Raasa Leela and Achintya Bedhabedha tattwa

[grames]

Namaste,

Nice thread and appreciate the questions and answers. But, wanted to say a few words.

The influence of "Advaita" is so powerful that, every philosophical and bhakthi school adulterates their own understanding and brings in reference from "Advaita" standpoint as their explanation. This adulteration is not helpful as it will dilute the strength and truth of the actual philosophy of the school of thought.

Acintya BedAbeda - Inconceivable Oneness and difference - Start with the prefix as the most critical part ( as there are schools which adhere to BedAbeda as the tatwa ) - Acintya - Not possible to conceive this mystery in its fullness by anyone (any individual ever - except Lord Krishna)

Beda - or Bedham ( For Vraja) - means differences - Differences between three vastu or entities or substances - Brahman , Jiva and Jada - Is real and perceivable.
Abeda - or Abdeham - means non-difference ( Not oneness as we rush to mean this) - Non-Difference - on a qualified platform - In the state of elevated consciousness, bhava and relationship ( Not all relationships shares the same bhava or ruchi)
Now, the important point is this word BedAbeda - The philosophy is saying it is simultaneously experiencing oneness and difference - It's not absolute oneness ( that will make it pure or kevala advaitam) or absolute Bedha ( there is no school that teaches pure differences - not even the school of TattvaVada) - It's both, at once on inconceivable terms and platform. Even saying Qualitatively one and quantitatively different itself is not an absolute explanation of this Tattwa.

There is no Nirguna Brahman - in this school and such wordplays are not accepted or appreciated in this philosophy.

Krishna is that ultimate Absolute Paripoorna - and all the relationship is with this Sat Chit Ananda Vigraha - The bhava and bliss are experienced not just by the Chit - but also due to the Rasa/Bhava with the Vigraha - Personality of Krishna. Krishna fills the 5 liters can of Jiva with 5 liters of Nector and 50 liters can of the jiva with 50 liters of Nector. Now, on the basis of fulfillment, all jivas are experiencing the Fullness or completeness - but on the basis of measurement - they do still have differences ( 5 is different from 50). Krishna's capacity is unlimited - and He is always full ( like an ocean of Nector).

Acintya BedAbeda - Since all of them now filled with Nector, they are all in oneness on the idea of having the nectar to their capacity - Their quantity of nectar is different as 5, or 50 or infinite. Both these status are real and also a fact at the same time - thus simultaneously it is real and also a fact (BedAbeda - BedamAbedham).

Build your thought and devotion with the right fundamentals so that the joy of understanding and faith will improve very quickly.

Hare Krishna.

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste Gramesji

My first input on this thread was -- Purushottam ParamAtmA se prem karke to dekho --- then what has to be experienced will be experienced, and that also first hand without dogma

Certainly the differences are their, I am calling them a spectrum-Kaleidoscope within Purushottam ParamAtmA (KRshNa).

Bhaktas are not interested in kevala oneness (in bhav... even if ontologically there are the varieties).

Where I personally diverge, involuntarily, is this service to Radha which is an introduction by the Nimbarka and GauDiya groups. PushTi Marg does not do that but they have their own channel.

My question to the VaishNav is Who is your ArAdhya exactly? KRshNa? or Radha ? Have you considered, if you were to meet KRshNa first, what path He wants you to be on rather that what the acharyas say you are supposed to think and feel?
Also, bhajan carries over from past lives so it cannot be molded any other way.


_/\_

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Hare Krsna Grames and Ameyatma Prabhu's ,

I have only quickly read both posts at a quick glance this morning , i do mean to get back to them, maybe in a couple of days from now due to time and to give it the correct attention it deserves.

All the Vada or oral traditions of the sampradayas are Bhagavata Dharma, there are no differences, Adi Shankara is also Bhagavat there are all advaita, philosophical distinctions are man made and problematic and destroythe true nectar of vada, oral tradition or shabda brahma, shabda pramana.

One thing i am not clear on is Grames is when you say

There is no Nirguna Brahman - in this school and such wordplays are not accepted or appreciated in this philosophy.

