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Thread: hare krishna mahamantra

  1. #21

    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Namaste Gopal
    Yes, excellent point.

    There are two important things to keep in mind, - not committing sins on the strength of the Holy Name, and not preaching to the faithless.

    I.e., if someone has not faith, we should not preach to them,...

    And it's also not okay to do anything we wish.

    One place we can always look for answers is the Bhagavatam.. for instance Prahlada Maharaja.

    Bhagavatam is full of wisdom for many questions asked here (for example as to why is not okay to harm even insects.)
    Gam Gam Ganapati
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2mXQjrK1bwQ

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  2. #22

    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Quote Originally Posted by Shantanu View Post
    A fundamental concept is ahimsa or non-violence. It is the core of Hindu religion and philosophy and central to Sanatan Dharma. Any compromise that a person makes is purely self-serving and negates the Hindu tradition in its entirety.

    So killing even a blood sucking mosquito is not permitted by the eternal religion that I subscribe to as part of the Yamas and Niyamas of Yogashastras.
    there can be compromises but it depends upon kala desha pata

    not all places have the luxury to choose their diets in Tibet they live in harsh conditions where it’s almost impossible to grow food also on many costal regions they can’t grow or farm so have to survive on fish

    in inner city slums where people have no money they rely on poultry, what do you suggest for these people do you suggest they starve and die or maybe they should be punished

    its very easy to dictate if ones own personal circumstances are secure although now with. C19 that paper thin security is under threat and people are thrown into panic and desperation

    Do you eat rice grains vegetables if so then you are responsible for the mass killing of insects that live in the ground

    do you drive a car catch the bus or train again if yes you are responsible for the killing of many living beings

    who is to say that a vegetable is less or more than an an insect so what does Ahimsa mean

    myself I am a vegan and I have set up free food distribution programmes and actively promote ahimsa diets but I think that many vegans are very fanatical and self righteous

    on the banks of ganga poor people who have no money no job can’t pay for education they fish and thank the divine mother for sustenances and giving them life there consciousness is with the mother Ganga

    many vegans and vegetarians have much more negative impact on the environment in modern society with sophisticated meals so who has more ahimsa who is more grateful to mata

    I can give countless examples that kala desha pata with wisdom is more higher practice which may involve even cutting off someone’s head or hanging as an act of ahimsa and false moral religious principles act more as emotional himsa

    siya rama

  3. #23
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    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Quote Originally Posted by timetraveler View Post
    Namaste Gopal
    Yes, excellent point.

    There are two important things to keep in mind, - not committing sins on the strength of the Holy Name, and not preaching to the faithless.

    I.e., if someone has not faith, we should not preach to them,...

    And it's also not okay to do anything we wish.

    One place we can always look for answers is the Bhagavatam.. for instance Prahlada Maharaja.

    Bhagavatam is full of wisdom for many questions asked here (for example as to why is not okay to harm even insects.)
    Namaste Gopal

    We all know very well that gaudiya maths including iskcon headed by bhakti vinod thakur and bhakti sidhanta saraswati thakur advocate against meat eating or non veg. we also know very well that gaudiya vaishnabism of mahaprabhu shri chaitanya rooted in Bengal and unlike north Indian, Bengalis are very much fond of fish . so I think its not a easy job for bengali families to sacrifice such important part of their lives when they are initiated in iskcon or any other gaudiya maths. In such a background , I have noticed in a book written by one of the greatest vaishnavas of mahaprabhu chaitanya’s line, Narottam Das thakur that one does lose his vaishnavatta if he eats fish.

