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Thread: New questions?

  1. #21

    Re: New questions?


    To really understand Gita, or Bhagavatam, one has to really live it.

    Markandeya and I both recommend the Bhagavatam very much, but what hasn't been mentioned is one has to live it, from a personal place.

    Bhagavatam is very beautiful and vast. And as Markandeya mentions, each verse is tremendous.

    But, if you want to understand it, one has to spend time in devotion...

    This is, the path mentioned.

    I.e., understanding it as a scholar, is simply impossible.

    This would be like trying to understand math from the platform of molecular biology.

    To begin with, ahimsa - non violence - is primary. If this is not there, then all of the rest can never be.


  2. #22

    Re: New questions?


    Its a bit presumptuous to say that if someone doesnt understand something they are not living a life devoted dedicated to understanding/realizing aspects of Dharma, even Uddava after coming from Vrndavana in 11th canto still had many questions, was he lacking in living his life separate from Krsna. There are many devotees that have been soley dedicated on a daily basis and outwardly and inwardly trying their hardest in ways most people cannot imitate, but still they are not clear about certain things, so why is that.

    So what else is missing if the people who are very dedicated and devoted and lives as devotees full time, and still are not understanding and then whats next for them. And just because people have an understanding of the texts doesnt mean they are scholars in the way your saying, i dont think Waterfall is asking as a scholar and I am not replying as scholar. So I fail to fully grasp your point, although its partially valid but devotion in sentiment will not produce the right effects, and you missed some of things i mentioned. Before devotion can arise one needs to learn sadhana which all takes place in the citta, which is not the sentimental heart, this is the whole point to understand creation and cosmology of Bhagavatam. As your fond of swami vivekanda he said that first we get the external understanding and by grace the internal devotion develops by that Grace. Bhakti is not something that one does. And partially I am offering something to other devotees that may come across this and I know they are already doing their best to live in accordance with Krsna consciousness in devotional mood.


    Back to the topic

    I quickly glanced at this

    from one of the links

    Behold, there arose in God the thought of creating new beings
    Most people associate creating beings as external objects like trees, plants, birds, fish, animals and humans. When God/brahman is using brahmA to create the beings what he creates are new states within ones own life, or state of being. This is where creation of the outer universe is not mentioned in any of dharma texts, the creation is of new states of being, which takes place at the centre of being or in the mind the first created living being in the universe the individual universe BrahmA is the centre of each universe, the jiva is the microcosm, each microcosm has BrahmA, in dharma terms we( the citta the atomic form of consciousness) are the centre of our own universes, microcosm . Not that we are the centre or any one living being is the centre of the outside universe, thats impossible, how can so many living beings all be the centre of the universe, who knows how many living external forms of beings, so again centre of the universe in the context of the dharma traditions is the citta, and BrahmA is the centre the creator, everything is mind born, the outside universe is not the macrocosm in the vedic texts. Its the subtle universe when citta has moments of awakening.

    Iskcon or the main preaching form of current Iskcon, not all devotees associated with Gaudia Vaishnavism say this as you mentioned

    Our sources say that at some point we made a choice to turn away from Krishna—and away from our eternal life in the spiritual world—just because we could. We think, "Why should Krishna be God? Why can't I be God?" So Krishna obligingly provides us with an environment where we can imagine ourselves as the center of existence.
    Which sources? Srila Prabhupada spoke sometimes in whats known as yukti's or methods to teach, yukti's or methods have two aspects, one is time place and circumstance to level of the audience to get a point across and then second aspect is that they are time bound, meaning that they should not be made into a dogma or a fixed belief. So what Srila Prabhupada said can't always be taken literally, thats a huge part of the problem because he said many things that sometimes contradicted other statements, this is partly why there is no consensus in the institute or no natural alignment with all the devotees, because everything is taken as literate, each word that Srila Prabhupada spoke is the Absolute unchangeable Truth, and it causes a lot of problems and divisions and many long standing debates which are unresolved after many years.

    It becomes highly important that we understand our central existence and consciousness as being the centre of existence, and religion and science when it comes to understanding the creation and origins of the Universe keeps ones attention focused on the outer and dependant on the outer, Bhumi who is an aspect of devotion first seeks BrahmA internally, seeks out who is creating all the unruly kings in the earth, in fact Bhumi Devi ( an aspect of Bhakti~devotion) is awakening BrahmA to his mismanagement of the universe. Then when he seeks Vishnu, Vishnu then starts creating new states of being that gradually liberated BrahmA or the citta the mind. This is whats meant by creation in the vedic texts. If this is understood I will try to add something in another post which may be able to highlight that the vedic texts are not talking in anyway shape or form about the creation of matter.