Before i answer i really dont know what you mean by this, what school and which philosophy, Krsna is always Nirguna, any transcendental realization is nirguna, nirguna brahman and nirguna bhakti are totally inclusive and includes saguna, both nirguna and saguna are transcendent above the mundane, this is also acintya, so how can schools or philosophies even approach this. I have always struggled with philosophical differences and naming siddhanta and vada as schools, although i accept that there is uniqueness in all realizations but that does not mean they are separated by so called schools and philosophy.

There is always constant churning of nectar and unlimited ever fresh discovery within all lila. In the rasa lila each gopi thought that Krsna considered them the most special, each Gopi had unique rasa and bhava with krsna and each one considered their dance with krsna as the highest, yet he was with them all equally.


Ameyatma Ji,

My question to the VaishNav is Who is your ArAdhya exactly? KRshNa? or Radha ? Have you considered, if you were to meet KRshNa first, what path He wants you to be on rather that what the acharyas say you are supposed to think and feel?

Yes exactly, and everything will be self evident if one has contact with krsna. there will be no need for any external guidance or telling what to think, only antariyami and the true union with acharyas is within this realisation, also it seems Bhagavad Gita answers this perfectly on what path Krsna wants the seeker to be on. I can give many references if needed

While i don't associate strictly to any sampradaya, acintya bheda abheda, according to Gaudiya is non other than Sri Krsna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, it is Divine Being, a perfect combination of Radha and Krsna in one consciousness, what ever expands or is unified from that consciousness is of the same nature.

I only read the latest post briefly and answered in a bit of rush, so if i missed any points or misunderstood i can catch up next time.

Hare Krsna

Dandavats

[grames]

Namaste AmeyAtma ji,

Krishna's prema svaRupa is Radha - directly or indirectly we all are approaching Him through the grace of Radha only.

Hare Krishna

[grames]

Namaste ji,

All the Vada or oral traditions of the sampradayas are Bhagavata Dharma, there are no differences

This not true and it is only for those who wants to be politically correct or those who do not know the actual details of more than one Vedantic Darshanas or even one fully. The acharyas do acknowledge that, different darshanas are made to differnt types of souls so that they can enjoy following them.

Your confusion about Nirguna and Saguna - must be a question. These words do not have big place in any other darshana other than Advaita. For Vaishnavas, Krishna is sat cit ananda and Vigraha ( Vighraha means, person with all the infinite number of *auspicious gunas in unlimited quality - to put it in the same words - the Ultimate is Saguna and there is nothing more to it. Nirguna is least important word - where it can only mean - the Guna that are material and not attached but manifested and ruled over by the Great Lord)

Uniqness but not seperated - That is super contradiction. If two things are unique, they cannot be same at the same time - they must be seperated and different isn't?

Let me not drag this thread to unrelated topics - in nutshell, philosophical treaties are for two purposes 1. To guide you 2. To validate or verify if your experience is right and genuine. They cannot be same for practice or can produce same results and they are UNIQUE as you rightly stated.

Hare Krishna

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste

All the Vada or oral traditions of the sampradayas are Bhagavata Dharma, there are no differences, Adi Shankara is also Bhagavat there are all advaita, philosophical distinctions are man made and problematic and destroythe true nectar of vada, oral tradition or shabda brahma, shabda pramana.
...
There is always constant churning of nectar and unlimited ever fresh discovery within all lila. In the rasa lila each gopi thought that Krsna considered them the most special, each Gopi had unique rasa and bhava with krsna and each one considered their dance with krsna as the highest, yet he was with them all equally.
...
Yes exactly, and everything will be self evident if one has contact with krsna. there will be no need for any external guidance or telling what to think, only antariyami and the true union with acharyas is within this realisation, also it seems Bhagavad Gita answers this perfectly on what path Krsna wants the seeker to be on.

All good points. Yes, experience says the acharyas tailor to the seeker, desh-kaal-patra , beyond what they have to write in books, and I am in alignment with them.

