON there are people who want to cause division, that is the way of the material world which is full of duality, the duality gets emphasis and it all collapses.

    I have very short amounts of time online at the moment so i cant go through everything you post, i generally dont listen to talks on Youtube so much anymore, or follow anyone in particular and I dont have time to go through your links and then make a synthesis with Bhagavatam, in my experience over the years knowing devotees the Christian Theology is a major hindrance and is a large part of causing confusion because they are seeing creation as starting from the outer, and the descriptions of the universe as the outer universe, and God creating the suffering or enjoyments of the living beings, so its best just to throw it all out and understand as best as possible the original way Dharma was taught, for this you may need to meet sadhus in real life and they are hard to find, or you dont find them, they find you. You have inquiry that is the important thing and at some point surely everything will come. God/Brahman is nothing but the liberator when he is activated by the right type of inquiry~ jijnasu.

    For other questions directly related to Bhagavatam I will attempt to answer. I dont really listen or read anything in Iskcon very deeply anymore, some slokas parts of the purports and the etymology in transliterations of the slokas, and the only person I listen to on occasion more seriously is this devotee.

    http://www.bhagavatadharma.co.uk/

    Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita are the basis for Gaudia Vaishnava practice and way of life,they are for internal study and to connect in your own way and to learn something new everyday and constantly grow into whats being said, and to graduallylearn inner dependency, the outer world will always be tricky and dualistic and uncertain. Thats why its recommended that there needs to be a solid foundation of whats in second chapter samkhya yoga in Bhagavad Gita.

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