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Thread: New questions?

  1. Re: New questions?


    Dear Waterfall,

    We were always Atman. In past and in future and present.

    Best wishes.
    Last edited by timetraveler; 07 June 2019 at 05:03 PM.
    Gam Gam Ganapati

  2. #12

    Re: New questions?

    Namaste Timetraveller

    Good to know and i appreciate your reply, so hopefully we can continue to explore the concept of creation and cosmology of the bhagavatam, and I look forward to anyone who can add to this, because there are some important things in the development of the understanding of Srimad Bhagavatam and Vedic way of thinking to keep those texts and traditions in the right and original context, to break free from philosophical works and religious theology, and mixing it with flat and round earth debates, or limiting it to emprical scientific discovery and authority, all of this just diverts the attention away from the power of Bhagavatam which is living force and the building up of Vikalpa, subtle inwards impressions which is a sadhana and lays the ground for true meditation and invites Brahman into the citta, heart mind centre.

    There are some important considerations, that needs to be differentiated from the creation and descent of Brahman,opposing the current creation theories of mainstream religions and Science as an outward creation idea, I prefer to use the word Brahman or other shastric names rather than God, the simple reason is to paint the word God on everything there is the problem of Absolute Monotheism ( which is ripe today) where God is absolute one thing only and absolutely everything and we become that, and everything is God.

    Brahman is advaita non dual, there is no difference in Him, or the nature of our true inner most being or swarupa~identity, Brahman and his expansions and various forms are one undivided reality which is always conscious of One nature, but each spiritual Body of the Oneness and undivided nature has their own unique spiritual form and potency which is always in union and and without division to the others. To say Krsna, Shiva, Ganesh, Vishnu, Ram are all exactly the same and identical is not correct, to say that there is any difference in them is also not correct and srimad bhagavatam resolves these puzzles by expanding the meaning of divine mediums that are one in purpose and arrive at the same conclusion and are undifferentiated and unified.

    To put these mediums in sushupti Vad, deep sleep, yogic sleep in brahmanda , or states of prajna in the subtle universe, more subtle than mind and sense perception in the third state, which automatically brings union with Turiya Brahman then we get closer to understanding vedanta, which is directly seen and experienced in states of samadhi, where citta is involuting and absorbing into the subtle 3rd state, through inner space akash into the macrocosm, universal realm of buddhi yoga, unifying with the Supreme with his various potencies.

    The first part of the puzzle is to know the creator, which is Brahma Deva, if we take Brahma Deva as the citta, as the first created Jiva, and individualize that to ones own conscious source then its more easier to understand whats meant by universe, this being that we experience consciousness or unconsciously, in 3 states, to introspect what is creation and the timeless potential of the descent of Brahman into the conscious being. Rather than some external Godhead that controls everything and somehow decides everyone's fate and all external events are some how part of his Lila, this would make Krsna and the other divine expansions as having elements of evil and ill will and enjoying suffering, and that people who are suppressed into unfortunate conditions as part of their karma, that its somehow their fault and all part of Gods greater plan and some get mercy if they beg and develop mental slavery, or that somehow one is born into auspicious family, race or caste which makes them have some divine entitlement over others, which doesnt seem to be right when cosmology is understood and the nature of Brahman, which is all liberating and auspicious, otherwise known in this respect as Shiva, and is equally accessible to everyone no matter what condition in life or what birth or race status.....

    What is also beautiful about Srima Bhagavatam is that there are no stereotypes, many types of being get liberated, all extremes are considered and liberated, even when people were opposed to Brahman, such as Kamsa he wanted nothing but to kill Krsna, day and night his mind was obsessed how to kill and lived in fear, he was liberated. Hiranyakashipu was a great ascetic and was adverse to bhakti and seeing Brahman as external and could only see and wanted the power in himself, he was also liberated, same with ajamila he married a prostitute, Shishulpala was insulting to Krsna and had his head cut off by sudharshan chakra, of course all of these have subtle and esoteric meanings that happen in the macrocosm, the subtle state, more subtle than the subconscious mind, where everything unifies and becomes purfied by Turiya/Brahman and His expansions carried by the divine medium Ma.