I only read the latest post briefly and answered in a bit of rush, so if i missed any points or misunderstood i can catch up next time.

You did not misunderstand anything.

praNAm

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Hare Krsna Grames,

This not true and it is only for those who wants to be politically correct or those who do not know the actual details of more than one Vedantic Darshanas or even one fully. The acharyas do acknowledge that, different darshanas are made to different types of souls so that they can enjoy following them.

What i mean by no differences is that they do not conflict, not that they are identical in every respect at all times, they overlap and ultimately arrive at the same destination. Dristi is very important for our day to day or moment to moment awareness on current states and how to deal with them, certain levels of the teachings will apply to certain levels of the mind, this is an important part of sadhana, intellectual view or philosophical view is not dristi, without dristi there is no dharshan which is visionary to the sadhaka into ones true being, into the nature of consciousness. Dristi is insight into the present moment state of mind or consciousness, there are many layers and conditions in the mind, and there are vast multidimensional lokas and then there is complete infinity, unbounded, beyond any description.

The Acharya's have diversity of teachings, as i said in earlier post diversity and multidimensional consciousness and the various vada do not have to be conflicting with each other, consciousness is one but with unlimited creative potential, the way the Acharyas have been set up almost like Greek philosopher's each with a unique view on the Absolute is far from what the Acharays teach which is dealing directly with the states of mind and its upaya whatever that maybe, and all concluding one way or another that Brahman and Parabrahman is the ultimate Reality, with our consciousness being without any duality or difference to that Realization of Brahman and Parabrahman, diversity does not mean difference.

Your confusion about Nirguna and Saguna - must be a question

I don't have any confusion, since this thread is on acintya bheda abheda tattva, commonly associated with Sri Chaitanya you will be hard pushed to find anyone who does not agree that Sri Krsna is Nirguna within Gaudiya Vaishnava traditions, we as Brahman are also Nirguna and the connection is through Nirguna Bhakti, what seems to be more of some confusion is what is saguna, saguna brahman is the creative potency ( shakti ) of Nirguna Brahman, so there cant be any difference between them, nirguna is that which never falls into or becomes under the influence of illusion and limitations, like oil never mixes water, even though oil may seem to be floating in water, this is why Sri krsna wears a peacock feather, which symbolizes that he is Nirguna. I understand the intellectual arguments with modern advaita Vedanta that Nirguna is formless and without any attributes but again this is only a philosophical view, not transcendental dharsan~vision (divya chakshu).


On the relative mental, intellectual and bodily level there are Real differences, false hopes and ideas are built on this and separation, confusion are the result, no real insight is possible when these conditioned differences are embedded in the mind. Vedanta or any of the Vada's will only be a idea, a view, a theory, something learned by memory and some form of accepted logic, akin to monotonous mundane religious views and sectarianism, the variety of this is unending layers of avidya. Vedanta as a conscious awakening is free from this and the Acharya's all come from the conscious awakening and guide whoever seeks their guidance into that Realization, into union to share what they are experiencing.

you dont have to accept , i am fine with that, i have had enough experience and association to know what i say albeit not perfectly presented is fully inline with ancient vedanta.

Hare Krsna

Dandavats

[grames]

Namaste,

Interesting and i do appreciate and also admire your personal faith and understanding. But i hope and believe, you dont mean to project it as the view of Gaudiyas or any other authentic vaishnava schools.

What i mean by no differences is that they do not conflict, not that they are identical in every respect at all times, they overlap and ultimately arrive at the same destination

When you declare this, its normal to question such declaration. Two disagreements with your statement - 1. Its not true that they dont conflict - Dharshanas have fundamental differences and conflicting views in every aspects from the idea of entities, their existence, reality of existance and then the final destination 2. All the sadhana do not lead to the same final destination - the actual understanding and also sound one is - your sadhana results in the most eligible destination you deserve. So, the ULTIMATE here is, whats is ULTIMATE for the practising soul ( as in soul with 5 liter capacity is full with 5 litre of nectar).