    Hare Krsna
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 25 June 2019 at 10:10 AM.

  3. #23

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa (and timetraveler)

    I just thought the book was relevant because it also talks about a fall.

    There must be a reason for us being here on earth?

    ISKCON created a dualistic argument that has no basis in vedanta, same as flat and round earth, its concocted.
    Can you explain this to me?

    I don't have time to read through all the Christian Theology and as said before its not my interest, if anything its a distraction and veers away from dharma. Although the same message will be in their somewhere, as in first was the word and the creation of the worlds in 7 sevens days. Om being the word and Seven Lokas which are conscious abodes not the outer universe, this would be the divine creation.
    I just wanted to tell about this fall and tell about this view on the universe:

    Does the universe look like this? I have my doubt...but who knows? I am not a scientist (astronomer/astrophysicist) and is not able to investigate it. But I think it is interesting...heaven being in the center of creation. That makes sense. If I had money then I would hire some scientist to investigate this description of the universe. Is it possible to create a universe this way? If it is not possible...well...then we (also) have learnt something.

    I do not think you have to go through all the Christian Theology. The Christians think God created Adam and Eve and so on. This book say it was some fallen angels who created man 5 million years ago:

    I am not convinced of anything, so...

    At the moment this book is just an interesting book that I have read.

    I have read your latest post and I am glad that you have not given up on me

    There are so many things to talk about...

    Who am I:

  4. #24

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krsna Waterfall

    I havent given up on this thread but the question of fall has a limitation, and until we are fully awake we wont know, the original teaching in the dharma traditions is how to get out of the cycle of birth and death. If we give an answer it can only satisfy some curiosity, and then someone may say something else to counter that and it brings confusion, who is right and who is wrong. So the answer is given by illumination or realisation. The question itself is natural but to keep stuck on it waiting for the right answer will not solve the existential problem of being bound by change and distress of birth , ageing disease and death.

    ISKCON created a dualistic argument that has no basis in vedanta, same as flat and round earth, its concocted.

    Can you explain this to me?
    Srila Prabhupada gave equivocal teachings, so it then becomes open to many types of interpretation and the people who gave the final edited editions were not enlightened so this creates dualistic arguments and false conclusions, which has caused division and lots of arguments and fighting in ISCKON and other factions of Gaudia Math. Thats why taking everything literally becomes perplexing and inside ISKCON there are people who want to cause division, that is the way of the material world which is full of duality, the duality gets emphasis and it all collapses.

    I have very short amounts of time online at the moment so i cant go through everything you post, i generally dont listen to talks on Youtube so much anymore, or follow anyone in particular and I dont have time to go through your links and then make a synthesis with Bhagavatam, in my experience over the years knowing devotees the Christian Theology is a major hindrance and is a large part of causing confusion because they are seeing creation as starting from the outer, and the descriptions of the universe as the outer universe, and God creating the suffering or enjoyments of the living beings, so its best just to throw it all out and understand as best as possible the original way Dharma was taught, for this you may need to meet sadhus in real life and they are hard to find, or you dont find them, they find you. You have inquiry that is the important thing and at some point surely everything will come. God/Brahman is nothing but the liberator when he is activated by the right type of inquiry~ jijnasu.

    For other questions directly related to Bhagavatam I will attempt to answer. I dont really listen or read anything in Iskcon very deeply anymore, some slokas parts of the purports and the etymology in transliterations of the slokas, and the only person I listen to on occasion more seriously is this devotee.

    Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita are the basis for Gaudia Vaishnava practice and way of life,they are for internal study and to connect in your own way and to learn something new everyday and constantly grow into whats being said, and to graduallylearn inner dependency, the outer world will always be tricky and dualistic and uncertain. Thats why its recommended that there needs to be a solid foundation of whats in second chapter samkhya yoga in Bhagavad Gita.

  5. #25

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

    I would like to delete the last thing in my previous reply "Who am I". Or the music part. It just pop up in my brain but I should have ignored it and made a link to this instead:

    I have not seen it yet, but it is something that I will see.

    What you are saying is interesting and new to me and I have to think about it.