    Nobody can judge what is jivan mukta or how Brahman descends into the jiva and the jiva then becomes the purpose and instrument of the Divine will, three modern examples and very different characters of ramana maharshi who was mostly silent, the ideal sadhu and saint, Bhagavana Nityanada, a simpleton, often he would be seen as a bit mad and when he spoke nobody understood him, or nisargadatta who chained smoked and when he spoke he was fluent and words came from him like river, endless but all of one nature. This refutes the mundane religious morality of mainstream Theism and directs one to shakti above mundane laws, where mundane enforced morality is an man made constraint and system of control, Srimad Bhagavatm transcends all man made ideas but never transcends being human. The point of this is if Brahman descends into the Jiva there is no stereotype how that person may act or speak, but his essence is non different to Brahman, the purpose and conclusion is One, its beyond all measurement all external conceptualisation, in this way Srimad Bhagavtam explains transcendent cosmology and the descent of Brahman into the Jiva~citta~Brahma Dev, and Brahma Dev acts as the creator and transparent medium for the descent of Brahman, into the 3 worlds, tri loka.

    Maybe this answers or helps waterfall in his questions, maybe not, but my input here is to include where others may read, more directed at how Iskcon is approaching Bhagavatam because there will be devotees that come here and check this site. So my motivation is to as best as I can put some things into context where it seems some parts are way of the mark in some places at the moment, but this is not a wholesale comment other parts of Bhagavatam which devotees discuss are very nice and sweet and filled with devotional mood.

    Hare Krsna
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 08 June 2019 at 07:06 PM.

  3. #13

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa (and timetraveler)

    I think it would be good to have someone from the Hare Krishna movement here.

    Because I would like to hear what they have to say about the beginning.

    If it do not make any sense then they "might" be open to another understanding of things.

    Lets take it from the beginning.

    We have Brahma (who is not a fallen soul) and Brahma creates something.

    But what?

    If Brahma creates a human and a cow, then there is a problem, because why should you begin as a cow and I begin as a human?

    Where do we begin our existence and as what?

    Another thing to think about, because they say there are unlimited numbers of fallen souls, but lets say there only was 10 fallen souls (is that not a possibility?) would the world then look like? 1 plant, 2 animals, 3 humans and 4 demigods?

    They need a lot of fallen souls to create a world like ours.

    I think your way of looking at things are interesting and that you should keep on explaning it.

    Just for inspiration:

    There are great things going on in the world:

    I have not read your latest post, so I will do that now.

  4. #14

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krsna Waterfall

    I am initiated into Gaudia Vaishnvava Sampradaya, my initiating guru is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, but as i was saying in terms of cosmology within ISKCON there is not a consensus apart from the general GBC the governing body commission of the institute which is not always correct, so its a work in progress, i am not part of the institution. The main Body of Gaudia Vaishnava is to understand the Bhagavat Dharma, or the essence and nature of the pure devotee, the Bhagavat, this means in simple explanation that that the Srimad Bhagavatam is a conscious Map, and the subject of empirical creation of matter and the outside and outward creation is not part of the Srimad Bhagavatam, its ontological or related to conscious being, which is beyond matter.

    Modern times and scientific enquiry is obsessed with reducing everything thing into the limitation that we can explain everything empirically one way or another, to somehow make it real. Srimad Bhagavatam like all shastra is beyond this, more subtle than this, but we have access by conscious means, ie yoga and sadhana and the culture of the Bhagavat or pure devotees, liberated souls, that appear in unlimited and various forms.

    Within ISKCON mainstream these things are being discussed, sometimes in the right way but many times in the wrong way, mixing it with empirical science creation on an external basis but in the subtle domain, or Christian theology, this is just part of conditioned explanation and falls short of the mark. So your welcome to ask them but you may not always get the correct answer on Bhagavatam dharma.

    We have Brahma (who is not a fallen soul) and Brahma creates something.

    But what?
    BrahmA when he becomes enlightened acts as the medium for Brahman ( God )to enter the cosmos, or universe, via varying strengths of potencies to gradually purify and liberate all beings in the 3 world or tri loka.

    Tri Loka 3 worlds of being

    1st state ~Sense consciousness of the 5 senses, sight, sound, taste, touch and smell

    2~ State Mind consciousness

    3 state~ Super mind consciousness, universal state, more subtle than Mind

    Brahman is the 4th state of consciousness, always liberated and never bound in the other states of consciousness.