The original Acintya BedAbeda must be understood - not interpreted with your personal bias or taste - as per the Gaudiya school - where this philosophy is the fundamental requirement for the sadhaka and so why these many messages.

Hare Krshna

[Viraja]

Namaste all,

Just adding a quick note just to appreciate the value of this discussion. I don't have anything to add value to this profound conversation rather than exclaiming about an observation or two.

(i) Grames ji: Your note that achintyabedhabedha values the experience of everyone, one is who 50, as well as one who is 500 (or 5000), as long as anandha (bliss) is concerned and that their experience is wholesome no matter the state of their being is well noted by me. This is what Markandeya ji referred to as 'poornamadha poornamidha' in his earlier note. That is, the individual may be an ordinary gopa filled with love, or it may be a saintly soul, but the bliss they feel when entranced with the divine opulence of prema bakthi is wholesome, relative of what. I thank you for this!

(ii) AmeyAtma ji: I'm sorry for delayed response, as I failed to come here the past several days. You have added so much value to the conversation. One observation of yours - Yes, it is indeed correct to not try to delineate or decipher the divine bliss in words. But on 2 occasions this is permissible, I feel. One, when the shastra or anubhava is questioned and untrue words are interpreted, totally out of context. I'm referring to a local politician of TN state misrepresenting Rasa Leela in something that it is not. Secondly, talking about anandha, might not make the speaker experience the bliss, but yet, it elevates him to a mood of joy! It is this joy I'm seeking, you might say. Your profound wisdom-filled replies add so much clarity to the conversation. I look forward to communicating much more with you, and learn from you, on this platform!

Thanks to all.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste,

Interesting and i do appreciate and also admire your personal faith and understanding. But i hope and believe, you dont mean to project it as the view of Gaudiyas or any other authentic vaishnava schools.


When you declare this, its normal to question such declaration. Two disagreements with your statement - 1. Its not true that they dont conflict - Dharshanas have fundamental differences and conflicting views in every aspects from the idea of entities, their existence, reality of existance and then the final destination 2. All the sadhana do not lead to the same final destination - the actual understanding and also sound one is - your sadhana results in the most eligible destination you deserve. So, the ULTIMATE here is, whats is ULTIMATE for the practising soul ( as in soul with 5 liter capacity is full with 5 litre of nectar).

The original Acintya BedAbeda must be understood - not interpreted with your personal bias or taste - as per the Gaudiya school - where this philosophy is the fundamental requirement for the sadhaka and so why these many messages.

Hare Krshna

I don't have any faith, seems like a gamble, time is to short for minds whims, for better or worse i only speak from my own experience and insight, why have faith, shraddha is not faith.

Each Dharshana leads to the same result and that is consciousness, the dristi varies on the view of each dharshan, consciousness is one, viewing different level , each six visions from that same consciousness via the Pratyaksha of the rishi, whether it samkhya or vedanta is the same, purva mimamsa leads to knowledge of brahman, rishis are not aware of intellectual division or mundane ideas that are man made and based on philosophy, they are not philosophers, in fact philosophy doesnt exist in dharshan, they only have clear Pratyaksha of the reality as it is without modification of mental and intellectual conditioning, due to being Brahman. I completely reject the conflicting idea of the six philosophical of six dharshans as separate philosophical views which is intellectual property only, it has no idea what is rishi or personal experience into any dharshana.

You seem to think i have my own version of Gaudiya Vaishnava, i can under why, but go to Odhisha, while i am still learning and far to go a place with no final destination due to Brahman always expanding, you can ask others, you will find native bhaktas where i learned and lived with for 4 months, and very good association of high level sadhus outside of the crowds, and they have no idea of the western Indology and intellectual view of Shad Dharshana, and if you said sri krsna is not nirguna they will look at your confused. Maybe if you heard the same thing from a native it would have a different impact on the intellect and perception. Funny ting perception, it clouds the mind more often than not. I don't see any relation between theology and Vedanta, only when it refutes it to protect its own integrity.

Hare Krsna