    This declaration of Narottam Das thakur whom iskcon also conveys due respect made me to believe that fish was not untouchable to the Bengali vaishnavas of that period. I am not interested in drawing any line of division between himsa and ahimsa or eating veg and non veg. I think himsa is as much related to plant killing for preparation of our food as much it is for animal killing . If we consider only killing of animal for non veg preparation is himsa and killing of live plants for veg preparation is ahimsa, we are not doing the right job here. Regarding food I only follow the Gita which does not say anything on plant or animal. Gita verses 7 to 10 of chapter XVI says “ three kinds of food conforming to sattvic, rajasic and tamasic nature. (i) Sattvic food which enhance life force, energy, strength, health and cheerfulness, which are sweet, bland, nourishing and pleasant are dear to those of sattvic nature. (ii) Rajasic food which are bitter , sour, salty, over hot, pungent, dry and burning, which cause pain, grief and disease are dear to those of rajasic nature. (iii) Tamasic food which cooked overnight, insipid, putried, stale, left over and impure is dear to those of tamasic nature”. So shri Krishna is very much categorical about our food which is different to match our nature only. He neither mentions the word ‘ non veg or animal and veg or plant’ as our ideal food but here we are doing just opposite of what shri bhagavan says in Gita. We all must accept that shri Krishna is very much aware of the fact that food for human is obtained from both animal and plant. He could have mentioned about ideal food from plant only if he had not supported animal food which is said to have an act of himsa . why shri Krishna is not categorical on food from plant only which is said to have ahimsa . When shri Krishna himself has not categorized our food as animal and plant, who are we to decide between right or wrong on veg or non veg . The fact of the matter is We take food guided by our very nature only.

    Another more point I want to make here . fish plays very important role in bengali’s life right from birth of to death. Without fish and pan Bengali ‘s rituals are incomplete. Display of size of the fish in the bengali marriage ceremony does a matter. Bengali observes shradhya after death followed by one ceremony called MATSHYAMUKHI , eating of fish. such is the importance of fish in the life of a Bengali and that Bengal is the root place where gaudiya vaishnavism started its journey. Does it mean that Bengalis are following himsa when fish is part and parcel of their lives ?
    Last edited by jopmala; 24 March 2020 at 09:10 AM.

  4. #24

    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Dandavats pranams jop mala prabhuji

    without going into the various cultural traditions of bengal do you ever consider or is it a consideration that the words of the thakurs gets mistranslated and brought into a lower field of consciousness

    vada is supramental Vak vAc so when narottama das thakur is speaking of fish matsya is there not a more esoteric meaning behind it in the cosmic realm where the avatar of Vishnu is appearing in the mind

    mind is considered to be element of water and fish swim in water

    Veda has to be consistent and always of the same nature and in speech sound vak of the vaishnava who lives is sound shabda Brahma it also has to align with Veda



    • The Rig Veda 1.164.45 says “catvari vak parimita padani tani vidur brahmana ye minishinah, guha trini nihita neengayanti turiyam vaco manushya vadanti” (i.e. The cognoscenti know of the Vak that exists in four forms . Three are hidden and the fourth is what men speak)

    Taking the teachings of the Acharya’s in a mundane way is the cause of much misunderstandings

    if things are taken as literal then we may as well say that matsyendranath was actually born from a fish

    Hare Krsna

  5. #25

    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    You can make any mental jugglery you want but there is no defense for eating flesh.
    Gam Gam Ganapati
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2mXQjrK1bwQ

    Dattavani.org
    https://dattavani.org/pravachana-malika/datta-vaakya/

  6. #26
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    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Quote Originally Posted by timetraveler View Post
    You can make any mental jugglery you want but there is no defense for eating flesh.
    Pranam


    If meat eating is himsa then Ram and Lakshman were also involved in himsa because they used to hunt animal particularly deer and eat its flesh. And In the Mahabharata Panch Pandava while in exile hunted animal for their livelihood . yagnas which were performed with animal sacrifice was also involved himsa. Ram Krishna param hansa was so great spiritual master but never tried to stop animal sacrifice in the Dakshineswar Kali temple. Was he a supporter of himsa ? even swami Vivekananda supported non veg. was he supporter of himsa. Every killing is not considered himsa.
    I shall quote from Bhagavatam

    Verse 9/6/
    (6) king Ikshvâku, once during ashthaka-s'râddha ordered his son: 'Oh Vikukshi, bring me pure flesh [as acquired by hunting]. Go for it right now without delay.'

    (7)And so he went to the forest to kill animals suitable for the oblations, but when he was fatigued and hungry the hero ate a rabbit . (8)He offered what had remained to his father who in his turn asked their guru [Vasishthha] to purify it. He replied: 'All this is polluted and unfit for use.'