    Srimad Bhagvatam is when Brahman enters the 3rd state which then brings liberation to mind and sense consciousness .

    3rd state is a map of the super consciousness, BrahmA is the original living Being in this state, the creator. Brahman is not creator God as in the other theological religions.

    If Brahma creates a human and a cow, then there is a problem, because why should you begin as a cow and I begin as a human?

    Where do we begin our existence and as what?

    Another thing to think about, because they say there are unlimited numbers of fallen souls, but lets say there only was 10 fallen souls (is that not a possibility?) would the world then look like? 1 plant, 2 animals, 3 humans and 4 demigods?

    They need a lot of fallen souls to create a world like ours.
    Bhumi, which means when the living sensual mind being wakes up to his limitation and stress due to worldly desires seeks out the creator, and in Bhagavatam takes the form of cow. Again as with goloka, this form of the cow is not creation of the outside cow we see in the empirical world, its an inner form of devi. This awakening also wakes up the BrahmA and he then becomes enlightened and creation of the cosmic expansion of Brahman enters the the Jiva multiple levelled being. Unlimited beings in the context of Bhagavatam is the unlimited states of being we experience as a conscious being. Considering that psychology and neurology cant map the brain and account for all the states of the subconscious and conscious states what to speak of us understanding the subtle cosmic super mind and states that is more subtle and profound than the regular conscious and subconscious states. To understand all 3 states tri loka these 3 worlds of conscious being needs the expansion of Brahman and his varying potencies and this is the subject of Srimad Bhagavatam, where the end goal is that one becomes liberated and has the same nature of Brahman, that s the Bhagavat or pure devotee, in other words only a Self realized person can understand Bhagavatam, which is living tradition and no two Bhagavats are the same but a always one in essence.

    I am not sure why you mention the number 10. The only relation to this number I can think of the 10 indriyas, or 5 knowledge acquiring senses and 5 action senses, which are part of each jivas being and when purified are instruments of Brahman and how the liberated Jiva functions as Brahman in this world.

    I hope this makes it slightly more clear, I only have a short time in the morning at the moment to reply.

    To really understand Bhagavatam you have to be dedicated as a devotee, as each progressive stage of understanding Bhagvatam is only understood through Grace of the sadhu who is Brahman, the Bhagavat.

    Hare Krsna
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 10 June 2019 at 06:38 PM.

  5. #15

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

    There will be those who better understand you and can talk with you about Srimad Bhagavatam:

    To me this is interesting:

    the Srimad Bhagavatam is a conscious Map, and the subject of empirical creation of matter and the outside and outward creation is not part of the Srimad Bhagavatam, its ontological or related to conscious being, which is beyond matter.
    Is there a translation of the book that you can recommend? I am danish and happens to live close to a Hare Krishna temple in denmark. Should I go down there and buy the book of them?

    Something else...

    Could you say something about this:

    People have problems...

    It would be good if there was someone from the Hare Krishna movement here.

    Maybe they will come...

    You say there has not been a fall and point to Bhagavad Gita 8.21.

    When you get the time (and just take your time markandeya 108 dasa) I would like to hear how this cancels out a fall. If you already has explained it then I have missed it.

    Just for others understanding:

    Hare Krishna,

    I think you have some incorrect understanding. I have never heard that we get our own universe. We are put on some planet to start our journey of self discovery and purification. Lord Brahma is a very high position, not for some fallen soul. He is instated, appointed to start the universe. The scriptures say that if there is not a qualified Brahma, then He will take the post. It is stated that we have to go through all the species and work our way to human form, then we are responsible for our next life because karma clicks in. There are unlimited fallen souls and unlimited universes, populated by only 1/4 th the amount of souls that have never fallen. Krishna places us here to learn our lesson to not be envious of Him and to purify our misused independence. We can choose, once in human form, to go to the higher planets or Vaikuntha planets, or hopefully, Krishna Loka, so we don't have to go through this again. I hope this helps some. One thing Srila Prabhpuada said was that we should not worry how we got here, but worry how to get out of here.