    You said ISKCON created a dualistic argument? Can you explain this argument to me?

    And thank you for the link:

  6. #26

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krsna Waterfall

    You said ISKCON created a dualistic argument? Can you explain this argument to me?
    One of them is to do with your original question, on how we fall, if we was at some point in the spiritual world and then we became bound up samsara in life cycles of birth death and dissatisfaction. Was we with God/krsna, if we was always Atma or Brahman as guru, shastra and sadhu says then how did we fall into repeated birth, old age disease and death, how did we separate, its a natural question but the answer is not easy or straightforward as presented by ISKCON, where there is a split debate on what Srila Prabhupada said, as said earlier he gave equivocal teachings, sometimes varying his answers, if all of them are taken literally then there can be contradiction, the dualistic arguments are based on this. You may have to do more research independently of jiva tattva and tattashta tattva, did we originate from Vishnu or did we fall from Krsna Loka, these are the topics discussed in ISKCON, and then decide which side of the fence you want to base your beliefs if at all.

    Its normal to question these things, why is there evil in the world, is it God plays, do we have free, or is it the will of God, do people suffer by fate due to their karma, there are some clever materialist out there that use these to cover their own works in the world, but as I understand non of these actually apply not in the samadhi traditions anyway, were book and shastric reference to how its mostly used within western religious ways are redundant, and the concept of an external Creator God is not existent. And this is where many members of ISKCON struggle, due to mainly Christian Backgrounds where the word of God the books of God and the pure devotees are beyond questioning and what they say is always fundamentally and literally true, and its only our ignorance that fails to see this type of Absolute Authority, and many times religious statements are used to bolster ones own point or agenda, i have seen this happen time and time again.

    So large parts of my input is answers to these debates and some other wider topics as relate to ISKCON, but as I said i am no authority on this, but for me in how i understand these things, there is Absolutely no contradiction in any traditions of guru, sadhu and shastra.

    When creation is seen as coming from the citta or creation is mind born and BrahmA is part of the Citta, and once the citta has woken up then only God/Brahman in all his forms descends through the citta or the mind, this is why in the Dharma traditions Brahman the Absolute is not responsible or behind the suffering and injustice in the world, its man and his selfish desires, or lack of God consciousness, it becomes convenient to blame God or some one else, or be lazy to others suffering as its their Karma or Fate and nobody has any free will as everything is predestined, all of these are man made ideas which, should/have to be challenged in one way or another.

    Each of us have our own individual cosmos, no two living beings are the same, just as no two finger prints are the same and brahman will liberate each individual cosmos in its own unique way and Srimad Bhagavatam includes most if not all the processes, so there is no one way as per religion or sect, what works for one may not work for another but the final result is the same, so in public we just give hints and ideas and in private we build our personal relationship with the Absolute through the citta and we will gain insights into the causes creation of fall and the causes of liberation

  7. #27

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

    I will spend some time reading through the thread and think about what you are saying. Just so you know.

  8. #28

    Re: New questions?

    Namaste, Waterfall;

    So - one thing you should understand is that Hindu cosmology is different than Western Cosmology. The thing is, consciousness takes a higher place. If you are pure, then God is there.

    If we are in a divine state of consciousness, we are already in heaven. -- God is not somewhere far way, but everywhere. Within everything and everyone. So we should spend our lives trying to learn about God and live in such a way that He wants.

    To purify our hearts, and do good for others. So - it again comes back to simple things. . . What is the most important?

    Dharma, Peace, Truth, Love, and these -- it's necessary and importance.

    Sattva means goodness, and it implies gentleness, kindness, peacefulness, truthfulness......

    One part of Dharma, indeed one of the most important; is Ahimsa or non-violence.. Truth, Ahimsa, peace -- all of these are interconnected. . .

    It is generally understood Truth is the highest; but Ahimsa is so important as well.

    This is why I emphasized it, to understand these is important.
    Gam Gam Ganapati

  9. #29

    Re: New questions?

    Hare Krsna Waterfall,

    Take your time. I added a few things due this topic being in vogue at the moment because shortly ISKCON will open the Vedic planetarium, which will show in visual the universe according to Srimad Bhagavatam, and its stimulated some discussion on who plays what role in the universe. BrahmA is seen as an external creator which would be closer to Christian form of God creating the outer universe. This is the problem, so if God created the outer universe and controls everything then he also creates suffering and evil, this would be the opposite to Brahman.