    (9)Thus being informed by the spiritual master, the ruler understood what his son had done. Out of anger that he had violated the vidhi, he consequently sent him out of the country. Is it himsa ?

    VERSE 11.5.13

    yad ghrāṇa-bhakṣo vihitaḥ surāyās
    tathā paśor ālabhanaṁ na hiṁsā
    evaṁ vyavāyaḥ prajayā na ratyā
    imaṁ viśuddhaṁ na viduḥ sva-dharmam


    According to the Vedic injunctions, when wine is offered in sacrificial ceremonies it is later to be consumed by smelling, and not by drinking. Similarly, the sacrificial offering of animals is permitted, but there is no provision for wide-scale animal slaughter. (Translation by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada)


    VERSE 4.26.6
    tīrtheṣu pratidṛṣṭeṣu
    rājā medhyān paśūn vane
    yāvad-artham alaṁ lubdho
    hanyād iti niyamyate


    If a king is too attracted to eating flesh, he may, according to the directions of the revealed scriptures on sacrificial performances, go to the forest and kill some animals that are recommended for killing. One is not allowed to kill animals unnecessarily or without restrictions. The Vedas regulate animal-killing to stop the extravagance of foolish men influenced by the modes of passion and ignorance.

    Madhvācārya has given the following statement in regard to animal sacrifice:

    yajñeṣv ālabhanaḿ proktaḿ
    devatoddeśataḥ paśoḥ
    himsā nāma tad-anyatra
    tasmāt tāḿ nācared budhaḥ
    yato yajñe mṛtā ūrdhvaḿ
    yānti deve ca paitṛke
    ato lābhād ālabhanaḿ
    svargasya na tu māraṇam


    According to this statement, the Vedas sometimes prescribe animal sacrifice in ritual performances for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord or a particular demigod. If, however, one whimsically slaughters animals without rigidly following the Vedic prescriptions, such killing is actual violence and should not be accepted by any intelligent person. If the animal sacrifice is perfectly performed, the sacrificed animal immediately goes to the heavenly planets of the demigods and the forefathers. Therefore such a sacrifice is not for killing animals but for demonstrating the potency of Vedic mantras, by the power of which the sacrificed creature is immediately promoted to a higher situation.

    For your kind information, Bhakti Vinod thakur also confessed to his son that he ate meat and fish at some state of his life. Spiritual attachment is not the only factor for food selection. Rice and fish are found in abundance in Bengal province and so these are naturally selected food of the people of that province . why do you take medicine to kill virus or bacteria in your body. Why don’t you let them to eat you for the sake of ahimsa ? They have also lives and deserved to live in your body . Do you know when you kill plants for your food how many insects also die with them. Is it not himsa ? you drink cow milk that not produced for you but her calves only ? you should be ashamed of drinking cows milk by snaching from her calves. Is it not himsa ? those vaishnavas who eat fish you will call them karta bhaja or sahajiya etc etc. I hear about vaishnavas who are not fish eater but indulge in such heinous act which can not be expressed in black and while but in the eyes of many of us they enjoy great respect as maharaja etc . why so much double standard ? By the way, these are facts not mental jugglery , you can verify.

  7. #27
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    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    there can be compromises but it depends upon kala desha pata

    not all places have the luxury to choose their diets in Tibet they live in harsh conditions where it’s almost impossible to grow food also on many costal regions they can’t grow or farm so have to survive on fish

    in inner city slums where people have no money they rely on poultry, what do you suggest for these people do you suggest they starve and die or maybe they should be punished

    its very easy to dictate if ones own personal circumstances are secure although now with. C19 that paper thin security is under threat and people are thrown into panic and desperation

    Do you eat rice grains vegetables if so then you are responsible for the mass killing of insects that live in the ground

    do you drive a car catch the bus or train again if yes you are responsible for the killing of many living beings

    who is to say that a vegetable is less or more than an an insect so what does Ahimsa mean

    myself I am a vegan and I have set up free food distribution programmes and actively promote ahimsa diets but I think that many vegans are very fanatical and self righteous

    on the banks of ganga poor people who have no money no job can’t pay for education they fish and thank the divine mother for sustenances and giving them life there consciousness is with the mother Ganga

    many vegans and vegetarians have much more negative impact on the environment in modern society with sophisticated meals so who has more ahimsa who is more grateful to mata