    Because (when i read this) I thought Krishnaloka was something else than Goloka.

    But we are talking about the same place:

    I would like to talk about the fall, because lets say there only was 10 (I could say another number, but lets say 10) fallen souls. How would the world then look like? Can we create a meaningfull world with this number of fallen souls? 1 plant, 2 animals, 3 humans and 4 demigods?

    Is there not a problem here?

    I like the Hare Krishna movement:

    Great people...

    We need some more joy and positive thinking in the world

    I would like to create a worldwide spirituel channel. I know we have the internet, but I would like people to turn on their tv and see debates like this:

    Who is Krishna:

    What about Alan Watts:

    I am not talking about brainwashing least not in a negative way

    There most be millions of people with interest in spirituality.

    Just a little dream of mine.

    At the moment we have "netflix" and Morgan Freeman:

    I would like to give 100-200 dollars each month to a worldwide spirituel channel. Any profit should go to good things. Maybe the channel could start with "this" every morning:

    What do you think about this idea?

  6. #16

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krsna Waterfall

    Is there a translation of the book that you can recommend? I am danish and happens to live close to a Hare Krishna temple in denmark. Should I go down there and buy the book of them?

    Its upto you, if you do get the ISKCON Srimad Bhagavatam sets try and get the earliest versions as they are the least edited. Srila Prabhupada was translating directly from Srila Shridhara commentary in sanskrit, and he was an Advaita Vedantists. If you like the Hare Krsna devotees then by all means go and visit and talk with them, there are many good things that they do, great prasadam, spiritual vegetarian foods, many nice devotees, great kirtans and they look after the temples and ashrams nicely, at this moment though I consider that the cosmology in general consensus has not developed, but its a new movement and its good that they can and are discussing these things on regular basis. So everything is there to be discovered which can only be a good thing.

    You say there has not been a fall and point to Bhagavad Gita 8.21.
    How can there be a fall if one reaches that Supreme abode and one cant fall from that position, so the question of falling from the Supreme Abode is not considered.

    As said its one of the impossible questions to answer. One reason being is that when we are in ignorance or unenlightened how can we know, because the state of being unenlightened simple means that we dont know something, even if we are told we may question, so one is to first become enlightened then we know for ourselves. BhramA deva is surrounded by darkness and then he hears Om and the vedas are revealed to him, that him BrahmA is our citta or mind and gradually BrahmA is enlightened and understands what is creation and God consciousness and how Brahman comes into being from the state of non being or the inactive yoga nidra or divine sleep of Vishnu detached from worldly activity.

    Its really quite simple, and one first has to see that Dharma is about the true nature of being, so its not dealing with the outside creation of the universe, the outside universe of matter is considered in comparison as unconscious. We see the moon but we are not moon conscious, its separated from our being, we see objects but objects are not us, they are apart from us, so there is process of conscious evolution of first understanding what is spirit and what is matter. The Hubble telescope may relay pictures and images of far distance outer space, but do we feel, hear, taste or smell that environment.

    Mind creates all levels of being, good and bad, happy and distress states, so the creative potency is within mind and is related to being, mind created states of being. This is one level of creation, the lower level of creation, Brahman is inactive at this point, the only symptoms of consciousness is on sattvic states, all other states are considered as unconscious. So mind becomes the central theme of what is liberated and what is bound, citta is mind, citta in all ancient dharma traditions plays the central role, its the atomic part of consciousness, our being now is all coming from the citta, either in bound state or when purified or in stages of purification acts as the medium of brahman to enter into states of being and all states become liberated, brahman cannot directly manifest as matter because Brahman is nirguna or without any trace material quality. BrahmA is that medium and is central to our being our individual universe, but the word universe complicates it because we associate that word with the outer creation.

    I wont answer any of the other questions as they will just be my opinion, i like sadhguru on somethings and also Alan Watts, but each person has to work out whats inspires them and cultivate that as they feel fit.

    In terms of creating good projects, go for it why not, thats all i dedicate my time to and have done in one way or another, dharma is for being shared to bring equality and freedom to all beings, to save people, the planet and all sentient life from being exploited by mans corruption and pride, where he gives his own authority over others, based on bodily identification, this is opposite to Brahmanic consciousness.

    Hare Krsna

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