    Matter is created by mind, our body is creation of mind, mind is filled with desire, even desiring to be good is a desire that binds one to this world, Brahman is beyond both good, bad and all opposites and comparisons, all given concepts are relative of good and bad, are conditional and based on sense perception , what is good for one person maybe bad for another, a good situation may lead to bondage a bad event may lead to liberation, nobody can measure the complexity, when mind finds equlibrium in the extremes then Brahman will descend into mind.

    This is why Brahman is not a creator God in the Biblical sense, He is nirguna non dual or beyond all concepts of matter which is mind created, Brahman is beyond any concept of mind created ideas and known through the process of yoga or samadhi, and unrelated to mundane religious sentiment, which is another form of sense perception, but how long do the senses last, renunciation and detachment is the highest way, this leads to seva, beyond even altruism and sattva although they are recommended, then the citta or mind if it is empowered by Brahman through his shakti is non different from Brahman until all created states of being are destroyed and all rebirth cycles have ended, each individual persons path of purification will be slightly different.

    So - one thing you should understand is that Hindu cosmology is different than Western Cosmology. The thing is, consciousness takes a higher place. If you are pure, then God is there.
    In fact western cosmology is the same, all naturally arising spiritual systems globally have the same ontological underlying meaning, but they have been damaged due t Christianity and modern scientific empirical education and the Eastern traditions are also under threat. In terms of mainstream religion and Modern science Cosmology is different, this has no location of east or west in geographical way, its a global epidemic.

    Krsna in his various potency can descend at any time as soon as mind hits a state of equilibrium, even for the shortest moment of time, and not when someone has become pure,Nisargadatta Maharaja was under to much stress as a householder and he became liberated, what effect this has on a person cant be measured or any external circumstances measured by the senses, this whole pure thing is a fallacy which is not true, so many devotees feel worthless because they have not reached the state of holy purity, and has led to another split debate between us and them, devotees and non devotees, was Kamsa pure, yet he was liberated.

    The underlying meaning in Bhagavata Dharma is in no matter what state of mind or being just try to remember His Name and Form, Nama and Rupa, Brahman and is Nama and Rupa is non different, one doesn't become pure then realize God. Everyone is born into different conditions but all equally have the potential in any state to be Brahman realised.

    Nam brings mind into state of equilibrium and then one's citta or mind becomes empowered by one of his shaktis, how that manifests nobody can measure. Vamsi Dasa Baba Ji would smoke ganga, walk around like a mad man, never wash the clothes of his deities and argue with them all day and scold them an refuse to cook for them if he was unhappy with them, he was an avadhuta. If the pure standard is set to high then it will deny the human part of being intrinsically imperfect.

  10. #30

    Re: New questions?

    Namaste Waterfall

    Continuing with the thread ( unhindered I hope )

    What is the Vedic God as per different to the normal Theology or mainstream theology. One of the words in sanskrit that is used is ishvara, a basic translation is ruler, but what does he rule, and where, is he an outside God ruling the outer universe. If I can borrow the first line of the Avadhuta Gita, where union with Brahman is described the opening verse says

    isvarAnugrahaAd evam

    My sanskrit etymology is not the best but here is brief translation

    isvara ~ ruler

    anu is the atomic jiva the spark of consciousness~BrahmA being the first created Jiva

    graha can mean both planet or loka and seizure, loka above planet as spheres of consciousness

    Brahman as Ishvara is seizing the anu the jiva the atomic particle of consciousness and begins to control his loka or state of being. anugraha gets translated as grace, but what is the real function of grace, in this moment the jiva only wants to be union with Brahman and loses all desire to be part of the external creation, but due to the conditions of the citta which have amounted over countless lifetimes there is a process of purification, what gets translated as yugas as time spans of lifetimes over vast amount of human years is not exactly correct, the time spans or yugas and kalpas are cosmic timescales that cant be measured by ordinary time. Srila prabhupada said that the speed of Mind is the fastest thing in the universe. Citta is extremely complex, if the ordinary atom is complex and hard to understand, just imagine how complex the citta is the atom spark of consciousness measured at 1 billionth the size of the observable atom.