    I can give countless examples that kala desha pata with wisdom is more higher practice which may involve even cutting off someone’s head or hanging as an act of ahimsa and false moral religious principles act more as emotional himsa

    siya rama
    Pranam markandeya 108 dasa


    May it so happen that thakur was not a fish eater but some sect of vaishnava parampara support eating of fish and thakur tried to defend them only or may be you are right in saying that taking the teachings of the acharaya in a mundane way is the cause of misunderstandings but yes I have taken the thing literally. Actually getting the remarks of thakur on fish eating , I have found some solace because opposing of fish eating is more aggressive and thakur is “ some one in particular” to talk in the favour of fish eating as far as gadiya vaishnava practice is concerned . Truly speaking I am not meat eater but I eat onion and garlic. I do not agree that vaishanav can not eat fish only because it is said to have involved some kind of himsa. In fact so called gadiya Vaishnavas found in doing many acts in day to day life which also involves himsa in some way or other . why that himsa is not considered for spiritual progress is a matter of confusion. Actually from my heart I am not a supporter of eating fish for the satisfaction of my taste. In this regard I personally respect your considered view that himsa or ahimsa depends on desh kal and patra.

  8. #28

    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Pranams jop mala prabhuji
    desha kala patra is of most importance

    a few examples within vaishnava tradition

    srila bhaktisiddhanta when building his math engages all the local people without discrimination in construction and set up two kitchens one veg one non veg

    purpose to engage them in seva and see long term spiritual goals and not divide who can and who cannot do seva

    before leaving for America Srila Prabhupada was asked what he would eat in a land that only ate meat and his reply was that he would eat meat if he had to if it meant spreading Hari nam

    two disciples of Srila Prabhupada were sent to Russia and China to start preachings activities both asked what they would eat and Srila Prabhupada said eat meat if you have too but preach and establish sangha

    Sri Ramanuja Acharya engaged dacoits and gunda to build temples and they all became pure devotees

    desha kala patra is vision of the wise mundane religious puritans can’t see their own small mindedness

    this is easy to see when these 3 factors are taken into account for understanding environment and current situations which are constantly changing but karuna to engage conditions souls is unchanging

    sadly religion dictates time place and environment

    fixed views means lack of experience and compassion and it’s easy to dictate diet when one has never had to worry where their next meal comes from and it makes me wonder if the luxuries taken away from them how that would effect their view when a few days go past and they have no money or shops to buy their next meal

    also religious rule followers give more importance to rules than people. And from what I have seen those that demand these rules are often previous meat eaters and think god consciousness is only for pure people this in itself is himsa to deny compassion and make religious segregation like believers unbelievers faith and faithless which is all based on wartime Abrahamic religious control methods sword in one hand fake love in the other

  9. #29
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    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Pranams jop mala prabhuji
    desha kala patra is of most importance

    a few examples within vaishnava tradition

    srila bhaktisiddhanta when building his math engages all the local people without discrimination in construction and set up two kitchens one veg one non veg

    purpose to engage them in seva and see long term spiritual goals and not divide who can and who cannot do seva

    before leaving for America Srila Prabhupada was asked what he would eat in a land that only ate meat and his reply was that he would eat meat if he had to if it meant spreading Hari nam

    two disciples of Srila Prabhupada were sent to Russia and China to start preachings activities both asked what they would eat and Srila Prabhupada said eat meat if you have too but preach and establish sangha

    Sri Ramanuja Acharya engaged dacoits and gunda to build temples and they all became pure devotees

    desha kala patra is vision of the wise mundane religious puritans can’t see their own small mindedness

    this is easy to see when these 3 factors are taken into account for understanding environment and current situations which are constantly changing but karuna to engage conditions souls is unchanging

    sadly religion dictates time place and environment

    fixed views means lack of experience and compassion and it’s easy to dictate diet when one has never had to worry where their next meal comes from and it makes me wonder if the luxuries taken away from them how that would effect their view when a few days go past and they have no money or shops to buy their next meal

    also religious rule followers give more importance to rules than people. And from what I have seen those that demand these rules are often previous meat eaters and think god consciousness is only for pure people this in itself is himsa to deny compassion and make religious segregation like believers unbelievers faith and faithless which is all based on wartime Abrahamic religious control methods sword in one hand fake love in the other
    Pranam

    I do agree with you 100%

  10. #30

    Re: hare krishna mahamantra

    Once again absolute opposite.