    In Bhagavad Gita Krsna says when the mind is liberated Paramatma is reached, in Srimad Bhagavtam its said that all states of Aham, Brahman and descriptions of Absolute, Ishavara, Bhagavan are antariyami or indwelling, this rules out an external God and Creator of the universe. Bhagavan is Ishvara possessing all divine attributes, so God in the Vedic sense is not responsible for creation, he is anti matter liberator of all qualities and mind created states. Srimad Bhagavtam expands on the names and forms nama and rupa which are to be meditated on daily. Srila Prabhupada said that one should first get a very good understanding of the first canto of Srimad Bhavatam, before going deeper into the divine and profound teachings on God consciousness.

    The vast majority of our thoughts go unnoticed, they are to rapid and to quick our ordinary sense perception is insufficient to notice this, and only by anugraha is the citta and cosmology seen. The recommended process is training the citta, in the Bhakti Tradition of Gaudia Vaishnavism 9 processes of Bhakti are given as cittabhavanas or ways to retrain the citta into Krsna consciousness.

    A brief over view

    Srimad Bhagavatam goes through all the levels of purification of the citta. Normal sentimental religion based on Utopian ideals is not real, and does not reflect the state of the jiva who is bound by cycles of becoming.

    You said in an earlier message and that we keep reincarnating as humans

    Do you think that we reincarnate as animals? I have never understod the meaning of that? According to this book (Toward the Light) we only reincarnate as human beings and that makes sense to me.

    What happens to us after death nobody really knows, maybe only the fully realised person can see all the causes and effects of each person, whose destiny will be different, the material energy is to complex, but if one does spiritual sadhana its said they are guaranteed human birth. But I do find this interesting and due to how most reincarnation is spoken about in cosmology is that we take different physical births either as devas in higher lokas or as animals or hell beings in lower births and planets, as marginal living conditioned beings we can move from loka to loka higher or lower even in the space of one hour, the ultimate goal of Self realisation is to transcend and go beyond all the lokas.

    Personally I do not see that the cosmology of any dharma tradition is outside of the human being, the human being in 7 lower lokas states are when Brahman is not active, many humans act like or worse than animals, so its a tendency within us as human beings, hungry ghosts is also one loka, this means unsatisfied desires, no matter how much materialists gets they always want more, so all the descriptions in cosmology are within the human potentials, both devic or illuminated by Brahman expansions or asuric when Brahmans presence is inactive. Asura gets translated as demon, i think this word is a bit harsh, even the mode of goodness can be asuric if its to strengthen bodily or worldly identification for self name and fame and subtle pride, to adorn the body, asura maybe better understood as material desire, which is present in all of us, and is a hindrance, Brahman realisation is devoid of the body idea good or bad. Just recently I heard the Ramana Maharshi called the body a disease. This doesnt mean that one should falsely renounce the body, but using the body to beautify and decorate and be over concerned with health and well being is material desire.

    Lokas or states can also mix and higher lokas can mix with lower lokas to purify. So why its impossible to say what each destination and next birth will be in general the descriptions of cosmology only deal with the potentials of the human consciousness in this one lifetime, its not abstract. The general understand of karma and reincarnation of going from one gross body to another is not that accurate, its a yuki or method and logic to activate further self enquiry into the conscious being and how its made up, like cells in the body birth and death and states of being are happening on a continuous basis in this one lifespan on the most subtle level. Creation begins in the subtle.

    The Bhagavatam is very insightful on human nature and the levels of consciousness and ways of purification, bondage and liberation. In the story of the asuras and devas churning the ocean of the milk for immortality. We have two types of chromosome archetypal opposites of consciousness in our conditioned being, asura and deva, asura is our desire to be alive in this body and this world and be the lords of the world, to be free from ageing sickness and death and avoid these parts of nature, the conditioned living being is constantly trying to make adjustments on the outside to avoid ageing , sickness and death, nobody really wants to die, get sick and old, the asura is looking for material means or relying on material means to sustain this identity and body and try to keep it permanent and avoid death, the devic side of conscious being is striving towards being liberated, there is a constant battle to various degrees in each conditioned Jiva. Jiva is the soul, Brahman is not the soul, Jiva is the atomic particle of individual consciousness, Brahman is the non dual all pervading Absolute Being, that purifies both devic and asuric tendancies in consciousness. In this process Shiva spills some poison on the earth, as i have been told this poison is the message of renunciation, due to attachment of outer being nobody wants to really hear the message of tygai, due to material desires, this is how the sadhu speaks, but when that poison is ingested it becomes a source of nectar and liberation.
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 05 July 2019 at 08:33 PM.

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