    People might then question, but I am not actually killing the animal but just eating, is that wrong too?

    The Manu Samhita scriptures tells us that all the people get the reaction for being involved with meat:-

    Naakrtvaa praaninaam himsaam maamsamutpadyate kvachit. Na cha praanivadhah svargyastamaanmaamsam vivarjayet. (MS 5.48)

    Anumantaa vishasitaa nihantaa krayavikrayii. Samskartaa chopahartaa cha khaadakashchetighaatakaah (MS 5.51)

    Flesh of animals is obtained only after killing him, which is a sin, and the killer of animals never enters the celestial abode.

    All those involved in killing, consenting the killing, helping the killing, carrying, selling, buying, cooking and eating the meat of an animal are equally sinful as the killing of that animal.

    The person who eats meat is also encouraging and in one sense supporting the killing. For example if few dacoits goes to rob a house, and one stands outside the house to look out and other few dacoits steal from the house, if they get caught everyone will be punished by the laws, because the person who was outside was also supporting the crime. Similarly, one who eats meat is also involved and is liable for punishment.

    Plants and Vegetables are also living being is it not a sin to kill them for food too?

    This explanation is given in Srimad Bhagavatam (3.29.15) purport by the founder Srila Prabhupada:

    “Sometimes the question is put before us: “You ask us not to eat meat, but you are eating vegetables. Do you think that is not violence?” The answer is that eating vegetables is violence, and vegetarians are also committing violence against other living entities because vegetables also have life. Non-devotees are killing cows, goats and so many other animals for eating purposes, and a devotee, who is vegetarian, is also killing. But here, significantly, it is stated that every living entity has to live by killing another entity; that is the law of nature. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam: one living entity is the life for another living entity. But for a human being, that violence should be committed only as much as necessary.

    A human being is not to eat anything which is not offered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yajna-sistasinah santah: one becomes freed from all sinful reactions by eating foodstuffs which are offered to Yajna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. A devotee therefore eats only prasada, or foodstuffs offered to the Supreme Lord, and Krishna says that when a devotee offers Him foodstuffs from the vegetable kingdom, with devotion, He eats that. A devotee is to offer to Krishna foodstuffs prepared from vegetables. If the Supreme Lord wanted foodstuffs prepared from animal food, the devotee could offer this, but He does not order to do that.”

    So yes even plants and vegetables have souls and killing them unnecessarily and for personal sense gratification causes sin, that’s why it is recommended to offer the vegetarian food to Lord Krishna first then later eat that food as Prashadam or mercy. Lord Krishna can do anything so he transforms the food offered to him into spiritual food, this will free us from sin and karmic reactions.

    Eating only food offered to Krishna is the ultimate perfection of the vegetarian diet. After all, pigeons and monkeys are also vegetarian, so becoming a vegetarian is not in itself the greatest of accomplishments. The Vedas inform us that the purpose of human life is to reawaken the soul to its relationship with God, and only when we go beyond vegetarianism to prasada can our eating be helpful in achieving this goal.

    Cardinal Danielou: But why does God create some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation, it seems.

    Srila Prabhupada: It is not a fault. God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He’ll give you full facility. God will give you the body of a tiger in your next life so that you can eat flesh very freely. “Why are you maintaining slaughterhouses? I’ll give you fangs and claws. Now eat.” So the meat-eaters are awaiting such punishment. The animal-eaters become tigers, wolves, cats, and dogs in their next life–to get more facility.”


    https://iskcondesiretree.com/page/wh...th-eating-meat
    Gam Gam Ganapati
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2mXQjrK1bwQ

    Dattavani.org
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